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Thread: Just because you have a 4WD

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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    badass, you are right traction isn't grip, after all having more traction won't necessarily make you go round a corner faster, or be able to stop quicker.

    Though I don't agree that a 4wd system won't help you come to a stop in a much more controlled way on loose or ice surfaces, if you are just using the brakes then you are right there is effectively no difference, however I was always taught to shift down a gear or two, and allow the engine braking through all 4 wheels do most of the braking whilst applying only a little pressure to the brakes, and I know from experience that on ice doing that stops me in half the distance compared to brakes alone, and more crucially you don't loose grip and start to spin.

    I should point out, that it is also useful advice for 2wd cars, as well as 4wd, though is of no use to automatics
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by badass View Post
    You are talking about something clearly ourside your areas of expertise.
    In an automotive terminology, traction and grip are two related but different things.
    Traction is purely about putting the power down. It is related to grip but certainly not the same thing. Grip is purely about how the car sticks to the road under acceleration, braking and cornering.
    4WD, ESP, various differential technologies etc will improve traction but certianly not grip. Slam on the anchors and it doesn't matter how many driven wheels there are, you're taking just as long to stop. ESP will of course help you stop in the circumstances it is designed to work in but it's mainly about keeping the car stable when you're driving in a way that would make it unstable.
    Uh, no, they're not just related, they're synonymous.
    Quote Originally Posted by [url=http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=chrome&client=ubuntu&channel=cs&ie=UTF-8&q=define:traction]Traction[/url]
    grip: the friction between a body and the surface on which it moves (as between an automobile tire and the road)
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

    Traction is another name for the adhesive friction between two surfaces.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traction_(engineering)
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    Uh, no, they're not just related, they're synonymous.
    Incorrect in context.

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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by abaxas View Post
    Incorrect in context.
    Utter nonsense, I left out no other pertinent definitions, define grip and it'll give you the exact same meaning as traction. Traction and grip are the same thing. You need 'both' in order to accelerate, steer, or deaccelerate, without it you lose control.
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Dragoon View Post
    badass, you are right traction isn't grip, after all having more traction won't necessarily make you go round a corner faster, or be able to stop quicker.

    Though I don't agree that a 4wd system won't help you come to a stop in a much more controlled way on loose or ice surfaces, if you are just using the brakes then you are right there is effectively no difference, however I was always taught to shift down a gear or two, and allow the engine braking through all 4 wheels do most of the braking whilst applying only a little pressure to the brakes, and I know from experience that on ice doing that stops me in half the distance compared to brakes alone, and more crucially you don't loose grip and start to spin.

    I should point out, that it is also useful advice for 2wd cars, as well as 4wd, though is of no use to automatics
    Normally good, but a long time ago, I changed down too far, too fast while driving down to give way on ice. Made the front wheels spin. (slower than the car, was very odd) I didn't have far to the giveway so I dipped the clutch and used the brakes to stop the car.

    brakes - all four wheels (well, kind of) - good
    engine - only the wheels I need to steer. - bad

    It is perfectly valid for the driver of an automatic to use engine braking to slow down. As I mentioned in a previous thread about driving on snow, anyone driving an auto should falimiarise themselves thoughly with the options the gearbox gives them. My mum-in-laws auto is more complicated than a manual. It has auto, plus 3 "low" gears, plus snow mode plus sports mode, plus kickdown. My manual just has a knob that I move about.

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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by Funkstar View Post
    A friend was telling me about an old guy near where he lives that spent a whole day towing cars, vans and even lorries up a hill in his beat up old Defender recently. When used right, these things are virtually unstoppable
    I think that's gotta be quote of the season

    Virtually Unstoppable.... they accelerate better, but they are.. virtually unstoppable.

    (teasing.... Landrovers stop well in snow... good tyres, the right brake balance and plenty engine braking if needed)

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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by pipTheGeek View Post
    Normally good, but a long time ago, I changed down too far, too fast while driving down to give way on ice. Made the front wheels spin. (slower than the car, was very odd) I didn't have far to the giveway so I dipped the clutch and used the brakes to stop the car.

    brakes - all four wheels (well, kind of) - good
    engine - only the wheels I need to steer. - bad

    It is perfectly valid for the driver of an automatic to use engine braking to slow down. As I mentioned in a previous thread about driving on snow, anyone driving an auto should falimiarise themselves thoughly with the options the gearbox gives them. My mum-in-laws auto is more complicated than a manual. It has auto, plus 3 "low" gears, plus snow mode plus sports mode, plus kickdown. My manual just has a knob that I move about.
    Been a long time since I have driven an auto and didn't realize they had come along in that way, used to be auto's didn't really have any engine braking as such because the wheels were not connected to the engine and torque converters are fluid couplings and couldn't pass the motion back to the engine.

    And in 2wd cars you are only getting the engine braking on the driven wheels so you can use it, but have to be very careful, but my comments are mainly on 4wd cars, where then engine braking is far superior in icy conditions than locking up your wheels with braking too hard (the defender I like to drive has nothing to help, no abs, esp, traction control and barely even has a radio lol).
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by Zak33 View Post
    I think that's gotta be quote of the season

    Virtually Unstoppable.... they accelerate better, but they are.. virtually unstoppable.

