Sun switches support to Tories

[JPreston]

Ok I am definately going to take issue with that statement...

First off if you were to assess supporters of the main parties aginst those three criteria; Ignorant, Dimwitted & Xenophobic then in descending order of "most like" then it would be,

1. Labour
2. Conservatives
3. Liberal Democrats

I'm surprised you would rank them so. I lumped "ignorant and dimwitted xenophobic bigots" all together - i.e. if you can tick all those boxes then the Tories are definitely for you - but even separating them out I reckon it's:

Ignorant and/or dimwitted:

=1. Conservative
=1. Labour
3. Lib Dem (those goddamned elitists)

Xenophobic and bigoted:

1. Conservative (just read the Daily Mail, or for that matter, The Sun)
(DNF) Labour (the party of political correctness gone maaaaaad after all)
(DNF) Lib Dem (pro-Europe and socially liberal. Fancy that!)

Secondly (taking account that all parties have the above idiots) then the real idealogical difference between the parties is as follows;

1. Labour - Big Government
2. Conservatives - Small Government
3. Lib Dems - Big and Small (small at home yet ruled from afar by big EU government)

Tories aren't going to cut our taxes either. For me, civil liberties are the most important issue in UK politics right now. But in any case, if you can find space to slip a cigarette paper between 'neo-Thatcherite centrist' Labour and 'neo-centrist Thatcherite' Tories on anything other than petty gesture politics (cutting MP's salary and the like), then Cameron and/or Mandelson would love to hear from you.

Finally, and I can be corrected if I'm wrong but haven't the worst perpertrators of xenophobia and genocide been Socialists to start!!

Nah, you're thinking of religion (and in terms of pandering to the religious minority it's again Tory in front by a country mile, followed doggedly by Labour).

The other mistake is confusing Labour with Socialists, and presumably Nazis specifically. If you want to match Labour to a system of German government, the GDR (complete with Stasi) is a much better fit. The Tories get to be the Nazis, or more accurately the Waffen SS, because their EU coalition buddies spend their weekends commemorating those glory days.


I'm voting for Kodos

[pp05]

The Labour party is behind the Lib Dems in polls and The Sun is just being a glory hunter. Most people I know don't read newspapers as much these days. Do it on-line.

Newspaper circulation is on the way down. Their influence is diminishing. Might actually be good for Brown if his team can spin it right.

[Kata]

Labour is just the party of those who want handouts in return for nothing Have you *seen* how much we spend on benefits these days - about double what we spend on Health Care, the next largest item in the budget.

The problem is that we're reaching the point of half the voters working for, or getting handouts from, the government, and once we get there its impossible for anyone to get in who says they'll cut this gravy train. Basically, half the UK population are paying for the running of the enitre country, AND the wages of the other half. That's pretty sick.

We need a REAL conservative party who will ruthlessly cut the waste and padding from the public services and get the budget back in check. And some harsh policies for the work-dodgers. But we're too far gone I fear...

[dangel]

Problem for any government now is the mess the current lot have made - tax cuts simply aren't possibly given how labour have spent so much money we didn't have in the first place.

[Revilgo]

I hope this won't mean Dave Cam and the boys will be on Page 3.

Ewwww! Bad Image! Bad Image! I can't finish my lunch now. Curse you, I say, curse you!

Labour is just the party of those who want handouts in return for nothing Have you *seen* how much we spend on benefits these days - about double what we spend on Health Care, the next largest item in the budget.

We need a REAL conservative party who will ruthlessly cut the waste and padding from the public services and get the budget back in check. And some harsh policies for the work-dodgers. But we're too far gone I fear...

I don't think even the Conservatives, REAL or not, or any other party for that matter will have the guts to trim benefits. It'll be electoral suicide. Not to sound elitist, but unfortunately we live under a tyranny of the mediocre as things stand now.

[santa claus]

Ewwww! Bad Image! Bad Image! I can't finish my lunch now. Curse you, I say, curse you!

Sorry 'bout that. I kinda made myself ill with the thought too

Anywayz, this is how it will pan out: between now and Christmas The Sun will rubbish Labour and build up The Cons. Then in a dramatic change of heart nearer election time, it will switch its allegiance back to Lab and both will sweep to victory on the crest of a wave. The Sun doesn't have to answer to anyone for its duplicity, it just has to sell papers and hard times require hard sell.

Surely, you can all see this is what is happening?

[SeriousSam]

Ok let’s start with the ranking and splitting it out I see it as follows;

Dim-witted
All are pretty even on this one, depending on how you look at it as stupidity is a general trait across the political population (well across the whole population in reality). Admittedly with my political outlook then I would be biased to say that Conservatives are the least stupid, but I know I’m not a typical Conservative so on balance leaving it even is the fairest result.

