Legal Question

[BlackDwarf]

Hey peeps.

Bit of a legal question I suppose, see if i can get any sense.

I bought a laptop from Currys (problem number 1) on the 23rd November at a store in Devon (I was home for my dads 50th), it was partially for my course, and partially for xmas, so, it stayed at home, in its box, until I came home for christmas on the 19th of Dec, and subsequently opened it on xmas day. A possible problem here is it was a store display model (I didn't recieve any discount), and, as such, I suppose, was sold 'as seen'.

Ok, thats all fine, except since I've been using it, and actually, since I first used it, its had a brightness dimming issue with the LCD (looks like the inverter on the CCFLs behind the LCD are going), it dims in steps, randomly (the best kind of issue), and rather annoyingly. I also noticed a small raised plastic area next to the status LEDs on the palm rest of it. Upon inspection by myself (and an independent laptop repair center, who i'll get back onto soon), it seems whenever it was manufactured, an incorrect size screw was used, tightened too much, and has pushed the plastic from underneath.

I've taken the laptop into my local branch in Brighton, and they've told me I had 28 days from the date of purchase (23/11) despite me not using it till the 25/12. So they won't let me exchange it in store, mainly because they need proof that I didn't cause the damage on the palm rest (being IT, why on earth would I).

So. The manager of Brighton Currys told me to do anything instore, they'd need an engineers report from The Tech Guys (*sigh*) regarding the screen, and the damage issue. He said I could go to Hove PC World, and get one from the Tech Guys there. Its not an easy trip without a car. So I go. I get told thats bollocks, and told to get lost, and go to the independent laptop repairs store closeby for a report. Engineer sees, knows exactly whats up, but can't report anything, as technically, he can't prove I didn't do it. I also get quoted £40 for LCD warranty repair from Toshiba, and a £70 quotation for the palm rest assembly.

I choose to investigate the Tech Guys booking it in to send it off for repair, but the damage is a no-no, despite it being there from purchase. Courier was supposed to pick it up on monday. Did a ninja attempt, managed to drop a card (I was in all day, he must have been watching while I went to get a cuppa). Pissed off, I call them up, its ok, they'll retry between 8 and 12 Tuesday. Again, I sit watching Jeremy Kyle (actually Airport and Ray Mears) like a poof staring out of my window. I have to go to work for 1, and leave the house at 12 undelivered, with my laptop, and I'm gonna get it fixed with laptop repairs, professionally and efficiently (should now have it back by Friday, Monday latest)

Soooo, if you're still reading, I purchased a faulty product, Currys refused to exchange it, and due to an incompetent tech support line and couriers, due to me needing it urgently for my imminently starting course, I've had to pay to get it fixed. Can I make Currys pay for their inadequacy in dealing with this issue? Where do I stand from a legal point of view?

Thanks for (possibly) reading. Help would be greatly appreciated.

[Saracen]

Well, in my opinion (and it is just an opinion) it sounds like Curry's are talking from that well-known place where the sun don't shine.

Firstly, "sold as seen" is effectively meaningless (or close to it) when a business sells to a consumer. It does NOT void your statutory rights. If they wereto suggest it does, talk to Trading Standards.

Secondly, they don't have to be able to prove that any damage wasn't caused by you. They have to be able to prove that it was, if the product is less than 6 months old, and in this case, it clearly is.

Unfortunately, you've probably lost your first potential course of action, which is to reject the goods completely and insist on a full refund. To do that, you have to act within a "reasonable period". How long that is will vary, but it's usually pretty quickly. I doubt you could still do that.

But, after that expires, you are still entitled to expect that goods will comply with the Sale of Goods Act, in that they are of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose, as described, etc. That "satisfactory quality" bit is probably where you're going to get them. You would not be able to claim that a defect was a reason for returning a product IF it was pointed out to you, or ought to have been obvious when you looked at the goods. In that sense, "sold as seen" does have some effect on your rights, but it'll only apply to what are effectively cosmetic details (such as a scuff or two on a display model).

Moreover, "satisfactory quality" does relate to price paid. If you had been sold a sub-standard model at a substantial discount because of some known defect, and knew of the defect, then you'd have little grounds for argument. However, given that you didn't get a discount, then they'll find it hard to argue that you got a discount because of defects. In effect, you bought a display model because it was the only one they had, and looked fine.

Now here's the killer bit.

Goods must be of satisfactory quality. After you've lost that initial right to reject goods, the seller is still in breach of duty is goods don't meet that "satisfactory quality" standard. Defining what it means, though, is a bit trickier. One aspect of it is that if a product fails some time after purchase, then if the reason for the failure is something that was inherent at the time of sale, then it won't meet that "satisfactory quality" standard if that failure occurs earlier than would be reasonably expected. If your laptop had started displaying screen problems after 5 years, you'd have a job claiming it as defective. If it was a cheap model and it lasted 18 months, you might have a bit of an issue. But if it's a couple of months old, then no way can it be claimed to have lasted a reasonable time.

So, if it's failed, the only way you aren't covered by statutory rights is if the reason it failed is not to do with a fault inherent at time of manufacture. So, if you're physically damaged it, if you've connected it to the wrong power supply, if something YOU did caused the fault, then you're scuppered.

