Decision time - Education and career

[Mattbot2]

Hello,

Really only looking for serious posts in here please

So, I'm just finishing up my first year at sixth form, failing most things, have decided I'm going to go to my local college in September, really hate it at sixth form. The decision now is, what to study? I've narrowed it down to two or three options, in no particular order...

Engineering

The qualification itself is called Engineering - Advanced Diploma and is worth 3.5 A-Levels and can be used to get into university, whilst also giving the pratical skills for employment. I have a half-hearted interest in this. I'm a bit of a techy, as you know, from me being on here. After this I may well do Electronic Engineering at university or find a similar sort of job. I can appreciate mechanical engineering but can't really say it interests me much. This is probably the most sensible option as the industry looks set to expand a lot over the coming years, so would probably be relatively "easy" to get a fairly good paying job in. I'm not saying it's an easy route at all, before anyone says that.

Media

Again, the qualification is called Creative & Media - Advanced Diploma and again is worth 3.5 A-levels, can be used to get into university, whilst also giving the practical skills for employment. I think this is where my heart is. It's a bit techy on the video side which interests me a lot and I am also quite creative too. After this I'd hope to either go to uni or, the dream. Start making short films, with ongoing projects on feature-length films and be an independent film production company. A lot harder to do as the original ideas need to be there, and people need to like it. I think the internet is still an up and coming medium in this. The dream would be to do this for a living, making money from being a YouTube Partner. I think I do have what it takes, and I realise it takes a lot of time and effort but I'm definitely willing to put this in. The College course would give me both the education on it and the facilities. High end cameras and mics can be booked out for personal projects. They also have the Mac's with Final Cut Pro for editing, so the facilities are there. This is definitely the dream, to do this as a career. My parents think this is unrealistic, but I think the fact that I'm also considering Engineering shows that I too realise it is unlikely, but I have hope. I realise a lot of you will probably roll your eyes at this and Media, but I'd appreciate not being abused for it.

Motorsport

The qualification is called BTEC Level 3 Extended Diploma in Motor Vehicle / Motor Sport and can be used to go into the industry or to university. I'm a bit of a petrolhead as it is so this interested me and if I'm really honest, it just looks like a hell of a lot of fun, which probably isn't what you should go into a course thinking, but who knows.


That's really all I have to say. Any advice / thoughts appreciated. Can take constructive criticisim, just not abuse. The deadline for application is getting really really close and I really need to decide, but can't! I realise you can't make the decision for me, but I'd like some feedback please!

Thanks,

Matt

[Behemoth]

It all depends on the job market and whats out there. Again I don't know much about the area you live in (or if you intend to move from your area at a later date)

The only advice I can offer other than the above choose a course you know you'll enjoy. Study carefully the ins and outs of each course and make sure that your interested in all of it, not some of it especially if the part your not so keen on make up the bulk of the marks to pass the course.

I took a Btec national Diploma course in Computer Studies after I left sixth form thinking I'd be mucking about with PC's and stuff and getting a more hands on course. What I actually got was a 2 year intensive course in programming, with a small element of the above. It really was like pulling teeth doing that course, I'm stunned to this day how I managed to stick it through to the bitter end.

[finlay666]

I would not suggest media, personally I think it's a bit of a waste of a degree, however on a less opiniotated basis I only know of 2 people that have done it that actually have related jobs now, the others are doing work unrelated to their degree.

Any numerate degree (engineering included) usually opens up a lot of opportunities for careers, even into things such as motorsport, they are quite keen on the academics though.

I would suggest looking at what work is involved, and if you can honestly see yourself coming to the end of the course and still having the drive to finish it even though you are stressed, have no social life and just want to pack it all in.

The actual work involved on the course will also count a lot for what your opportunities would be, the university I went to offered 3D multimedia as an option on my course as a module in final year, we used tools that are not used in the industry which means any skills I had were not directly transferrable to the workplace. If I had wanted to go into the area it could have been a waste of time (that said someone I work with someone who dropped out of that course and work with a company whose owner did the course and has done projects for the likes of ITV)

It really is a lot of ifs and questions, asking what you should do isn't really a question anyone can answer definitively without knowing the ins and outs of the course, the career progression you want or even what your strengths and interests are. You might be strong at a subject but if it doesn't interest you you propbably won't enjoy your career.

[Mattbot2]

I would suggest looking at what work is involved, and if you can honestly see yourself coming to the end of the course and still having the drive to finish it even though you are stressed, have no social life and just want to pack it all in.

