Far Eastern People...

[TooNice]

Well, the 'r' is very different in French and Spanish (I can't roll my 'r' at all).

As others have mentioned, there is no 'L' in Japanese and they use 'R' as substitute. This can lead to some some awkward situations, for instance, when trying to pronounce 'election'.

Once you are past a certain age (the first few), it also become harder to distinguish sounds. I suspect that most English speakers (not of Chinese descent/did not grow up in the relevant countries) would struggle differentiating the various tones in Cantonese (or even Mandarin for that matter).

[Bugbait]

I can speak French at an A* GCSE level though if that counts .
(Well I could, it was 2 years ago since I did that)

What the others have said is basically correct in terms of pronunciation. There's a big difference between communicating in a language well enough for native speakers to understand and sounding or even pronouncing it like a local. On a similar note, there's many local English people I work with who can't pronounce all 26 letters of the English alphabet!

[scaryjim]

How many Chinese/Japanese characters can you pronounce correctly?

In which language?

Don't forget that proper characters are not phonetic: they express concepts. AFAIK at least 3 different languages use the same set of characters, and they all "sound" completely different...

[Zak33]

I've always wondered, and I know this is a really weird thing to ask, but why is it that Chinese/Japanese and sometimes even India/Pakistani people really really struggle to pronounce certain letters in our alphabet?

Especially worlds that contain an L which often sounds like an R.

Is there a really obvious reason for this or is it just a stupid question?

go to wales and try that

[TooNice]

AFAIK at least 3 different languages use the same set of characters, and they all "sound" completely different...

Yeah, that's the case with the various Chinese dialects (e.g. Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien, and I suspect many others). Mind you, I'd say that Japanese is relatively simpler in terms of 'sound' used. There aren't that many, and though you still need to watch out the 'tone' ([i]hashi[i] can mean bridge or chopsticks depending on go 'high-low' or 'low-high') it's not quite as difficult as Mandarin/Cantonese.

[fuddam]

I speak mandarin. I come from seth afrika, so I speaks the taal (Afrikaans) and some clicky bits of Zulu etc. I used to teach English in Taiwan & HK.

Kinda interesting to see that (esp in South Korea) some mothers have the 'skin' under the tongue cut for their children, in order to aid pronunciation of English. A very physical thing.

Also, FWIW, Mandarin (and a lot of other Asia languages) have a strong emphasis on tonal variation effecting meaning, while I've been led to understand that Japanese does not. The difficulty in learning Japanese is about etiquette - which words to use with a particular person. As we know, Japanese is prob more structured a society than anywhere in the world, which is why the first thing a Japanese business person wants is your business card - that way they can see where you sit in the social structure, and then use the appropriate vocabulary. Get the card even before speaking, if possible.

It's not a hard language to learn, compared to Mandarin, in terms of sounds (which is also kinda strange since so much Japanese originates from Mandarin).

my 2c

[Terbinator]

So while slightly off topic this post maybe of some interest to you.

My nana's a christian and suggested herself, that 'Chinese' people have slanted (?) eyes to keep the sun out - fair point maybe, I mean, don't eskimos have faces shaped best to deal with blizzards etc?

Anyway, the key point here is that she believes in god made the Earth in 6/7 days etc etc so i find it strange and slightly amusing she psuedo accepts some form of evolution.

Thoughts ?

[SammEl]

People who speak Arabic use their throat a lot more to pronounce a lot of their words i.e. repeat K very quickly with your throat, now make that into a word - and in the English language I don't think any words do, so if someone who speaks Arabic starts to learn English they basically have to spot using that part of their speaking system and start to use a more calm way, which from what I can imagine, uses your tongue more and not your throat.

[santa claus]

Especially worlds that contain an L which often sounds like an R.

The difficulty in learning Japanese is about etiquette - which words to use with a particular person. As we know, Japanese is prob more structured a society than anywhere in the world, which is why the first thing a Japanese business person wants is your business card - that way they can see where you sit in the social structure, and then use the appropriate vocabulary. Get the card even before speaking, if possible.

