Public Sector Strikes

[santa claus]

Yeah your right except the problem i have is its not the upper crusts or the teachers that lost a days pay (and we're a low income house) The goverment says that the current pension scheme is unsustainable so surely something has to be done before we step into a deeper hole.

This seems to be the thing that people Forget WE are in a Huge Recession years of overspending and wasting money Things have to change Surely and if pension cuts are one of those things then so be it.

Public Sector workers also lost a days pay danroyle. Many of them are in low income households too.

Don't believe everything the Government says and if you belly up to them, you'll be the next target. Want to lose your tax credits or income support or child benefit for example? They're after you and me not their City buddies.

[TheAnimus]

You won't get flamed by me because you're entitled to your opinion.

The public sector took ONE day off to express an opinion.

May I ask:

Was Ethan delivered into this World under the watchful eye of brilliant NHS public servants?
Was Ethan tended during his childhood illnesses with vaccines delivered by skilled NHS doctors?
Is Ethan being educated by hard-working public sector teachers?
Is his security, along with that provided by you, cared for by Police Officers and Firemen?
Etc.

The public sector took a day off. In the 6 years of your son's life, they have otherwise nurtured him, cared for him and you and not once did they moan.

But of course, forget the bin men, the hospital cleaning staff, because no one likes them, and they are private contractors too, so obviously they don't contribute anything of any value to society, ever.

Also their roles aren't emotive!

But please, think about what they provide, and how best to screw them over, so a bunch of people who live in a socalist bubble which the rest of us pay for, can not have to wake up and face reality that their pensions are unsustanable gaint ponzi schemes.

Because why wait until after negociations to strike? You won't inconvience half as many people as you otherwise would.

Did they get us into this mess? No.

Ah citaion needed?

We're in this mess right now because the government spent far more than it earn't via taxation. What did they spend that money on? Because I really didn't get a proportional benefit for the taxation!

But a set of public workers did, and a set of private too, things like the millenium dome for instance......

[santa claus]

But of course, forget the bin men, the hospital cleaning staff, because no one likes them, and they are private contractors too, so obviously they don't contribute anything of any value to society, ever.

I am certainly not forgetting them but the examples cited in my post adequately make the point in the context of my exchange with danroyle. Would you have me list every public sector worker so that you can attempt to belittle their roles too? Oh yes, we know where you're coming from TA; you started the thread with a poll that tells us all we need to know about who does and doesn't care about the public sector.

And you are public sector enemy no.3, after Foghorn Clegghorn and Dodgy Dave

[badass]

Was Ethan delivered into this World under the watchful eye of brilliant NHS public servants?Did not go on strike
Was Ethan tended during his childhood illnesses with vaccines delivered by skilled NHS doctors? Did not go on strike
Is Ethan being educated by hard-working public sector teachers?
Is his security, along with that provided by you, cared for by Police Officers and Firemen? Did not go on strike
Etc.

Pointing out that the vast majority of the people you mention didn't actually go on strike kind of takes the strength out of your argument, doesn't it?
The only actual "doers" that went on strike it seems were the teachers they are always striking about something or other as they are over represented by the lefties who love nothing more than not doing work for a day. The rest of the people that actually provide useful services didn't.
As far as I can tell, it's just the waste of space and money paper pushers that went on strike with the teachers during these strikes.

[santa claus]

Please don't edit my posts; write your own.

Please use facts in your posts, "as far as you can tell" that is. Geez

[badass]

Please don't edit my posts; write your own.

Please use facts in your posts, "as far as you can tell" that is. Geez

I did use facts. I how about the fact that various groups did not go on strike. Facts you have chosen to ignore. Is that how you debate? Just ignore the vaild points someone makes that aren't helping your argument?
P.S. I was a civil servant once. I've seen how unbelievebly full of the terminally workshy and incompetent the civil service is.
I'll also point out that my mother, 2 of my brothers, one brothers fiancee and another brothers girlfriend are all public servants at various levels and all see daily how unbelievable ineffieient all areas of public service are and just how rife incompetence and laziness is in public services.
Lets see if you can resist an opportunity for a cheap shot now

[santa claus]

I was a civil servant once. I've seen how unbelievebly full of the terminally workshy and incompetent the civil service is......drivel removed....
Lets see if you can resist an opportunity for a cheap shot now

Then let me oblige you. The civil service is immeasurably more efficient now you've left. Fact.

Incidentally, you don't really want me to explain for you how a huge Union operates do you? Good grief.

