Random poll - refunding an ebay buyer, what would you do..?

[sammyc]

Following on from selling an item last year http://forums.hexus.net/general-disc...item-ebay.html the buyer not collecting (see here), I re-sold it yesterday.

I kept it for the buyer for some time and kept in touch with them up to a point, at last contact they were still professing gratitude at my waiting, but still no sign of any firm arrangement to collect. I emailed to say I was going to relist the item well in advance & no reply.

Bearing in mind this is something that's been a hassle, lost me my original 2nd bidder, and been getting in the way for months re storage space, and that I got around a tenner less this time , what would you do vis-a-vis a refund? Buyer hasn't bought anything on ebay since but from googling their email they are alive & well afaik.

Options as per poll.

[jim]

Don't think either option is morally wrong. I'd be inclined to keep the money to compensate myself for being messed around and having my time wasted.

[stevie lee]

send them an email asking how they would like to be refunded as it was obvious they were no longer interested in the item, tell them item was resold and can no longer be offered, refund only option.

no reply = you keep money.
reply = send back money.

you never know, one day whoever it was may check through their ebay history, bank account or whatever, realise they never got the item and tootle off to small claims court and try and get the money back, saying you knowingly defrauded them by keeping the money for no service rendered.

so give them an opportunity for a refund, see what happens.


dads had a few similar ebay weirdness things

[Shirty]

I'd keep quiet and say nothing more about it. Based on past history it seem highly unlikely they are going to get in touch. Only if you are contacted should you then consider what to do, based on the tone and content of the contact you receive.

Personally if they explained it all away convincingly (i.e. family tragedy) I'd probably refund them in full and accept that's part of trading on there.

[sammyc]

Yes, I should have added 'contact them yet again' as an option, shouldn't I.

I suppose I think that no reply wouldn't entirely be a get-out, as I know I can refund them via paypal so it's a bit quibbly - it's not like I need any details off them.

The question is still then, if they say yes refund please, then is that in full or with the difference between amounts deducted, &c. It does seem unlikely that they would contact me but yes, that would be the punctilious thing for me to do I guess.

[Ferral]

See, with something like this the person if they have paid could contact eBay support about it and haul you over the coals and demand a refund that way. I would just hold the money in Paypal and try to refund it. Maybe contact eBay about it and tell them you are wanting to refund.

Way to look at this is how would you feel if someone refused to give you a refund if you say couldn't go and collect something due to unforseen circumstances.

[technodean]

Wow, I remember that post, So its been like 9 months. I'm sure they don't have a leg to stand on after 60 days. If they haven't set up a claim within 60 days its their loss. Plus I would be very surprised if that advert/sale even exists.

[flearider]

it depends how much we are talking about .. £10-50 keep £20 for your time refund the rest .. £50-100 well your getting into hot water .. they could be waiting for a court case .. anything over and you would be at a loss as you have entered into a contract with them ..
and it go's down to how honest you are .. keeping all the money is fraud/theft ..
a clear conscience costs nothing

[sammyc]

See, with something like this the person if they have paid could contact eBay support about it and haul you over the coals and demand a refund that way. I would just hold the money in Paypal and try to refund it. Maybe contact eBay about it and tell them you are wanting to refund.

Way to look at this is how would you feel if someone refused to give you a refund if you say couldn't go and collect something due to unforseen circumstances.

Well it isn't a matter of refusing to refund, as they havent said they can't come & collect, & require a refund instead - they just have made no attempt to collect. The last time/s I contacted them it's been a case of their saying thanks for waiting (months ago) but not making any further arrangement at all. They didn't reply to my saying I will relist if I don't hear from you - so they could have said then, either yes I still want them or no, I can't collect, can you refund.

it depends how much we are talking about .. £10-50 keep £20 for your time refund the rest .. £50-100 well your getting into hot water .. they could be waiting for a court case .. anything over and you would be at a loss as you have entered into a contract with them ..
and it go's down to how honest you are .. keeping all the money is fraud/theft ..
a clear conscience costs nothing

We're talking £50+, so yes, I am considering deducting simply the loss I've made by selling for a lesser amount this time round. Again, it's not so much whether they are likely to pursue the matter, as that I can't get any response from them, so it's down to me if I refund without further contact, back into the paypal they paid with. I added a range of poll options out of interest to get a full range of responses, but for me it's mainly a question of what amount would be fair under the circs.

