In the same week as Islamic nutters hacked a soldier to death...

[Rave]

...The UK government has forced the EU's hand on supplying arms to the Syrian Opposition, who are essentially Islamist to their core:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ria-rebel-arms

When will we learn? I know Bashar Al-Assad is a bad man, and I'd shed no tears if he was overthrown. But his opponents are, if anything, worse. I really feel that, if we're not prepared to send peacekeepers in en-masse (which apparently, we are not), our best bet is to stay the hell out of it. Our foreign policy is now so apparently screwed that we're still losing troops fighting Islamist nutters in Afghanistan, while actively trying to channel weapons to Islamist nutters in Syria. How the hell is that a morally consistent policy?!

I just can't get my head around it.

[Saracen]

...The UK government has forced the EU's hand on supplying arms to the Syrian Opposition, who are essentially Islamist to their core:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013...ria-rebel-arms

When will we learn? I know Bashar Al-Assad is a bad man, and I'd shed no tears if he was overthrown. But his opponents are, if anything, worse. I really feel that, if we're not prepared to send peacekeepers in en-masse (which apparently, we are not), our best bet is to stay the hell out of it. Our foreign policy is now so apparently screwed that we're still losing troops fighting Islamist nutters in Afghanistan, while actively trying to channel weapons to Islamist nutters in Syria. How the hell is that a morally consistent policy?!

I just can't get my head around it.

We, by which I mean the West, are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

The Balkans, for instance, saw internecine slaughter, and "we" get moaned at for allowing a slaughter, mainly of Muslims, while we stand by and don't act to prevent it. Iraq, on the other hand, is all about the Imperial anti-Islamic west, and that's wrong, too.

As I see it, if we interfere in Syria, we'll end up with the blame and probably both sides hating us. And if we don't, we'll end up with the blame, and both sides hating us. "We" are expected to intervene, largely on the basis that we're one of the few powers that can, but of course, that doesn't mean we should. And by "we", of course, I mean the US with the rest of us following along behind, while puffing up our chests, because of course, on our own, the UK could do naff-all to sort out Syria, beyond shipping arms and quite possibly making things worse.

[HalloweenJack]

the same opposition who now openly support al-qeada

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22095099

[Phage]

Lunacy. Selling weapons for Peace.

[Saracen]

the same opposition who now openly support al-qeada

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22095099

Part of the problem is that, as I understand it, it's more that there are oppositions, plural, rather than a single unified group, and more problematic still, not with a unified purpose or objectives. One layer is Sunni v Shia. Another is 3rd party groups that, while not being keen on either the Assad regime or the main opposition, prefer one side or the other to the alternative. Then, there's various external interests that figure they've either, to use an old adage, got a dog in the fight, be it Russia, or Iran, or hardliners from Iraq, or jihadists from all over the place, because the conflict, the melee and the lack of a firm grip on things by anyone at all leaves plenty of scope for nutjobs of all flavours to push their agenda, whatever it happens to be. Any power vacuum leaves scope for exploitation.

So yeah, some elements of the opposition are al-queda sympathising jihadists, and some aren't.

But .... given that the concensus seems to be that both Russia and Iran, and for all we know, others, are supplying Assad's regime, is it fair to let a brutal regime continue to oppress and terrify their own people because it gets support from those vested inrerests while not at least trying to even things up a bit.

So, the options seem to be :-

1) Do nothing, and let a vicious thug like Assad continue to brutalise ordinary Syrians, or
2) Act firmly to boot Assad out, then try to make some sense of the post-Assad mess, or
3) Try to balance the sides out a bit.

Trouble is, two evenly balanced sides may well result in a hugely drawn out conflict with far higher overall levels of casualties. But taking option 2) is no easy route either, as per either Irag or Afghanistan, ir even Libya. Yet, if we do nothing, we get the blame for "supporting" Assad, by virtue merely of not having actively opposed him.

There is no good option, and doing nothing us as much a choice as doing something.