Ignorant
Ok this one is a bit easier 1. Labour 2. Conservative 3. Lib Dems (though while they may know more I doubt much of it is useful). Most obvious argument to support this is if you overlay “education standards” onto political demographics then labour will be in the areas of low standards. This is of course using the definition of “lacking knowledge” for ignorant. Taking it as being more of a “narrow minded” and unwilling to expand their minds then I just have to point at the Unions to give a cracking example of Atavistic, Ignorant Luddites… and last time I checked they supported Labour.

Xenophobic
Now this is where the fun starts as I agree Lib Dems don’t really score at all on this one, but if you think that Labour doesn’t either then I’m not sure what planet you are living on. You can shout Political correctness as much as you like but that doesn’t mean they aren’t xenophobic, just that they don’t want “them” to get upset. You could go into virtually any working men’s club up north (a Labour heartland) and find plenty of xenophobes. In fact going further North you’ve got virtually a whole country of them, admittedly its one particular type of foreigner (the English) but it still counts. Yes Conservatives are more anti-EU, but that’s a political aversion not a people one. Finally there is of course the “not over here taking my job” mentality and that is shared equally between Labour and Conservatives with the Lib Dems probably being happy for someone else to work for them and in fact govern them with their attitude towards the EU.

Anyway I’m not sure where tax cuts came into my post as I was talking about small and big government which is down to the level of “interference” in our daily lives. Labour are big government, hence the increasing legislation that harms our civil liberties. Conservatism is about giving people freedom but at the same time reinforcing the message that if you abuse that trust you will face the consequences. Now to what extent they will reverse the machinations of Labour remains to be seen, but I know Labour will continue to try and “control” us. So in this respect it’s definitely time to see if we can effect some change.

Now religion may have been responsible, due to its abuse by men, for some nasty periods in human history. However, not to the same extent this past century when we had the means to create wide scale slaughter, under the guise of political ideology particularly socialism. Now Labour may pretend to be otherwise, to remain electable, but recent events have shown Brown to be the control freak he is. The state buy-in on banks and so forth is classic socialist “we know best for you” behaviour.

[emzallan]

There is absolutely no point in ranking parties like this, it is stereotypical and based on minimal "facts". Every party has extreme members, different views, levels of intelligence etc. Just because you don't agree with a certain view does not mean that the person holding the view is ignorant. All the major parties have made policy mistakes over the years, and indeed have changed views on issues, so when analysing these "ranks" are you considering each party in terms of the absolute present? The last 10 years? 20? 50? The cabinet members? the backbenchers? The vocal extreme members? The grassroots members? The affiliated organisations?

It makes sense to discuss policies and the general views of the parties on issues such as welfare, Europe, education, the armed forces, the environment, immigration etc etc (although even that can be difficult sometimes)

But IMO saying one party is ignorant or rascist is just pointless. How can you generalise the 500,000 people who are members of these parties, nevermind the other millions that vote for whatever party?

[SeriousSam]

Strictly speaking, taking into account the vastness of time and space, there isn't a point to anything But thats a different discussion entirely...

So what is the point of ranking discussions like this? well ironically it shows more about the perception state of "Britain and it's politics" of the poster than anything else. Plus there is a degree of fun to be had, as long as people keep it friendly, which isn't a bad thing in itself. People aren't going to agree on politics as everyone has their owns views on how things should be run. Therefore finding interesting ways to explore the dynamics of political views is a way to discuss them without getting weighed down with "heavy" arguments that often get a bit heated.

Yes discussing "real" policies is important but as an example the chances of anyone changing my mind on the benefits system is decidedly slim. Of course I accept that may be wrong on finer points of detail, but in the end my belief of "help a man in need, but don't spoil him till he's needy" is part of who I am. So put me in a discussion with someone who thinks the current system is wonderfull then we will go nowhere fast.

[badass]

The problem is that we need 4 mainstream parties when we have 2 1/2
We have Labour - theoretically socialist big governemnt types small individual freedom types.
We have conservatives theoretically more free market sod the poor mentality with more individual freedom.
Then we have the lib dems. They are happy for someone else other than them to do it.

I would like to vote for a small government with a social conscience. look after the deserving poor but leave most of the running of the country to those that can i.e. not politicians nor civil servants.
This is possible though it may seem counter intuitive - the gov't believes in free education and healthcare for all - they are not involved in the running but they do control the subsidy.
Look at the french system. Their health system is mostly private. A poor person needs treatment, the doctor provides treatment and bills the government. A middle income person comes in, they get treated and the gov't pays for part and the individual pays for part (presumably through medical insurance)
Someone loaded comes in and they pay for the lot, whether through insurance or not.

[emzallan]

I'm not saying that light hearted political discussion doesn't have a place, but I think that anyone that holds opinions should be able to defend these and put their points across. Of course many people have firm views that are unlikely to change, but that doesnt mean the debate is worthless, it informs others, and tests the arguments, and just sometimes it can make people think again about their views. I agree that heavy heated discussions can be boring, and this forum isn't really the place to have detailed discussions about political ideology, policies etc, however, I also don't think it is the place to simply list/ rank parties in a stereotypical way, even if it is essentially friendly banter... but that is just my view!