But here's the good bit I mentioned. The law says that for the first 6 months after sale, there is a PRESUMPTION that the fault was inherent, unless the seller can PROVE otherwise. If the can't prove it wasn't an inherent fault (i.e. prove it's something you did), they're liable. After 6 months have elapsed, that burden of proof reverses and then, it's down to the buyer to prove the fault was inherent.

However, can you get Currys to pay for you having got it fixed? Hmmm. Gotta say, it's dubious.

Theoretically, maybe. It's certainly their liability, based on what you've said. But from a pragmatic point of view, what will happen if you ask them to? They'll probably decline. You can try making a nuisance of yourself, writing to Head Office, etc, and you might get lucky.

But your problem will be that if they refuse, you only recourse, ultimately, will be to go to the Small Claims Court. If you did that with a defective 2-month old laptop, I have no doubt you'd win unless they could prove you'd damaged it. But while getting it fixed and sending them the bill is likely to be your ultimate recourse, and if necessary, getting to court to get them to reimburse you, it's unlikely the court is going to see you having got it fixed as reasonable, unless you'd given the seller every reasonable opportunity to deal with the problem first. And part of your problem will be .... how much of what you've relayed in your post can you prove? Can you prove the visits you've made? Can you prove TechGuys looked at it and said what they said, or that they wouldn't change it in-store because you might have damaged the palm rest and they need proof?

If you'd gone through a formal complaint procedure, written a complaint, etc. and they still refused to fix it, then yes, you'd have grounds for getting it fixed, sending them the bill and suing if they didn't pay it. But the court is likely to expect you to demonstrate that you've done everything you reasonably can, and while I don't doubt you did it, can you prove you did?


At this point, you can certainly write to them. If you can get a report from the engineer that fixed it detailing the problem(s) it'll perhaps help. But to be honest, I wouldn't hold too much hope of either them paying for it or of a court case being too successful.

But then, I'm not a lawyer, so you might want to ask someone that is.

[BlackDwarf]

Thanks muchly Saracen!

The manager of my local branch took a photocopy of my reciept and took details of all we talked about for his records, so yes, I could get a copy to prove that myself and the manager spoke and I gave him details of the faults. I can't prove I traveled all the way to PC world and spoke with the Tech Guys, but in-store, they can't deal with laptops due to it not being an anti-static environment or some such load of crap.

'Reasonable time' is always an awkward one, and, between me using the laptop and noticing the faults (25/12) and going into Currys to try dealing with it (02/01), I believe that to be a short enough period to do a simple in-store exchange. I think I'll make a call to their head office, write a letter with included bills, and threaten small claims court. Its just £110 on top of an £850 laptop I shouldn't have to pay. You don't expect something to be like that.

Thanks for all your advice

[Saracen]

That "reasonable period", though, doesn't refer to the gap between you noticing the problem and telling them. It's the period between you buying it and telling them. There is no defined period as it depends on the product and, to some extent, circumstances, but as a guideline, it's generally regarded as being maybe a few days, and probably a month at most, except in unusual circumstances.

[Zak33]

Well, in my opinion (and it is just an opinion) it sounds like Curry's are talking from that well-known place where the sun don't shine.

Firstly, "sold as seen" is effectively meaningless (or close to it) when a business sells to a consumer. It does NOT void your statutory rights. If they wereto suggest it does, talk to Trading Standards.

totally on the money... retail punters cant buy Sold as Seen... not from professional retailers.

[Saracen]

totally on the money... retail punters cant buy Sold as Seen... not from professional retailers.

It's a very dodgy thing for a retailer to try, though in fairness, it sounds like that's BlackDwarf's assessment, not what Curry's had to say.

But if a retailer did try to claim that, well, firstly, they can't remove rights given to a consumer by legislation, so it'd have little or no legal effect. Secondly, under the Consumer Transactions (Restrictions on Statements) Order, it may well be a criminal offence if they try.

[shadowmaster]

This maybe a bit pointless to you now, but could you have fixed the laptop through warranty? I've bought a few 'display/sold as seen items' from pc world in the past, but they've always carried a manufacturers warranty (normally 1 year).

[BlackDwarf]

It's a very dodgy thing for a retailer to try, though in fairness, it sounds like that's BlackDwarf's assessment, not what Curry's had to say.

When I spoke to the manager of Brighton store, he did in fact say that it was sold as seen, and I should have noted it/refused it at purchase, so, in a way, he did.

This maybe a bit pointless to you now, but could you have fixed the laptop through warranty? I've bought a few 'display/sold as seen items' from pc world in the past, but they've always carried a manufacturers warranty (normally 1 year).

Indeed, I tried to get it repaired under warranty with the Tech Guys (and, its still being repaired under warranty, its an admin charge I've had to pay), except it should have been fixed in store, rather than the prospect of me losing the thing for two weeks while the Tech Guys 'fix' it, and they wouldn't have done anything with the manufactured damage.

[finlay666]

From working at Comet you HAD to be given a damage report if there were any faults and that you agreed to it in that condition, otherwise you could return it stating that fault, go in and ask for it for your sale, if they can't give you one chances are they messed up or it has become faulty after. And kick off about how you SHOULD have been given one so did not know there was anything wrong, it's against the law to sell something knowingly faulty as otherwise

Given the effort a lot of the staff put in I wouldn't be suprised if there isn't one