[Spreadie]

I would just refund them, minus the difference in selling price with maybe a little extra for buggeration. Explain it in detail in the paypal refund notes. Keep hold of copies of any correspondence, just in case they try something in the future. I'm not a legal expert, but that should show that you were trying your best to resolve the issue fairly.

[sammyc]

I would just refund them, minus the difference in selling price with maybe a little extra for buggeration. Explain it in detail in the paypal refund notes.

I personally do think that's fair, although we have 3 votes for full refund. If I did refund their exact payment, I'm around £20 out of pocket, through losing my original fallback buyer + ebay fees etc, which doesn't seem entirely fair. I have been v reasonable with them imo, none of my communications with them have been the slightest bit impatient or shirty (no relation, Shirty101). So they have had ample time to get in touch & at least let me know one way or the other. The whole thing is a bit on the odd side anyway, what with the positive feedback left for me & the tone of their messages. I will most likely message them mooting a part refund and if I don't hear follow up with a paypal refund plus note as you suggest. Very much doubt if they would ever acknowledge it but we'll see.

[peterb]

As other have said - refund less your out-of-pocket expenses. From what you have said, you have acted reasonably, and gave them prior opportunity to collect the item before re-listing it. Keep a record of your correspondence.

It might be worth reading the fine print in Ebay's T&C to see if there is anything about uncollected goods/obligations of the buyer.

[Saracen]

Personally, I think that if something was sold as "to be collected", it's reasonable to expect it to be collected.

My basic position would be to expect time/date to be arranged. If that didn't happen reasonably promptly, I'd email pushing it. If it still didn't happen, I'd give it a week or two and another email or two.

Finally, if I had a postal contact address, I'd send a letter and an email, or just a "final" email if I had no address. I would, at the very least, get a proof of postage certificate for the letter, and depending on the value of the item, perhaps use recorded delivery . That final letter would spell out, very clearly, that I was not prepared to just store the item indefinitely, and that in the event the item was not either collected in a reasonable and specified period (I.e. by a specified date), or at least contact received providing a good reason why it could not be collected and an alternative deadline agreed, I would "dispose of" the item.

The correspondence would start out politely, but would progress to more formal and business-like. That final "recorded" letter/email would be polite but formal, and make clear that the buyer had better either collect, or at least contact by the due date, or I would act to dispose without further contact.

I'm cognisant of the fact that sometimes things happen. It might be illness, bereavement, etc, and would cut people slack, up to a point, IF they just let me know. But if I hear nothing, they'll get 3 or 4 attempts, then I "dispose" of the goods.

If they do have a problem, then I'd gladly hold the goods while they sort it, up to a point. Days yes, weeks maybe, but month after month or indefinitely, no.

Whatever I did, though, would be with a couple of factors in mind :-

- nothing happened without repeated contact attempts
- I acted reasonably, or better at all points
- I had a paper trail of (printed) correspondence, at all times
- before disposal, they were clearlywarned and given a final chance
- I am not a free storage service for an indefinite time period.

Finally, my "disposal" letter would include a suggestion that, if unable to collect themselves, they arrange a mutually convenient time/plsce for a courier to collect, at their cost of course, and that arrangement would NOT include me waiting in all day for a vague courier appointment, but would need to be a reasonably defined time slot, like an hour or two, and would not include me taking a day off to do it.

And my final, final point .... the speed with which I took this line would be directly proportionate to the inconvenience of storing the goods. A small item, like a rare postage stamp, or a computer hard drive, is not a problem to store. But a car, or large chest freezer, etc, would be. The more hassle the storage involved, the less tolerant of delay I would be.

But in any event, anything I did would be something I'd feel comfortable justifying toa small claims court judge as reasonable, if it came to that, and documented such that I had my i's dotted and t's crossed, just in case.