There's an old ethical argument in philosophy, usn't there, along the lines of ....

.... you're in control of a switch control on a railway track, and there's an out-of-control train with brake failure hurtling down the track, towards 5 workmen that haven't seen it and will all die if you do nothing. But, you can pull the switch and divert the train onto an unused siding, if you choose to do so. But ..... there's two children playing on that track that will die if you pull the switch.

So, do you "act" and save the lives of 5 workmen, even though two kids that are currently safe will die if you do.

What is the "right" choice?

Because that's analgous, in many ways, to the mess in Syria, and why we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

[wasabi]

I suspect the unofficial strategy is the keep the area unstable. i.e. better them infighting than developing serious weapons capability and kicking off against Israel / the great-satan West.

[mcmiller]

...The UK government has forced the EU's hand on supplying arms to the Syrian Opposition, who are essentially Islamist to their core:

That is such a dreadful thing to say.. what is the problem with being a muslim? Generalising like this is dreadful, do you call all priests peadophiles because of what a small percentage of priests did?

I personally have very close friends who are muslims "to the core" and they are 100% against the dreadful things these fanatics have done and have said that the koran teaches people to respect the laws of the country, not to kill people etc...

[Domestic_Ginger]

I think he meant Islamist as in fundamentalist. As in striving for a fundamentalist government.

Iran is behind Assad. Hezbollah are all for Assad; so much so I think they've leant them some manpower.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

But .... given that the concensus seems to be that both Russia and Iran, and for all we know, others, are supplying Assad's regime, is it fair to let a brutal regime continue to oppress and terrify their own people because it gets support from those vested inrerests while not at least trying to even things up a bit.

Syria signed weapons deals years ago with Russia and the stuff which has been delivered has been mostly the defensive stuff,ie,antiship missiles and SAM systems.

However,the Russians have held back on significant quantities of offensive weapons which were meant to be already delivered including dozens of MIG29M multirole fighters and YAK130 multirole jet trainers and their associated weapons systems,including new generation air to air and precision guided weapons. Those MIG29M fighters are probably close in capability to Block40 F16 fighter bombers in my estimation.

These could have been game changing if Russia had delivered them,as it would enabled the Syrian armed forces to have much improved all weather and night ground attack capability,which they mostly lack ATM and a fresh stock of guided missiles and functional fighters.

There are also other consideration why Russian and China still support the Syrian government:Libya.

Russia and China abstained(and gave their indirect support) to the creation of the no fly zone,probably with the assumption it would force Gaddafi to negotiation table.

Instead it lead to a NATO lead operation into Africa,which ended up costing the Russians and Chinese billions in civilian and military contracts. After,that pie in th face,they made sure ANY moverment on Syria would be on their terms. Moreover,Syria has been a long ally of Russia in the middle east,even to the effect the Tartus logistics naval facility,is the only one Russia has outside the CIS,and enables its navy to have greater access to the Mediterranean Sea. Considering the number of US bases,in that part of the world,the facility is of symbolic importance to them,especially considering the ME is not really that far from them either.

The US and Europe have supported plenty of oppressive regimes around the world too with state of the art weaponry,so I see double standards when we cry wolf when the Russians and the Chinese do exactly the same.

[TooNice]

Re:Islamist: Well, to begin with, going by the other thread and all the religion thread we've had on Hexus, it really shouldn't be surprising to see people speak less than kindly in regards to religion.
The second thing is in regards to definition of "Islamist". AP has decided to revise the definition of the term stating that it's not to be used as synonym for the militants, extremists or radicals.. but it will probably take some time before the definition is accepted as such (I've yet to drop "Illegal immigrants" from my vocabulary - at least for casual conversations).

We, by which I mean the West, are damned if we do, and damned if we don't.

If that is the case, then the decision seems pretty easy to me (why pay the money and blood). Unless there is a strong (clear cut) moral argument to "do" and damned if we are damned..

[wasabi]

and have said that the koran teaches people to respect the laws of the country, not to kill people etc...