My main concern for Engineering. It's all well and good if it is worth more, but if I don't pass it, then it's worth nothing!

It's such a hard decision to make, and I understand your concern toward Media as many many people take it and then become a shelf stacker at their local supermarket. I like to think I have a bit more going for me than them in sheer determination and that I'm not just taking this because it's a comparitively easy course. But who know's?

Ugh...

[Domestic_Ginger]

Can you get any work experience before deciding?

[Mattbot2]

Can you get any work experience before deciding?

I'm afraid not

[Domestic_Ginger]

Media and motorsport sound a bit meh. tbh they don't sound like proper qualifications.

[finlay666]

My main concern for Engineering. It's all well and good if it is worth more, but if I don't pass it, then it's worth nothing!

That was why I suggested you look at the learning offered and the style. Different people learn/perform in different ways, I prefer physical examples for learning and dont particularly like written exams but some do

I like to think I have a bit more going for me than them in sheer determination and that I'm not just taking this because it's a comparitively easy course. But who know's?

Sheer determination doesn't mean much if you don't have anything that sets you off on paper as better than everyone else when it comes to choosing who to interview unfortunately.

Do you have any hobbies outside of IT as it's not something really related to any of the paths you seem to want to take. I'd imagine something like photography/amateur film would be beneficial for a media course in terms of understanding composition, set up and execution of shots.

[peterb]

Are you looking for an academic qualification or a vocational one? An engineering degree will contain a lot of mathematical theory, and while there will be practical/experimental aspects to the course, they may not translate into practical engineering skills. On the other hand you could an engineering apprenticeship (or similar) which would give you lots of hands on real world engineering problems, but may not have the academic content of a degree.

I used to have reservations about the value of (say) media or other degrees that are considered 'soft'. Again it comes down to the academic content. You may find that those courses have modules with high academic content (Economics, English, Critical Analysis for example) as well as teaching other academic skills such as research methods (essential for a journalist for example).

You need to research some of the course content and options and perhaps discuss with a careers advisor.

[Saracen]

Hello,
...

Motorsport

The qualification is called BTEC Level 3 Extended Diploma in Motor Vehicle / Motor Sport and can be used to go into the industry or to university. I'm a bit of a petrolhead as it is so this interested me and if I'm really honest, it just looks like a hell of a lot of fun, which probably isn't what you should go into a course thinking, but who knows.

I think you can look at that in two ways .... and unfortunately, they're rather opposite. First, I'd second Behemoth's remarks, at least up to a point, about doing a course you enjoy. The same applies to picking a career. It helps a LOT if you enjoy the subject, but you really must understand, and I mean really understand, that just because you enjoy something as a hobby or pastime doesn't mean that you'll enjoy it as a career, or that you'll find a career in it turns out to be as much fun as it is as a hobby.

That could probably bear some explaining.

You're a petrolhead, you say. You like cars, you probably like mucking about with them and it's enjoyable. Great, so far, so good. But .... at your age, you'll probably not have been mucking about with them for all that long. Do you want to still be mucking about with them in 30 years time? And I'd suggest before answering that you sit back and really think about it.

Oh, and by "answering that", I don't mean posting an answer here. I mean deciding in your own head. Is that really what you want to do for most of the rest of your life. If it is, really really is, then fine, there's nothing wrong with that. Just be careful to be honest with yourself as to whether it is or not. Because you are the only one that will suffer if you get that answer wrong.

Also, it's worth thinking about whether, by going for Motorsport as a career, whether you'll end up merely wrecking it as an enjoyable pastime? It's not uncommon for people to pick something as a job because they like it only to find that :-

a) doing it as a job is nowhere near as much fun as doing it as a hobby
b) having been doing it all day at work, the last thing you want is to go home and do it at weekends.

Be aware of what is often the practical realities of working life. If you enjoy car tinkering as a hobby, fine, But as a job, you're going to end up working at the crappy end of it for several years, because you won't have the experience to be doing anything else, initially. And you'll be working for someone that'll be telling you what to do, when to do it, and probably be pressuring you to get it done faster because someone is paying the bill for your time to do it, and 'mucking about' with cars, which may seem like of a "hell of a lot of fun" at the moment, may be anything but fun if doing it in the harsh realities of the commercial world.

I'm saying all this at the risk of coming across as a boring old fart talking down to the "kid" in a patronising way. And one of the first lessons I learned as an adult is that giving advice to "youngsters" is often a thankless task, largely because they won't listen. I know I sure as hell didn't, because I knew better, I was more in touch than the old man (Dad) because he was past it and didn't understand me, or my world. It was years before I really understood just how much better he understood the world than I did.