And whether "disposal" would include selling it, dunno, but doubtful.

[sammyc]

Personally, I think that if sonething was sold as "to be collected", it's reasonable to expect it to be collected.

M y basic position would be to expect. time/date to be arranged. If that didn't happen reasonably promptly, I'd email pushing it. If it still didn't happen, I'd give it Ny week or two and another email or two.

Finally, if I had a postal contact address, I'd send a letter and an email, or just a "final" email if I had no address. I would, at the very least, get a proof of postage certificate for the letter, and depending on the value of the item, perhaps use recorded delivery . That final letter would spell out, very clearly, that I was not prepared to just store the item indefinitely, and that in the event the item was not either collected in a reasonable and specified period (I.e. by a specified date), or at least contact received providing a good reason why it could not be collected and an alternative deadline agreed, I would "dispose of" the item.

The correspondence would start out politely, but would progress to more formal and business-like. That final "recorded" letter/email would be polite but formal, and make clear that the buyer had better either collect, or at least contact by the due date, or I would act to dispose without further contact.

In some ways I have probably erred on the softly softly side, where a bit more firmness might have been better. Half the problem was getting the cut of the buyer, as they were not your ordinary chap having a bit of trouble sorting collection, nor were they obvious messers/time-wasters. As I said in my original post, they had only just joined ebay (under that name at least), had 2 pieces of feedback - 1 bad 1 good, and didn't go on to buy anything else. So I kind of left it drag, because to be honest I would have far preferred them to collect than to re-list, and I felt they would do so if given enough rope, as they had already made one preliminary phone call which went nowhere further.

Also, it's harder to define someone as having reneged when you have their money and their item. Still, lesson learned, item hopefully on its way out of my house, no harm done.

Thanks all.

[jimbouk]

I guess this is why, with things like cars, you get a non-refundable deposit. That way it's clear that if they don't collect it they don't get their deposit back.

The safest legal option would be to state a reasonable collection period, a reasonable fee past this period for storage of their property (you have sold it to them, it belongs to them), and state once the value of the item has been reached you will take it as payment for the storage of it. At that point it is yours to sell on again. All of course written, allowing a month to respond before taking action as to cover your behind should they go small claims.

Either that or just refund and cut your losses. Ebay often falls in the favour of buyers, if they claim a refund and point to the auction of you selling the same item again they Ebay will probably just take the money straight from your account and give it to them regardless of the lack of collection.

Oh, and double check the T&Cs...

[Saracen]

....

The safest legal option would be to state a reasonable collection period, a reasonable fee past this period for storage of their property (you have sold it to them, it belongs to them), and state once the value of the item has been reached you will take it as payment for the storage of it. At that point it is yours to sell on again.

....

Erm, no.

If you have a contract, and have sold something, ownership has transferred. Unilaterally giving the money back and pretending the contract doesn't exist does not transfer ownership back.

Once a contract exists, it exists, and you have duties and obligations under it. So does a contract exist?

Well, at it's most basic, a contract requires :-

- offer
- acceptance
- exchange of value, or the "promise" of such
- an intent to be contractually bound.

If you sell something, and it's been paid for, then in the absence of very specific t&c's stipulating exactly when ownership shifts, especially in the conrext of delivery, then I say it changes when the contract comes into force.

But once that contract exists, you cannot unilaterally unmake it just by giving the money back.

If you unilaterally decide to give the money back, and subsequently dispose of the goods, you risk legal action over any resultant losses, and possibly even allegations of theft, as you sold goods that were not yours to sell.

And that latter point is why I said I'd give several clear, provable written warnings that I'd dispose of the goods that hadn't been collected, but personally, wouldn't sell them.

Offer a refund and a cancellation of the sale by all means. If the buyer agrees, fine. But I wouldn't advocate just refunding and assuming the goods automatically revert to your ownership, because in my opinion, that is not the case.

Of course, if someone can't be bothered to collect they probably can't be bothered to sue either, so it might be a pragmatic course of action. But you did say "safest legal option" and that I'd question.