A quick google will find dozens of Suras (verses) from the Koran which contradict this.

[Saracen]

Syria signed weapons deals years ago with Russia and the stuff which has been delivered has been mostly the defensive stuff,ie,antiship missiles and SAM systems.

However,the Russians have held back on significant quantities of offensive weapons which were meant to be already delivered including dozens of MIG29M multirole fighters and YAK130 multirole jet trainers and their associated weapons systems,including new generation air to air and precision guided weapons. Those MIG29M fighters are probably close in capability to Block40 F16 fighter bombers in my estimation.

These could have been game changing if Russia had delivered them,as it would enabled the Syrian armed forces to have much improved all weather and night ground attack capability,which they mostly lack ATM and a fresh stock of guided missiles and functional fighters.

There are also other consideration why Russian and China still support the Syrian government:Libya.

Russia and China abstained(and gave their indirect support) to the creation of the no fly zone,probably with the assumption it would force Gaddafi to negotiation table.

Instead it lead to a NATO lead operation into Africa,which ended up costing the Russians and Chinese billions in civilian and military contracts. After,that pie in th face,they made sure ANY moverment on Syria would be on their terms. Moreover,Syria has been a long ally of Russia in the middle east,even to the effect the Tartus logistics naval facility,is the only one Russia has outside the CIS,and enables its navy to have greater access to the Mediterranean Sea. Considering the number of US bases,in that part of the world,the facility is of symbolic importance to them,especially considering the ME is not really that far from them either.

The US and Europe have supported plenty of oppressive regimes around the world too with state of the art weaponry,so I see double standards when we cry wolf when the Russians and the Chinese do exactly the same.

All good points, and I don't disagree. But, re: the missile deliveries ....

Israeli Defence Minister Moshe Yaalon said: “If they do arrive in Syria, God forbid, we’ll know what to do.”

Great. Just fabulous.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

All good points, and I don't disagree. But, re: the missile deliveries ....


Great. Just fabulous.

LOL,way to put even more oil on a cauldron of fire.

They might not be the power they once were,but prodding the grumpy Russian bear has never been that advisable....!

Edit!!

Interestingly it seems most of the Syrian oil fields are located in rebel held territory:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/midd...y-live-updates

[Whizzkid]

These islamic brotherhood uprisings should be left well alone. Look at Egypt now, place has gone crazy.

Sometimes its better the devil you know than the devil you dont.

[Saracen]

These islamic brotherhood uprisings should be left well alone. Look at Egypt now, place has gone crazy.

Sometimes its better the devil you know than the devil you dont.

Problem is .... well, let's ignore, for a moment, any moral duty it might be argued we have to protect the innocent non-fighting population .... every country can be expected to act in it's own interest.

So, suppose we don't act to protect the people, or help the opposition, yet Assad loses anyway. Now, you've got a government angry with us because we didn't help tnem, and a people angry because we didn't protect them, and never mind that it's an internal dispute in their country and really none of our business.

Like I said, if we interfere, we're imperialist Christians invading Muslim countries, killing Muslims and deserving jihad, and if we don't, we're heartless, callous infidels that don't care about innocent civilian populations, because they're Muslim.

Why the West? Why does it always seem to be us that's supposed to interfere? Godness knows there are enough strong and wealthy Islamic countries that could. Why don't Iran and Saudi Arabia form a joint task force? Oh wait, they're two of the powers having a punch-up by proxy in Syria now.

As I said, damned if we do, damned if we don't.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

It looks like the Mig29M fighters might be delivered to Syria after all:

http://www.france24.com/en/20130531-...ter-jets-syria

A lot of media outlets are spinning this as,is a possible contract being negotiated NOW. This is a load of nonsense,as the contract was actually determined years ago:

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...M-M2-for-Syria

There are actually pictures of the first two production aircraft as part of the order being flown in Russia.

If these are delivered to Syria,expect the Yak130 trainers to follow and a whole load of precision guided weapons to be also shipped as part of the deal too.