So please, understand that I'm not trying to be patronising, but to try to get you to see that the world of work, whatever you do, is going to run on rather different principles than you're used to so far, and it's very difficult to really understand what that life will be like until you've lived it for a while.



Okay, that said, here's the next bit. You say

So, I'm just finishing up my first year at sixth form, failing most things, have decided I'm going to go to my local college in September, really hate it at sixth form. The decision now is, what to study? I've narrowed it down to two or three options, in no particular order...

Another question for you (to answer in your own head) .... if you're "failing most things" in the sixth form, is it really going to change either at college, or should you decide after that to spend another 3 years (or more) going for a degree? I mean, if your mindset right now is that focussing on study and exams is not doing it for you, do you really want to set the next four of five years aside to do more of it?

That question is genuine. It's not loaded in any way, and as before, it only matters that you are as honest with yourself as you can be. And I don't prejudge the answer. It may be that the answer is yes, that you do have the mindset for college and uni, and that there are reasons or circumstances relating to current home life, circumstances or school why your head isn't in it, and why you're currently failing at most things. It happens. And you may quite genuinely be determined to get a degree.

Just be sure before committing several years to it. Because right now, it looks like it's going to put you in debt to the tune of some tens of thousands of pounds to do it, and on top of that, you're giving up several years of what you might earn if you were working rather than studying. Even if the next four of five years were only paying £15k/year, you could be looking at £60-70k in lost earnings, and another £30k+ in fees, let alone living expenses.

So I really suggest you're honest with yourself about whether it's for you or not, because while uni is one very good way, usually, of getting on in life, it is not the only way, and not the be-all-and-end all.



Next point .....

A degree is also not necessarily the best way into various careers.

You mentioned the media.

Again, the qualification is called Creative & Media - Advanced Diploma and again is worth 3.5 A-levels, can be used to get into university, whilst also giving the practical skills for employment.

I'd suggest checking out very carefully quite what that course entails, and thinking quite carefully about precisely what aspect of the media you want into, and then getting all the feedback you can on what that aspect of the media prefers as entry qualifications. For instance, by "media", do you want to be a journalist, do you want to be production crew in TV or film, or a "creative"? I'd suggest, that for those three broad options, the optimal entry routes could and very likely would be totally different. Would, perhaps, you be better advised to spend a few months working for free for a local paper, if journalism is your aim, than college? Or, can you find a way to impress a local paper enough to be prepared to offer you some publication opportunities while working another job as a ... whatever, to pay your way in life? Or, is a degree in journalism actually the best route.

Similar questions apply to TV production, film production, and the "creative" aspects of media. is a formal education the best way, or are you better served with practical experience?

And please note, I'm NOT suggesting or implying the answers to those questions. I'm trying to point you in the direction of the questions to be asking yourself.

Let me give you an example. A young lad I knew (a friend's daughter's boyfriend, to be exact) was working in a gent's clothes shop, but really wanted to be a journalist. Now, I could have got him some writing work, handed to him on a platter. Instead, I asked him what interested him, and pointed him in the right direction and gave him a kick in the backside. I told him to pick a subject he thought he could write about, and then get on the damn phone and call some editors. I told him to be polite and courteous, AND to be aware that some times editors will be willing to talk, and sometimes they're up against deadlines and will say "I'll ring you back", and may even mean it but it may not happen. So I told him to offer to do an article or two and offer them free of charge, to be paid for only if used. And to expect to have to work at it to get the first "oh all right then, send me something".

I also suggested an editor or two to try, and didn't tell him I'd primed them to expect the call.

Well, he did ring, he did get the chance, he did make a good job of the articles, he did get freelance work, then got offered a post on a mag's staff, make a lot of contacts and ended up, somewhat to his surprise I suspect, moving out of journalism onto the other side of the fence, PR. Shop assistant to PR exec in one "easy" career change.

So I say it again, speaking as someone that has one, a degree is not the only route (to most careers), and nor necessarily is it even the best route into some careers. Others (law, medicine, many forms of engineering, chemistry, physicist, etc) it may well be the only way, but it is certainly not always the only way into many careers.

So ..... if you have some specific ideas of career routes, be it some aspect of media or be it some aspect of motorsport, I could seriously recommend investing some time into research. And by "research", I don't mean a quick Google (though you may start out that way), I mean working at it to find out what's actually involved.

