British Troops retire the Browning Pistol and move to using the Glock

[Jake_UK]

I thought the glock safety was proven to be just as, if not more effective than traditional safety mechanisms?

What makes you think that?

[watercooled]

That this is about being Quickdraw McGraw.

You're massively underestimating the difference a few moments can make when under fire then. Again, I've based this on what I've been told by more than a few people who've served, not on idealistic scenarios. There are reasons why more people in the field have been issued with sidearms lately, and why a lot of them have been P226. Green on blue is an interesting example as pointed out by Tumble.

What makes you think that?

Did you read any of the thread? Or if not, the experiences of the vast amount of people using these pistols over the world, notably over half of US civilian police.

[Biscuit]

What makes you think that?

As above, the vast amount of the world that use it as a standard issue firearm and the technology that is contained within the weapons.

Show me the reports that say otherwise?

[Jake_UK]

You're massively underestimating the difference a few moments can make when under fire then. Again, I know more than a few people who've served who'd told me this. Green on blue is an interesting example as pointed out by Tumble.

I can assure you that I'm not. A few moments to think through the realities of such a Green on Blue incident a bit more might help you see why but if you can't I'd say it's beyond the capabilities of a couple of posts on an internet forum to explain.

Did you read any of the thread? Of if not, the experiences of the vast amount of people using these pistols over the world, notably over half of US civilian police.

Yes I read the thread, including the title and I took note that it starts 'British Troops' (if it had said 'British Plod' I would probably have never clicked on it). Civilian vs police vs military operating environments and 'use-cases' are very different. If you need me to tell you that we're not going to get very far here either. You can read back to my original post in the thread for a starter-for-ten.

I'm not sure if you missed that the question wasn't to you - I'm interested in why Biscuit believes that may be as from the basic maths and mechanics I'm more inclined believe that moving from a physically separate safety catch (so safety catch and trigger to fire) to a integrated trigger safety (so just trigger to fire) is more likely to increase pistol ND rates than reduce them.

[Jake_UK]

As above, the vast amount of the world that use it as a standard issue firearm and the technology that is contained within the weapons.

Show me the reports that say otherwise?

So no hard evidence/statistics or personal experience led you to that conclusion. Thanks, was just wondering whether I was missing something.

I have no reports that say otherwise, I'm basing my prediction on my experience.

[Biscuit]

I can assure you that I'm not. A few moments to think through the realities of such a Green on Blue incident a bit more might help you see why but if you can't I'd say it's beyond the capabilities of a couple of posts on an internet forum to explain.

Yes I read the thread, including the title and I took note that it starts 'British Troops' (if it had said 'British Plod' I would probably have never clicked on it). Civilian vs police vs military operating environments and 'use-cases' are very different. If you need me to tell you that we're not going to get very far here either. You can read back to my original post in the thread for a starter-for-ten.

I'm not sure if you missed that the question wasn't to you - I'm interested in why Biscuit believes that may be as from the basic maths and mechanics I'm more inclined believe that moving from a physically separate safety catch (so safety catch and trigger to fire) to a integrated trigger safety (so just trigger to fire) is more likely to increase pistol ND rates than reduce them.

So no hard evidence/statistics or personal experience led you to that conclusion. Thanks, was just wondering whether I was missing something.

I have no reports that say otherwise, I'm basing my prediction on my experience.

Hence why i put 'I thought...' and then a question mark at the end, i was hoping someone could point me int he direction of information i could read to better inform myself, or if first hand experience is the case, explain it to me. Just as DDY and Watercooled have done.

Basically what you are saying is, you're wrong. I know why your wrong... but im not going to tell you.

So not only is your attitude condescending and arrogant, but you are an utter forum troll. If you dont want to actually engage in discussion and debate, dont bother.

[watercooled]

So no hard evidence/statistics or personal experience led you to that conclusion. Thanks, was just wondering whether I was missing something.

I have no reports that say otherwise, I'm basing my prediction on my experience.

