Sympathy for Israel

[360bhp]

I find it ridiculous people can actually try and defend the actions of Israel, or even come up with excuses.

Go do your research. Don't believe eveything that is shown to you about this "war" in the media.

Palestinians have been pushed out from thier land, and put in an open air prison. They have had thier brothers, sisters, fathers, sons etc murdered. Would you like them to throw flowers at the people who did it?

[Brucelles]

Shooting rockets into Haifa is not resisting an occupying army, it's attempting to (and occasionally succeeding in) murdering civilians. If they were shooting them into the settlements I'd have more sympathy.

Your suggestion that the Israeli army has a stated intent to commit genocide is a) demonstrably untrue and b) a dangerously inflamatory thing to say. Yes, those T-Shirts are disgusting, and IMO the soldiers who wore them should be chucked in the brig forthwith, but to extrapolate that out to mean that the entire Israeli army exists to slaughter Arabs is quite astonishingly ludicrous.

There are Arabs in the IDF, FFS. Israeli Arabs are not obliged to do national service but some do.

I agree with your first point. Firing rockets into Israel is as bad a suicide bombing civilians. It's illegal and unacceptable.

However, you misquoted me. I never said that the Israeli army (IDF) has a stated intent to commit genocide, only that government ministers, prime ministers and ordinary MP's have all stated an intent to remove the Palestinians by force, if they don't go voluntarily. Since they won't (they can't actually get out easily as they are a few isolated bantustans within Israeli occupied territory) leave their homes, farms and businesses the IDF kills them. This will get worse now that Lieberman and Netanyahu are buddies. Lieberman has previously requested the Knesset to use nukes on Palestinian towns, comparing the situation to America's bombing of Japan, and justifying it since America then didn't need to occupy Japan.

Leiberman also said "It would be better to drown these (Palestinian) prisoners in the Dead Sea if possible, since that's the lowest point in the world,". He even offered, as Transport Minister, to supply buses to take the prisoners there.

Even if you don't consider an actual official request to nuke your prisoners as genocidal intent, you should look up the Geneva Conventions on the subject, and the UN's definition. Of all of the acts that are used to formulate the definition only two options aren't ticked by Israel. Those are, forcible removal of children from one group to the other. Israeli Jews don't want Arab babies, generally, so they don't do that. The other one is the authorised rape of the victims in order to force them to produce "half-breed" babies. Although Israeli soldiers do rape Arab women, it is occasional and not policy.

Netanyahu is another hard-liner. He is in favour of 'Compelling peace'. He wants to force Palestinians out of the West Bank by force, and has previously stated that killing Palestinian children is a good thing "Because they will grow up to breed like vermin". He has also stated that he will not rest until "Eretz ysrael" (greater Issrael) is Arab-free. Eretz Ysrael is a term used by Israeli right wing Jewish loonies who want all of "historical Israel" free of all non-Jews. Most of them advocate mass murder as a mechanism for the achievement of this end. Their definition of Eretz Ysrael usually includes the Occupied Territories, Southern Lebanon and Jordan.

By the way, the Arabs in the IDF usually join because the right to vote and many other rights are dependent upon military service, except for strictly religious Jews, who are excused. Arab Israelis are extremely discriminated against, so joining the IDF for a few years is a way out of the poverty trap.

[format]

Anyone see the Guardian report today on the Israeli forces firing WP rounds in to schools in Gaza?

[360bhp]

Anyone see the Guardian report today on the Israeli forces firing WP rounds in to schools in Gaza?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...hosphorus-gaza

Pictures pretty much speak for themselves:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...hepalestinians


Some of the images I have seen of the actual burns cause by white phosphorous are horrific. Don't think I could post any links to them here.

[lego batman]

OK, this is one for those of you with more robust constitutions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ayman2.jpg
Effects of WP just to give you a warning, and please please please don't view before a meaty lunch.

[icanhazburger]

The tshirts are in poor taste, but hardly harmful, most soliders or ex soldiers I've seen comment on it have been fairly disapproving though, it was new recruits that had these tshirts and not IDF personnel who have served any time yet. Also lets not forget the Palestinians dancing in the street while the twin towers were still shrouded in dust, not saying that makes it right to have these tshirts, but the Palestinians don't exactly mourn Israeli deaths either.

I also disagree that these tshirts imply some sort of higher authority saying they are allowed to shoot anyone, they were made by soldiers, young stupid ones at that.

The worst thing about T-shirts isn't that they are hideously offensive, it is that they reflect a popular feeling within the ranks of the IDF.

Speak to many IDF soldiers then do we?

[360bhp]

Also lets not forget the Palestinians dancing in the street while the twin towers were still shrouded in dust though

Speak to many Palestinians then do we?

[Brucelles]

Speak to many IDF soldiers then do we?

I work with one.

[icanhazburger]

Speak to many Palestinians then do we?

I watch the news which reported and showed them doing it.

Nice attempt though, 8/10

[icanhazburger]

I work with one.

He would probably tell you that pretty much every unit makes tshirts, especially after courses and they usually contain black humour, I've seen some even mocking the holocaust. Also these tshirts would never have been worn off base.