Find some motorsport companies, do some initial research and, like my PR-exec friend, see what happens if you get on the phone. But don't just Google for a phone number and ask the receptionist/operator who to talk to. Really do some research into the company, try to work out who the best person to talk to is and then ring and ask for that person. When you get them (if you do, which with a bit of luck and perhaps a bit of perseverance, you will do if you approach it in the right way), explain to them what you're after (a bit of advice about their area of expertise as a career option), be aware that making them feel like you've put some effort into selecting them (i.e. subtle flattery) can work wonders, and be aware you'll have limited time before they run out of time or patience, and you never know what might result.

Also, be aware this certainly won't always work. Also be aware busy people often have firewalls between them and the outside world. If you ring a major publication and ask for "the editor", you'll h9t a firewall, who wants to know what it's about. If you ring and ask, in perhaps a slightly bored or harried tone, "can I have a word with Tony Smith <him being the editor, or whatever> please", and do it as if you expect to get put through, the odds are reasonable decent that you will be put through. If you are, you then address him as Mr Smith, and tell him quickly and concisely that you know he's a busy man, but you're really very determined to get a career in <whatever it is>, and you're hoping he could spare you a couple of minutes to answer a few questions.

You never know, but if you hit the right person at the right time and with the right approach, they just may decide that someone with the drive to get that far might be worth inviting in for a guided tour of the editorial office, or factory, or motorsport garage, or whatever. And that is why I said research the company as much as you can.

The worst that can happen is you get a rude brush-off. More likely, a polite brush-off. Be prepared to get either, or both. But if you do, what've you lost?

But if you're lucky, or persist a bit, you might well get some very useful advice from exactly the kind of person you're going to be trying to convince to give you a job at some point. And they can tell you whether, in their field, they look for a degree in whatever or would rather have you several years younger and that uni is perhaps not the best course. And if you're REALLY lucky, you may get an offer something like the above scenario. It's not easy, but it DOES happen.

Anyway, I guess what I'm really saying is that I'd suggest trying to think through what you really feel you want to do, and to try to do it through the eyes of what a working life in that field will actually be like, which is going to be extremely hard to do when you've no real experience of what it is like in a job.

So .... back full circle to point 1). Yes, both for doing a degree and for getting a job, it really helps if you have a passion for whatever it is you end up doing, even if it's for law, or accountancy, or whatever. It makes getting the degree far easier, and it's sure a hell of a lot more pleasant spending 40 or 50 years working at something you love doing than just working because it's a job or career and pays the bills. But also be aware that those of us that love what we do (which, by the way, includes me) are lucky as hell, and most people are lucky if they do better than tolerating it.

You have an incredibly hard decision ahead of you, in trying to decide, with naff-all real data to go on, what you want to do for the rest of your life. It's certainly possible to change career directions after a few years, but again, as someone that did that, it's better to get it right first time.

So if it takes some time and money to do that research, and if you can get anywhere with people on the phone, it may well prove a valuable investment, even if it does nothing beyond help you eliminate a given direction.

For instance, "Start making short films, with ongoing projects on feature-length films and be an independent film production company."

First question on that .... where's the money coming from? Even very small low-budget films can be quite expensive, and a MAJOR part of that is going to be the admin, funding and marketing. It's not all about creative time behind the camera. If you can get to talk to people in the business, it may help you focus on whether a career in that will actually be what you want, or even if it will be what you imagine it will be.

But right now, mattbot, you sound a bit like I felt at your age, and I had ideas of what I thought a certain career was going to be like, before I spent three years getting a relevant degree and several more for professional qualifications before I discovered I hated it enough to not be able to stomach the rest of my working life doing it. Well, I lucked out by managing a complete career change, into something that actually didn't require the degree much less the professional qualifications. And I did it by getting on the phone, talking to people and getting lucky.

[ik9000]

Matt,

The main thing is doing something that interests you. Study is hard if your heart's not in it. However, some things will open far more doors than others. Engineering is a mare of a degree but boy does it open up many career paths.

The academic route is heavily mathematical - heaps of theory and typically pressured timetables with labs, supervisions, coursework on top of the lectures. A lot of courses, even courses aimed at just one discipline eg electronics, will teach all the engineering disciplines together for the first two years since the maths + basic principles overlap so heavily. Plus it's good to know something about how an engine works even if you are only being asked to design the circuit board for the fuel injection system, etc etc.