[TheAnimus]

I am certainly not forgetting them but the examples cited in my post adequately make the point in the context of my exchange with danroyle. Would you have me list every public sector worker so that you can attempt to belittle their roles too? Oh yes, we know where you're coming from TA; you started the thread with a poll that tells us all we need to know about who does and doesn't care about the public sector.

YES.

Because ultimately these pensions are coming out of taxation, the general tax population!

So ultimately that means that some poor workers, such as those I listed, will be paying for a pension for someone else, who earns more, and best of all that poor worker will never be able to obtain.

But hey, thats fair right?

Or are we going to go off on a "its simple, tax anyone I dislike" style campaign?

[Barrichello]

May I ask:

Was Ethan delivered into this World under the watchful eye of brilliant NHS public servants?
Was Ethan tended during his childhood illnesses with vaccines delivered by skilled NHS doctors?
Is Ethan being educated by hard-working public sector teachers?
Is his security, along with that provided by you, cared for by Police Officers and Firemen?
Etc.

Nice selective roles in the public sector you have highlighted there, im sure people are more than happy with the service they provide to the community, but what about....

-Bouncy castle attendants?
-Cheerleading development officers?
-Empowerment partnership co-ordinators?
-Totem pole artists?
-Media communications managers?
-Deputy Regeneration officers?
-Diversity and inclusion managers?
-and all the general middle management paper shufflers?


The unfortunate truth (this is from a friend in the public sector by the way) is that for all those you mention, we still have to many people in the public sector in "middle management" and to many job titles that include the term "diversity" "equalities" "inclusion" "cultural" "liaison" "outreach"

Im not saying that there is no waste and needless middle management in the private sector -as i know and have worked with some but the major difference is that their wages/pensions do not come out of taxpayers money!

[badass]

Then let me oblige you. The civil service is immeasurably more efficient now you've left. Fact.

Incidentally, you don't really want me to explain for you how a huge Union operates do you? Good grief.

Judging by the tone of your response, I must have hit a nerve. You have still conveniently ignored all of the perfectly valid points I've made. I guess you just don't have a response that supports your argument.
One question I must ask is how could the civil service be more efficient since I have left when I was doing 3 peoples jobs at once - and they had to recruit 3 people (internally) to replace me?
To avoid sounding like I'm blowing my own trumpet, none of the three jobs would have taken the average person any longer than me. It is because the vast majority of people working there were taking the mick out of the taxpayer, leaving a small percentage to work their arses off to take up what slack they could.
Most of us have to go and find another job if we're not satisfied with pay and conditions in our current position, however these strikers seem to think they are somehow different and have a right to a job on their terms, on pay they decide with perks they choose.

[tiggerai]

Remember boys, everyone is entitled to their own opinion here. Make sure you keep it above the line please.

[santa claus]

YES.

Because ultimately these pensions are coming out of taxation, the general tax population!

So ultimately that means that some poor workers, such as those I listed, will be paying for a pension for someone else, who earns more, and best of all that poor worker will never be able to obtain.

But hey, thats fair right?

Or are we going to go off on a "its simple, tax anyone I dislike" style campaign?

Sorry, don't understand the point you are making? All public services are funded from, erm, public funds. No secrets there. It's always been that way and it will always be that way. Do you not want public services such as doctors, nurses, teachers, police, firemen and government? You know, people in important jobs.

Nice selective roles in the public sector you have highlighted there......

The unfortunate truth (this is from a friend in the public sector by the way) is.....

Im not saying that there is no waste and needless middle management in the private sector -as i know and have worked with some but the major difference is that their wages/pensions do not come out of taxpayers money!

Are you saying that the roles I selected are not legitimate? You know they are, you just wish it could be less crucially necessary people don't you?

I think also that your friend in the public sector cannot be regarded as the definitive source of "the unfortunate truth" whatever he claims it to be, although he's entitled to his opinion and whatever influences it (although he's no doubt happy with the employment a public sector job provides).

Judging by the tone of your response, I must have hit a nerve.....

One question I must ask is how could the civil service be more efficient since I have left when I was doing 3 peoples jobs at once - and they had to recruit 3 people (internally) to replace me?

Most of us have to go and find another job if we're not satisfied with pay and conditions in our current position, however these strikers seem to think they are somehow different and have a right to a job on their terms, on pay they decide with perks they choose.

Not at all (and nowhere near!) . I wrote 2 sentences; one providing a view and the other asking a question which I note you have conveniently ignored.

I'd be impressed that you were doing the jobs of 3 people but if you were able to manage that you were evidently doing the job of just one person with an inherent reluctance to take on more? I appreciate that hacking it in those circumstances would be difficult for you and when you left a subsequent restructuring followed. That's what any responsible manager would need to do to sustain services to the public. Services that are dependent on everyone pulling their weight.