That's interesting. Do you know of a good source for a simpleton like me to learn and further understand Japanese please? Ta

[TooNice]

Also, FWIW, Mandarin (and a lot of other Asia languages) have a strong emphasis on tonal variation effecting meaning, while I've been led to understand that Japanese does not. The difficulty in learning Japanese is about etiquette - which words to use with a particular person. As we know, Japanese is prob more structured a society than anywhere in the world, which is why the first thing a Japanese business person wants is your business card - that way they can see where you sit in the social structure, and then use the appropriate vocabulary. Get the card even before speaking, if possible.

It's not a hard language to learn, compared to Mandarin, in terms of sounds (which is also kinda strange since so much Japanese originates from Mandarin).

It is fair to say that Japanese is nowhere as 'tonal' as Chinese, though my prior example is not unique. 'Kami' can mean God, paper or hair, depending on whether you start high or low. But that's the extent of tones in Japanese (high/low), as opposed the 4 in Mandarin and 7 (?) in Cantonese.

You are right about the complexity in their etiquette. I am not sure if that's really the reason they exchange business card though, when speaking to someone in the 'outgroup' (especially in a business context), it is good manner to 'raise' their position while 'humbling' oneself. Even if you are a CEO.

I do question how much Japanese derive from Mandarin though (as a spoken language). I am inclined to say not that much. Some words are almost identical (on top of my head number '3', tea), but I'd say that most do not sound alike (even when the same characters are used).

That's interesting. Do you know of a good source for a simpleton like me to learn and further understand Japanese please? Ta

Wikipedia does a fairly good job explaining the differences: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keigo

The table list 'polite form' last, but by hierarchy is really plain -> polite -> humble/respectful.

Notice that the more polite the language, the longer the words get

[jim]

This guy: http://www.ciao.co.uk/Member__Mitsudan_6454218

Has written some really interesting stuff on Japan - a little bit about the language, and quite a lot about the culture as well. Well worth a read in my opinion, I really enjoyed reading them. They're all on the link up there, just scroll down the page a bit.

[fuddam]

That's interesting. Do you know of a good source for a simpleton like me to learn and further understand Japanese please? Ta

not many offhand, sorry. http://www.rosettastone.co.uk/ ?

For anyone wanting to learn Mandarin, tho, you can't go far wrong with www.Chinesepod.com

their podcasts are excellent

[Kumagoro]

Chinese and Japanese are different on a grammatical level but they do share similar sounds for
some words.

What is really difficult about Japanese is reading, as kanji have more than one sound.
You have on readings and kun readings, on being chinese sounds and kun being japanese sounds.

So for say mountain 山 the on yomi is san and the kun yomi is yama. Learning to write kanji is
pretty easy, remembering multiple on and kun readings for just one kanji is what is difficult.

[TooNice]

Yeah, I agree, I've resorted to memorising compounds as a whole. It doesn't help much knowing both kun/on reading if you are not familiar with the word. While I wouldn't say learning Kanji is pretty easy especially if you are jumping right into it from scratch, it seems to me that learning to read Japanese is by no mean any easier than learning to read Chinese (I naively thought it might be given that need far less unique characters to be 'literate' in Japanese). Grammar wise too, I'd say that Japanese is far more complicated.

[Kumagoro]

Personally I think learning to write kanji seems a lot harder than it really is. I found it easiest to learn new ones from writing them again and again in stroke order, compared to say a flash
card technique. The hardest thing I find is making the effort hahaha.

[zoomee]

English being my mother tongue twas hard learning the likes of urdu and arabic (which my mother and father speak natively). The same can be said about english born people being unable to speak arabic or urdu properly to be honest mate (trust me even I struggle!!!)- for example try pronouncing my name - Umar. - I guarantee you won't get it right

So - Far western people - why do you struggle pronouncing far eastern languages? lol