The apprenticeship, vocational route is doable, but often leads to more technician level roles than engineer level or management level. (Ie more the draughtsman/workshop level than the designer/manager level). There can be a lot of self-study + assessments required to move up further via this route since engineering chartership usually now requires a masters degree or equivalent. A decent technician is worth their weight in gold though - nothing wrong with going for this if that's your interest.

Work experience is achievable - pick firms you really want to go to, write them each a targeted letter explaining why. Call their HR dept to ask them who the best person to contact is - or even just ask the receptionist. A letter to the right person is more likley to get a positive response than a "Dear Sir" circular. Sometimes a small-medium firm will give you better work experience than a large one, and you'll hopefully be less likely to get lost in the wheels of bureaucracy that large firms sometimes have. edit: And as Saracen says - chatting to them wouldn't hurt either. Keep it short and sweet explain what you're after, offer to send in a CV, and when you do so add a decent covering letter to the mix.

Leaving school for college isn't always the answer, but nor is staying in it always the right thing either. Do take some time to chat it through with your folks, teachers and a career advisor.

[santa claus]

It's always difficult to follow Saracen's excellent posts.

We're prone to perceive that others have made better career choices than our own, when in reality, their decisions might be entirely wrong for you and the things you want from life.

No matter how much you anguish over getting it right now (and I know you have to commit to a career path), a whole load of external influences will diminish the seeming finality of your choice.

Go for the career choice that enthuses you. If your sensible head talks you out of your dream, you will regret it. If the dream fails to deliver, there will be other options because you will make them.

[Lucio]

All I can add here is some personal reflection, when I went to uni for the first time, I studied Computer Science and Statistics, and based on early assessments, would have gotten a first or a 2.1. Didn't finish because of money

It's taken me 10 years to get a job that's actually IT related, and it's only now that I am learning what the job is actually about, more importantly I'm using far more of the skills and experience that I have gained in my previous jobs than I would have gained at university.

So anyhow, my point is this, education is all well and good, but what it really takes to succeed at many careers is practical experience and the right mindset for the job.

[Mattbot2]

Am on my mobile at work at the moment. Have read all the posts and will do a proper reply later. Really appreciate it guys.

[Mattbot2]

The main reason that I’ve chosen not to go for a career in computers is that I love tinkering with them and using them as a hobby but if I’m sitting at a desk all day using them, I doubt I’d want to use them when I get home, I don’t want to ruin what, at the moment, makes up the bulk of my spare time.

I think with my current A-Levels it’s more of a motivational issue because of there being no light at the end of the tunnel. I’d also put it down to the fact that the sixth form I’m at is the same place as I went to Secondary School so I think it’s old ways in an old place. I could definitely do them if I applied myself. I hate saying that as it makes me look like I’m just a lazy teenager. I really can relentlessly work at mind-numbing crap if there’s a light to aim for. My heart just isn’t here.

I think the main thing is that, if I go for media, I start shooting right away. Making short 5 minute super-cheap films. I have a part time job that I can keep with college that will provide more than enough for initial ideas. If I can start making money from it from YouTube or other means of advertising then hopefully things will start to expand. I have a few initial scripts in the making and am really going just keep churning out digital shorts. I’m ridiculously tired and really wish I could expand more but my brain isn’t working so well being so tired and all.

The main thing that has rubbed off on me from this thread is one massive Make sure you're making the right choice from Saracen, which in itself is quite intimidating as I'm very afraid of making the wrong decision, but I do recognise it's importance and really appreciate the amount of time you obviously spent writing that gargantuan post. Most others seem to suggest choosing something you enjoy. If I'm honest with myself, Media is where my heart is. I can see myself taking Engineering and wishing I'd taken Media. I can't see myself taking Media and wishing I'd taken Engineering, at least not within the length of the course, but I guess afterwards is where it matters.

I have this week off of Sixth Form so it gives me some time to think about this and look for people to contact.

Many thanks,

[Butcher]

I think with my current A-Levels it’s more of a motivational issue because of there being no light at the end of the tunnel. I’d also put it down to the fact that the sixth form I’m at is the same place as I went to Secondary School so I think it’s old ways in an old place. I could definitely do them if I applied myself. I hate saying that as it makes me look like I’m just a lazy teenager. I really can relentlessly work at mind-numbing crap if there’s a light to aim for. My heart just isn’t here.

I switched schools for sixth form, I think it helped a lot. You get a new perspective on things, and a different environment. If where you are now isn't doing it for you then there's not much point staying around really.