I hope you made pension provision when you left.

The public sector has a right to the terms of their employment contract. Morally and legally.

[SeriousSam]

One day our descendants will look back and say, "what a bunch of selfish, spoilt ingrates our anscestors were"... assuming that they actually survive the crap that we're pilling up for them to deal with.

[opel80uk]

Another race to the bottom thread regarding public sector pensions. Aside from the insidious wording of the poll, what comes across pretty clear is the 'well I'm up sh*t creek without a paddle, let me drag you down there too' tone from those that are bitter that they don't have as generous pension schemes as those perceived in the public sector.

The facts (See the IDS Pay report 1075) are, the public sector, using individuals of comparable standards of education & experience, and in comparable roles, earn less than those in the private sector. If you want a decent standard of public sector worker, you have to be able to attract them somehow, and a decent pension is one way to do that, especially if you are not going to pay them the going rate for their skill set. Is the argument that the public sector pensions are unaffordable, or that a public sector is unaffordable?

Someone earlier asked where were public sector marches when the private sector pensions all went belly up. I'd answer that by saying we were at home with our feet up, because you never organised anything and instead just rolled over while you were shafted by the fat cats at the top. On the other hand, had there been a collective resistance against what was happening, organised first and foremost by those who were losing their pensions, you may have found public sector workers, and even perhaps, dare I say it, Trade Unions, supporting and helping.
With regards to the current strikes and as a union man myself, I think they were called a bit prematurely, albeit by just 2 unions. But the issue isn’t necessarily what Hutton is suggesting now, as by and large I think that what he suggests is, whilst not ideal obviously, fairly measured and reasonable. The issue is where will this stop? The real fear within the public sector is that this is the first chip away at the whole notion of a public sector pension, and I honestly believe that even if that is just how it is perceived, as opposed to an actual reality, it will have consequences for us as a society, as public services across the board will suffer because you won’t have qualified and educated people being enticed to work in the sector. I think Saracen (apologies if it was not) said that he doubted whether people moved into the public sector on the basis of the pensions on offer, but I can honestly say that it is one of the main reasons why I, firstly, joined the NHS and secondly, have stayed in the NHS despite being offered better pay elsewhere, and I know plenty of others like me besides.

I do not support any of these strikes at all. In fact, I hope all of the strikers lose their jobs and are forced to actually work for a living rather than do the public servant version of working.

I believe, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that you are suggesting that Teachers and University Lecturers (and perhaps Doctors or Nurses, seeing as they will almost certainly take part in related strikes in the future), don't actually do what most people would consider work?
It's that kind of antagonistic, ill informed opinion, offering no constructive purpose whatsoever, that just serves to entrench people. Well done.

So ultimately that means that some poor workers, such as those I listed, will be paying for a pension for someone else, who earns more, and best of all that poor worker will never be able to obtain.

But hey, thats fair right?

Or alternatively;

'So ultimately that means that some poor public sector workers, such as those I listed, will be paying for a bankers bonus, out of their pensions for someone else, who earn more, and best of all that poor public sector worker will never be able to obtain.'

Now you come to mention it, no, that’s not fair.

[Agent]

Been watching this one with interest but have refrained from commenting so far. Have to say that I'm glad I did - not only has it given me some points to ponder myself, but Its brought out a few comments from people that have surprised me.

Disclaimer: I am a teacher (University Lecturer), but I have experience at other levels.

I have worked in both the private sector and the public sector. I like to think I'm pretty level headed about the issues raised in the thread, but I don't agree with everything in this thread.

A typical day working for me finishes at about 10pm, if all goes to plan. I rarely get a lunch break and it's generally solid work from 9 till 6ish in the office, home for some food and to see family, and then work again (at home) from about 7:30 till 10/11. At busy times, this will easily go through to early hours in the morning.

A weekend is considered as a couple of days where I can get up 'late' for work, and finish a bit earlier. I cannot think of a single weekend in the last 6 months where I've been able to go out and socialise for any longer than a few hours due to work commitments.

This puts a huge stress on family, friends and relationships in general. I've lost track of how many times I've had to tell friends "I'm working, sorry" when making arrangements. Many of which don't bother asking me anymore because they know the answer or think I'm lying because it's on a weekend. I'll be honest - after a few years it becomes soul destroying and it's easy to see why quite a few people get written off for stress and other related issues.

My position is not uncommon. Some have it worse, some have it easier, but that's the nature of any job.

