OK HeXus, what are your thoughts on ...

[peterb]

Any excuse for a forum plug PB!
snip--->

Indeed!

[aidanjt]

What I want to know is why there's a toll in the first place. Why pay road tax when roads are being paid for by tolls?

People get so bent out of shape over 'entitlements', that they don't think about the entire proposition and how they are being blatantly ripped off in the first place. The hatred is misdirected.

[kalniel]

What I want to know is why there's a toll in the first place. Why pay road tax when roads are being paid for by tolls?

Presumably to create a two-tier transport system. Those who can afford it get the nice road, those who can't have to travel with the unwashed

[peterb]

What I want to know is why there's a toll in the first place. Why pay road tax when roads are being paid for by tolls?

Because it was built as a private venture, and (understandably) the builder wants to get a return on his investment.

If aidnjt enterprises plc built a tunnel between Galway and mainland Britain, using its own money, it wouldn't be unreasonable for aidnjt enterprises plc to recoup its investment by levying a toll!

There is nowhere in mainland UK where you have to use of a toll road; use of them is optional, although in cases like the River Seven crossing, the cost of the toll is less than the cost of the fuel used to bypass the bridge, and results in a considerable time saving.

[aidanjt]

Because it was built as a private venture, and (understandably) the builder wants to get a return on his investment.

And why was such a venture even permitted in the first place? It's the government's job to maintain the road infrastructure. Drivers don't pay road tax to hand out crony contracts and toll them for their trouble.

[peterb]

And why was such a venture even permitted in the first place? It's the government's job to maintain the road infrastructure. Drivers don't pay road tax to hand out crony contracts and toll them for their trouble.

No, its the Government's job to provide the infrastructure, either by doing it itself from public funds, or allowing a private contractor to do it, at no cost to the public purse. In this case it was deemed more cost effective to allow a private contractor to provide the North Birmingham relief Road. And by providing it, those drivers using it (by paying the toll) relieve the congestion on the M6, which is toll free. Those that do presumably think that the saving in time and fuel is worth the cost.

Whether that is more cost effective is another debate, but toll motorways are common in France and some other European countries.

[aidanjt]

If everyone had free access to it the congestion on the M6 would be even more relieved. You simply don't have the space to waste to be allowing hybrid/competing road ownership and having unused road capacity sitting empty while the other road is bunged up. That's why it's the governments job to do it, not privileged companies who're chummy with whoever is running the road services authority.

[peterb]

<---snip

not privileged companies who're chummy with whoever is running the road services authority.

Citation needed, as that is a fairly serious allegation.

But I fail to see your objection to saving public money by allowing private enterprise to build and run it for a defined period before it becomes publicly owned.

However this is taking the thread off the original topic.

[steve threlfall]

If everyone had free access to it the congestion on the M6 would be even more relieved. You simply don't have the space to waste to be allowing hybrid/competing road ownership and having unused road capacity sitting empty while the other road is bunged up. That's why it's the governments job to do it, not privileged companies who're chummy with whoever is running the road services authority.

The road would not exist without the private funds that were required to build it though

It's great news that the toll is more accessible to the disabled. It's bemusing that anyone should feel bitter about genuine people being more able to access the toll. That's hukd for you

[Saracen]

I see two issues (well, three with Aidan's point, with which I don't agree) but the original post could be about :-

- attitudes on HUKD
- whether disabled drivers should have to pay for access to the toll road.
- both.

There's not much I can say about the attitude of some on HUKD other than that I think it's disgraceful. There aren't many occasions when I am a nasty and vindictive person, but there are times and attitudes sometimes that make me wish serious ill on people, and I stopped reading because I was getting that way. It is not charitable of me, but I rather hope some people get to experience what life can be like for a lot of disabled people. Then they might change their tune.

As for the toll road and the charges, well, access to the Toll road is not a necessity. Or not in my opinion anyway. Nor is it a public service. It's up to the operators what discounts they offer for the disabled, and up to the disabled whether to pay it or go the slower route.

For reference, many times I've been down there on business, and if I'm on the clock and a client is paying for my time, I go the Toll route and charge them the toll. It's cheaper than charging the extra time. If I'm on my own dime, I really have to be in a hurry or I go the free route.

[Hoonigan]

Just out of interest, how much does it actually cost to use this road?

[Saracen]

Just out of interest, how much does it actually cost to use this road?

It varies, according to time of day, which bit you use and category of vehicle.

For a car, between £2.80 and £5.30, for a one-off trip.

See full price guide

[Biscuit]

i live in maidenhead but al my friends live in manchester so i travel up the M40, M42, M6 route quite a lot, i have used the toll once or twice when the sign has said 'congestion' but there are other times i haven't had any change handy and have ignored the traffic notification. To be quite honest, the journey times have rarely been any different. I would say the most difference it has made is about 10 minutes on a ~3:30 hour journey, not really sure if thats worth the ~£5 but given i rarely bother with it anymore i would say naaaaaaa.

[badass]

Citation needed, as that is a fairly serious allegation.

But I fail to see your objection to saving public money by allowing private enterprise to build and run it for a defined period before it becomes publicly owned.

However this is taking the thread off the original topic.

I wouldn't have a problem if that were the case. However we are promised one thing then it gets politically convenient to ignore that.
Dartford tolls, anyone? Supposed to be abolished once paid for. Petition presented to pervious government pointing out that it has been paid for and therefore based on the original promises, toll free (saving many people 1-1.5 hours from their journeys each way at peak times) and the governments response was to increase the tolls