    (teasing.... Landrovers stop well in snow... good tyres, the right brake balance and plenty engine braking if needed)
    New ones do, old Series Land Rovers still have a stopping distance an oil tanker captain would be used to

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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by Stringent View Post
    When it snowed really badly the other week, while my BMW was struggling, I had so many idiots drive like this past me with not a care in the world. 4WD doesn't stop if its icy. Plus also those with 4WD probably haven't got it in the right gear either ...
    Sounds like my dad and my cousin (X5 and Evo X respectively) a few weeks ago when snow started. Admittedly when you are the one driving past everyone on the icy lane on the motorway it is actually pretty fun.

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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    Utter nonsense, I left out no other pertinent definitions, define grip and it'll give you the exact same meaning as traction. Traction and grip are the same thing. You need 'both' in order to accelerate, steer, or deaccelerate, without it you lose control.
    I think I made it clear that in automotive terminology the meanings are different.
    You are posting about something you clearly lack more than an outseider knowledge in, stop making yourself look silly.

    In fact, using your own flawed arguments, what you are saying is completely wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    You've got a point about the ice, otherwise, AWDs have at least twice the traction you do, and it's especially evident in icy/snowy/wet conditions.
    How the hell does driving more wheels make a car magically have twice as much GRIP
    Since you say grip and traction are identical, and that Grip is simply the friction between two surfaces. Driving wheels has no effect on friction between the surfaces - only the forces applied to the tyres and the road*


    *I am aware this isn't completely true and that the coefficient of friction changes when surfaces start sliding and Mu changes depending on the forces the tyre is subjected to.
    Last edited by badass; 03-01-2011 at 03:20 PM.
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by badass View Post
    I think I made it clear that in automotive terminology the meanings are different.
    You are posting about something you clearly lack more than an outseider knowledge in, stop making yourself look silly.

    In fact, using your own flawed arguments, what you are saying is completely wrong.



    How the hell does driving more wheels make a car magically have twice as much GRIP
    Since you say grip and traction are identical.
    Exactly.

    In the context of cars. Traction means under power, grip means without power.

    Hence the terms 'mechanical grip' and 'traction control'.

    Maybe in engineering terms they are the same, but in the vocabulary of cars, there is a subtle but different meaning.

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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    So in engineering they mean the exact same thing but in engineering they mean something different? Stop being ridiculous. Just admit when you're wrong.
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by badass View Post
    I think I made it clear that in automotive terminology the meanings are different.
    You are posting about something you clearly lack more than an outseider knowledge in, stop making yourself look silly.

    In fact, using your own flawed arguments, what you are saying is completely wrong.



    How the hell does driving more wheels make a car magically have twice as much GRIP
    Since you say grip and traction are identical, and that Grip is simply the friction between two surfaces. Driving wheels has no effect on friction between the surfaces - only the forces applied to the tyres and the road*


    *I am aware this isn't completely true and that the coefficient of friction changes when surfaces start sliding and Mu changes depending on the forces the tyre is subjected to.
    So you don't know that grip and traction are the same thing, and you don't know what differential gearing is, yet you feel compelled to correct me, even after I point out the correct definitions?

    It's not magic, it's engineering.
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    I've seen a few automotive websites where they give different definitions of Traction and Grip, but tend to find they give a long wordy description of one, then one sentence about the other - like they can't really say any more without overlapping the descriptions e.g.
    Grip The magic word for racing drivers and engineers. It describes how well the car adheres to the ground and how this affects cornering speeds. High grip means high cornering speeds. Main factors of grip are the aerodynamics, the downforce created by the vehicle and the tyres’ properties. Without grip, a vehicle will begin to slide or skid.

    Traction This term describes the ability of a race car to apply its engine’s power to the track.
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    So in engineering they mean the exact same thing but in engineering they mean something different? Stop being ridiculous. Just admit when you're wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by aidanjt View Post
    So you don't know that grip and traction are the same thing, and you don't know what differential gearing is, yet you feel compelled to correct me, even after I point out the correct definitions?

    It's not magic, it's engineering.
    Nice. Dodge the point completely where you have contradicted yourself, then decide you are right by changing what I have said.
    I think you know you've lost this one but are completely incapable of ever admitting to being wrong or changing your mind about anything. I wonder if you are actually capable of seeing the contradiction or if your mind is incapable of seeing you're just plain wrong. I'm sure may others on this board do as well TBH
    I also wonder what stupid statement you'll come up with next will be to maintain your position will be.
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    Re: Just because you have a 4WD

    Calm down guys this is beginning to verge on personal attacks rather than a debate... grip and traction are buzzwords bandied about by every automotive reviewer and driver on the planet.. they're often used in different contexts depending on the source but they are slightly different things.

    I was always taught that traction is how well whatever vehicle put's it's power down onto the road (to include to metaphor I was given at a young age.. "like a tractor"). Grip, grip is the limit of the friction between tires and road when at speed and is affected by more variables than traction.

    This -



    does traction for a living...

    This -



    does GRIP

    The challenger has the kind of traction that will always get it out the hole and off the line towards the bad guys, but try and take it round a corner at 55mph and you'll discover it has no grip.. see what I mean

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