I still agree there in poor taste, but lets face it, most squaddies humour is.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Unfortunately for peace to happen in most of these conflicts there has to be sacrifices on both sides. Look at how peace came to Ireland and South Africa for instance and the sacrifices people had to make as a result.

However both sides have such hate and vitriol for each other I cannot see any peace happening for a while!! I really feel sorry for the populace of both sides who are the real victims of all this fighting. TBH if the political leaders on both sides wanted peace it would happen. I just see that a lot of the peace moves on both sides were just seen as saving face under pressure from the outside world and with no real motive for peace.

[icanhazburger]

Unfortunately for peace to happen in most of these conflicts there has to be sacrifices on both sides. Look at how peace came to Ireland and South Africa for instance and the sacrifices people had to make as a result.

However both sides have such hate and vitriol for each other I cannot see any peace happening for a while!! I really feel sorry for the populace of both sides who are the real victims of all this fighting. TBH if the political leaders on both sides wanted peace it would happen. I just see that a lot of the peace moves on both sides were just seen as saving face under pressure from the outside world and with no real motive for peace.

These kind of conflicts never get settled militarily, at least not in modern times anyway. If 2 decades ago someone had said to me that one day a IRA attack on British soldiers would be met with disgust by both community's I'd have said there barking. It shows it can be done though, but I think it would take along time before Israel and the Palestinians can get back to proper talks.

I don't think the Palestinians helped themselves by electing Hamas either, not saying anything condones having tank rounds fired in built up areas or bombing where there is no way to know how many civilians are in the firing line, just pointing out that its not totally black and white.

[Brucelles]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...hosphorus-gaza

Pictures pretty much speak for themselves:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/inte...hepalestinians


Some of the images I have seen of the actual burns cause by white phosphorous are horrific. Don't think I could post any links to them here.

This is why I used the word 'massacre', as in indiscriminate killing of masses of people. Shelling schools is not excusable, even if you say afterward that you thought there might have been a militant there.

I have heard some stories from the IDF themselves that say that they were told to treat every living person as a terrorist; effectively given carte blanche to murder civilians. The fact that so many of them took advantage of the offer is sickening. However some decent soldiers came forward to complain. Guardian story

An investigation by a group of former Israeli soldiers has uncovered new evidence of the military's conduct during the assault on Gaza two months ago. According to the group Breaking the Silence, the witness statements of the 15 soldiers who have come forward to describe their concerns over Operation Cast Lead appear to corroborate claims of random killings and vandalism carried out during the operation made by a separate group of anonymous servicemen during a seminar at a military college.

Although Breaking the Silence's report is not due to be published for several months, the testimony it has received already suggests widespread abuses stemming from orders originating with the Israeli military chain of command.

So, does anyone still disagree that the behaviour of the IDF was nothing to do with the chain of command? To be honest, it's pretty hard to imagine when they are using white phosphorus anyway, it's not like the odd bad apple keeps a few white phosphorus shells in the hope that he might get to fire one.

[Brucelles]

With Israeli newspapers threatening new disclosures, the New York Times has weighed in with an interview with a reservist describing the rules of engagement for the Gaza operation. Amir Marmor, a 33-year-old military reservist, told the newspaper that he was stunned to discover the way civilian casualties were discussed in training talks before his tank unit entered Gaza in January.

"Shoot and don't worry about the consequences" was the message from commanders, said Marmor. Describing the behaviour of a lieutenant-colonel who briefed the troops, Marmor added: "His whole demeanour was extremely gung-ho. This is very, very different from my usual experience. I have been doing reserve duty for 12 years, and it was always an issue how to avoid causing civilian injuries. He said that in this operation, we are not taking any chances. Morality aside, we have to do our job. We will cry about it later."

These are not the first allegations of war crimes levelled at the Israeli military. Last Thursday, the special rapporteur to the UN Human Rights Council, Richard Falk, said that the assault on Gaza appeared to be a "war crime of the greatest magnitude" and called on the UN to establish an experts' group to investigate potential violations.

Attempts by the Israeli media to publish the rules of engagement for the Gaza campaign have been blocked by the military censor, but in the past couple of weeks the contents of those rules have begun to to emerge in anecdotal evidence - suggesting strongly that soldiers were told to avoid Israeli casualties at all costs by means of the massive use of firepower in a densely populated urban environment.

This is all in addition to those horrific witness accounts supplied by soldiers involved in the fighting, including the "unjustified" shooting of civilians. The story of the sniper shooting a little old lady carrying her shopping over 200 metres away, the shooting of a whole family because the IDF wanted to look out of the windows of their house, etc.

You can believe the numbers, the photographs and the eye witnesses or you can believe the famously untruthful Israeli government. One way may help to stir you into action, the other makes you a fool.

[aidanjt]

*yawn*

How about we rattle off the list of Hamas war crimes for a change of tune?

[Brucelles]

*yawn*

How about we rattle off the list of Hamas war crimes for a change of tune?

I think we just did. They fired some home-made rockets into Israel and killed 39 people since the year 2000. That's four a year, and four too many.

In the same period the IDF killed 6,000 odd Palestinians, mainly civilians, maintained an economic choke-hold on the Occupied Territories, refused Palestinains access to their own hospitals, letting them die instead, stole land etc.