So you're being obnoxious yet essentially contradicting yourself in the same post?

[Jake_UK]

Hence why i put 'I thought...'

I know you put 'I thought...' that's why I asked 'What makes you think that'. It was just a simple question.

Basically what you are saying is, you're wrong. I know why your wrong... but im not going to tell you.

No, what I said was: "it's beyond the capabilities of a couple of posts on an internet forum to explain"

So you're being obnoxious yet essentially contradicting yourself in the same post?

Where is the contradiction?

"So no hard evidence/statistics or personal experience led you to that conclusion"
vs
"I'm basing my prediction on my experience"

[watercooled]

You're quick enough to jump on other people's posts and call them wrong, but assume your opinions are correct, and expect others to also assume they're correct despite no backing, is what I mean.

Still, this branch of the thread is becoming somewhat pointless and isn't likely to resolve itself, so I'll refrain from replying further unless the general discussion continues.

[Jake_UK]

You're quick enough to jump on other people's posts and call them wrong

Actually, I did exactly the opposite - I asked why he though that.

[Biscuit]

Actually, I did exactly the opposite - I asked why he though that.

And then immediately discredited the question and opinion without decent explanation.

You're quick enough to jump on other people's posts and call them wrong, but assume your opinions are correct, and expect others to also assume they're correct despite no backing, is what I mean.

Still, this branch of the thread is becoming somewhat pointless and isn't likely to resolve itself, so I'll refrain from replying further unless the general discussion continues.

Indeed, i dont see the point in posting on a forum to tell people they are wrong if they dont have the time or means to explain why.

As i said before, troll.

[Pob255]

Ok lets start with military use.
Army/general armed forces: Austria, Bangladesh, Finland, Israel, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Montenegro, Netherlands, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Sweden, Switzerland, Venezuela and Yemen
Military Special forces: Denmark, Czechoslovakia, France, Georgia, India, Russia and Singapore

So yes the glock does have a proven military track record, it's more well known in police work and more commonly found there than military work.

There are versions with additional external safeties, initially Israel required them, but then dropped the requirement.

[TheAnimus]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAeqVGP-GPM
We can't have people fighting about handguns!

Also I've never carried any handgun on my person, but I've never seen or heard of anyone having any fears about keeping the clock with just trigger safety on. I know an american who drives with his one up, using only that safety.

[HalloweenJack]

Well, the Sig has been issued for some time (under an Urgent Operational Requirement for Afghan) so that was definitely in the trials (which allegedly have been running for two years). MoD bought the 'budget' magazines for those Sigs though and the mag springs were a constant problem.

At the end of the day it will have been the usual result: lowest bidder* wins.

* Whose kit isn't a total failure.

maybe if you stop reading the daily mail you might have a clue why the sig is being replaced - nothing about magazines and more to do with barrel failures in the field - which is why sig had to rush out a new version - the L106A1 with a new barrel for use in Afghanistan.

[Jake_UK]

I've never seen or heard of anyone having any fears about keeping the clock with just trigger safety on. I know an american who drives with his one up, using only that safety.

Was it this fellow? Yes it was a Glock 17.



Maybe he needed better training, like this police officer.

I'm not saying the Glock is a unsafe weapon (looks like Jack's a shareholder so hope that makes you feel better!) just that my prediction is that NDs go up over the HiPower. I don't see why there's a need to call names and, worst of all, suggest that I read the Daily Mail.

[watercooled]

Crap, flimsy/worn holster, as I found by reverse Google image search, then shocking carelessness in the video. Neither of them would have happened if basic weapon safety rules were followed i.e. maintain weapon and accessories properly, then don't put your finger on, and pull the trigger of a hot gun in a classroom full of kids. No amount of manual safety will provide immunity from carelessness.

Google (insert weapon name here) ND, post results to back claim. Same can be done for any weapon, Glock and HP included.

If the MoD considered a manual safety necessary, they could've asked Glock to add one as Israel apparently did (although I didn't know about that until now). As I said earlier, the P226 has no manual safety either.