With that in mind, I can make around 1.5x, maybe more in the private sector and have a bit more free time to boot.
I am not unique in this position. Most of the people I know across various institutes could make more in the private sector. Colleges have such a high staff turnover rate due to this alone, where staff just go and do that.

What most people don't realise is the sheer amount of work that goes into preparing a lesson and the content to take away. Teaching isn't a case of 'reading out of a book' - those days have gone. A set of lessons with proper content can take months to write and prepare, never mind all the tick boxes and red tape that needs to be done along the way.

When you've done that, you have class sizes to contend with. You think the headlines of 30+ students to one teacher is bad? I've seen classes of 50+ in some places, through no fault of the teachers. And a teacher is expected to give every single student, even the disruptive ones, the best education they can and offer support practically all of the time.

There is also no such thing as 'leaving work' when you're a teacher:
Out in the town having a drink? It's considered highly unprofessional to get drink in an area where you could bump into students and see you in anything less than a sober state, even at a University level. Granted, this differs from place to place, but it's still in a lot of contracts under the professionalism heading.

Want to do something a bit risqué , unrelated to your job? If it's found out then your career is gone.

That knock on the door at 11pm? It's one of your students who's ran away from home after her dad has been abusing her.

That 'class clown' who was being disruptive and ruining other peoples education? - An underlying disability which they are now getting help to manage due to the support put in place by teachers and educational institutes.

I know some of you will think I'm rambling now and are asking what the relevance of all this is to pensions, but I'm just trying to highlight a simple point. Teachers are expected to be everything else a child needs, as well as a teacher. Society seems to be offloading more and more onto teachers each year, without any recognition or questioning of this. I've seen parent's go into schools and attempt to beat up a teacher because he dared take a phone off a student who was phoning people in class. The same goes for parents nights - I witnessed one parent ask a teacher "Why the **** aren't you learning him any manners here, he always back answers me"

I've added my disclaimer at the start, so make of this what you will, but teachers are incredibly good value for money for what they do. I'm not going to quote figures, because there are a few different ones about from different sources, but all say the same thing: The overtime that teachers do across the country is in the billions of pounds per year.

Should teachers strike over their pensions if they lose it? On the fence, but I know a lot of good teachers who will promptly bugger off to other jobs if it happens. There is a lot of emphasis on the financial side of things, but most people forget the experience that these people take with them when they leave and the effect it can have on kids. No one likes their favourite teacher leaving, much less if it's one that's helped them through tough times.

Besides, forget striking, if teachers really want to kick off they could do far more damage by only working the hours in their contracts, refusing to do unpaid after school classes and clubs, and all of the other things I listed above and they wouldn't lose a day's pay either.

The pension is certainly one of the reasons people stay in the job, as well as for the love of it.

On the other hand, we get awesome holidays....oh yes, sorry, can't take them, too busy. So when my yearly entitlement resets at the beginning of next month, I think I'll have had about 3 weeks off in total and that includes the Christmas and Easter breaks.
Again, not uncommon and I'm certainly not alone.

I know for a fact that if most of the people I work with were actually paid for the hours they worked and classes had the correct number of staff, this wouldn't be such a huge issue.

In fact, I hope all of the strikers lose their jobs and are forced to actually work for a living rather than do the public servant version of working.

I had a much easier life in the private sector - Fact. The work I do in teaching is several magnitudes harder. I find the accusation that we should "actually work" pretty dam offensive and certainly not the level I expected from you or any other HEXUS member.

edit - every time I see someone compare teaching to something like a lawyer, this video always comes to mind.

[roachcoach]

@Agent.

I know a good few teachers and the problem is the perception that once the kids leave, so do you. Likewise the massive holiday allocation compared to most.

It's only when you speak to them do you realise all the "after hours" stuff that goes on. I reckon at least half your work is "invisible", as it were.

Changing this perception would be key to garnering public support imo. Don't really know how you go about that though.



Edit: Ironically, it is a similar 'perception' issue for bank workers. As soon as you say 'bank' as employer, you're right up there with the mass murderers of the world, even if you're a lowly admin or call centre worker on about 12-14k per annum.

_____________________________________________________________________________


The problem is and remains as I said - The prevailing opinion is that everyone wants someone else to pay for it. It's never anyones fault, always everyone elses. The bank argument is tired, trotted out as a fallback when there's not much else to say. They didn't fail alone, 'people' had a pretty heavy hand in that too, a fact conveniently forgotten by many. No, I do not work in a bank.


My opinion is we need to get on with it, most everyone is suffering but all we are doing right now is extending an already painful process needlessly, dividing society down lines based on where they work. Ridiculous, but perhaps human nature to blame everyone but yourself.