Syria Chemical Attacks - real, fake, premeditated?

[HalloweenJack]

the same evidence and sources that said ` 45 minutes ` for Iraq by Mr Blair??

[peterb]

the same evidence and sources that said ` 45 minutes ` for Iraq by Mr Blair??

It is Blair's legacy that swayed Parliament into voting against action - but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

[HalloweenJack]

It is Blair's legacy that swayed Parliament into voting against action - but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

so you believe the UK should rush into USA action , when evidence supports the small detail that the `rebels` or 1 faction used chemical weapons?

[peterb]

so you believe the UK should rush into USA action , when evidence supports the small detail that the `rebels` or 1 faction used chemical weapons?

I believe that innocent people are dying because nerve agents have been used by Syrians against Syrians.

You believe it is OK to standby and just watch the two sides slug it out - see who can kill the most?

[hacksaw24]

its real..herd it on the news back then.the truth hurts.

[Kai]

I believe that innocent people are dying because nerve agents have been used by Syrians against Syrians.

You believe it is OK to standby and just watch the two sides slug it out - see who can kill the most?

But politician in this country , and other countries pass laws which allow them to do that innocent / poor people every day , the only difference is the poor are too busy fighting between themselves to fight back.

You could even argue its a more valid fight there because at least both sides are fighting for something they believe in , whereas here most people believe in nothing and are divided between themselves. ( we are already conquered )

As for innocents , well that is war , did it stop the US bombing Japan and causing the long lasting effects on the yet to be born ?

Or speeches like this from G Osbourne "This is a hard, difficult road we have been following. But it is the only way to deliver a sustained, lasting improvement in the living standards of the British people." That forget to mention those standards have already come at high price for some us ( namely suicide ) because of groups like ATOS.

Do you think our own government would admit defeat if there was similar scenario as in Syria , any more that Osbourne has admitted the true price for his so called recovery ?

Where were human rights there ?

Unfortunately I dont think any of this going to get any better , until it gets much much worse .

The plight of the world in general reminds of most peoples lives in that sense because it usually only changes when one is forced too against their will , and by that I mean when they are at deaths gate , and realise for the first time they can no longer be who they are.

I actually think of this " great sleep "keeping us from being aware of death , as almost predatory force continually hunting us all the time and depleting us cleverly by making us believe we are in control of what we believe to be our true selves .

On one level it appears we are only because everyone else is asleep too , but you watch out for someone who " as the saying goes " is living their dream and you will see there is also a very close relationship with death too , in fact without death everything is meaningless including God ( why else do you think he came here just to die meekly on a cross ? )

[HalloweenJack]

I believe that innocent people are dying because nerve agents have been used by Syrians against Syrians.

You believe it is OK to standby and just watch the two sides slug it out - see who can kill the most?

so who do you launch your smart guided missiles at? since the rebels are storing chemical agents in cellers of peoples houses....

[peterb]

so who do you launch your smart guided missiles at? since the rebels are storing chemical agents in cellers of peoples houses....

I don't know - who would you launch yours against? Or don't you think it matters?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

[Kai]

Want to see something funny ? just look at whose for and against a strike ( esp against )

[TheAnimus]

so who do you launch your smart guided missiles at? since the rebels are storing chemical agents in cellers of peoples houses....

You need artillery for deploying it. That stuff is kind of what we train our imagery analysis guys to look for.

You can make it quite clear that any use of it will have consequences.

Now if you have a mad man who is hell bent on winning or killing everyone, rather like Hitler was portrayed towards the end of his power trip, then it might not have an effect in stopping him.

Ultimately the persons house who has been turned into a store room has been killed by the rebels. They are not going to get out of such a situation alive, as no one would allow such valuable things to be stored by someone who wasn't loyal (ie you have leverage over).

Do you think we were wrong in Serria Leon?

[b0redom]

@ Kai: Really? You're comparing civil war where people are being massacred in Syria with economic depression in the UK? Really?

I still haven't seen a convincing argument as to why death by chemical weapon is worse than having a building collapse on you and being crushed to death due to long range mortar attack.

The only reason I can see for acting now rather than previously (let's not forget the massacre has been going on for months) is that now we have pretty much proof that chemical weapons are being used, and possibly by the rebels. As the rebels are made up from a number of moderate, and a number of quite frankly mental factions, there is a distinct possibility that they're going to be smuggled out of Syria and used as weapons of terror outside that particular area, and that is concerning for the world at large.

Do I think we should intervene on humanitarian grounds? Definitely.
Who should we side with? Well that's a bit more complicated.
Do I think that the chemical weapons stashes should be secured by the UN? Absolutely.

[TheAnimus]

@ Kai: Really? You're comparing civil war where people are being massacred in Syria with economic depression in the UK? Really?

It's Melon. He is pissed that he isn't getting as much free money as he'd like. Which such in-action to help is obviously on a par with a light bit of genocide.

However that is normal really, people care about themselves first, or something they can identify with. Half of my feeling we should try and make them play nice is that I fear we might be held account for not doing so.

A lot of people my age have been warped by Tony Blair and certain documentary filmmakers who like to re-write history. At uni my housemate genuinely thought that it was George Bush's fault 9/11 happened. Rather than a result of the foreign policies cumulating in the Clinton administration. I mean I liked clintoneconomics and all that, he was my kinda president but ultimately his foreign policy had consequences.

Meanwhile Tony Blair's spin machine just went full retard on Iraq. I think partly because (through no action of his own) he had done a great job of policing in west Africa, remembering the effectiveness of intervention Eastern Europe and such.

At that time I think we had an attitude that an Army is a peace keeping force, the Falklands and such. Quagmires of Korea were memories and the Iraq War deemed a success.

Now we've swung the other way. We want to avoid any action, let them sort it out. People are supporting the views of Putin for ****s sake. The gay hating, offensive comment = jail leader. Pussy Riot. Think about it, that man's interest is the one you are aligning yourself with, then ask what he has to gain by the current quagmire continuing.......

[b0redom]

I don't think you can say that because Putin supports something it's necessarily bad. Like I say, the problem is who do you help? The regime is pretty nasty, but then so are elements of the rebels.

Do you want to be seen to protect the regime, in an attempt to secure the stockpiles of chemical weapons?

Do you want to wipe out the government forces and risk another splintered warring anarchy, but one which contains significant quantities of chemical agents?

Enforcing a no-fly zone and surgical strikes will not help. If intervention is going to be made, there needs to be a consensus on a long term plan.

[HalloweenJack]

I don't know - who would you launch yours against? Or don't you think it matters?

I didn't say I would launch air strikes - but remember , pearl harbour wasn't actually an act of war - just limited 1 day air strikes with no boots on the ground



The Aniums;

artillery of any sort can be moved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejU4gGxRrrw

[peterb]

- but remember , pearl harbour wasn't actually an act of war - just limited 1 day air strikes with no boots on the ground

Which is completely irrelevant as the context was different. The US fleet at Pearl Harbour were not shelling civilian populations with nerve agents - and at that point the US was not at war with Japan.

[Kai]

@ Kai: Really? You're comparing civil war where people are being massacred in Syria with economic depression in the UK? Really?

No I am not saying as whole we are the same , but what I am saying is that the government policies will , and have the, same overall effect of killings us one way or the other, and in fact are already doing so with some because they can no longer cope or afford to sustain themselves.

You could even argue the Iraq war itself was a massacre on the troops that went just as much as enemy ( see here ) and for what ?

But decisions made by those in the very government they were fighting for , that turned out to be lies..

Death is Death ( as you seem aware of in your comment below ) so what difference it makes whether its massacre , slowly starving or being incapacitated by health problems that destroy you slowly over a long period of time , none of them are pleasant IMO and none appealing unless someone maybe gave me Barbiturates and some sleeping pills.

I still haven't seen a convincing argument as to why death by chemical weapon is worse than having a building collapse on you and being crushed to death due to long range mortar attack.