Syria Chemical Attacks - real, fake, premeditated?

[HalloweenJack]

Which is completely irrelevant as the context was different. The US fleet at Pearl Harbour were not shelling civilian populations with nerve agents - and at that point the US was not at war with Japan.

which means you have made your opinion up on who is responsible for the gas attack. As have I - it was the FSA - for the second time.

[peterb]

which means you have made your opinion up on who is responsible for the gas attack. As have I - it was the FSA - for the second time.

It is more credible that Assad is using chemical weapons - not that it matters much to the people affected.

However, if you have made up your mind, there isn't much point in continuing the debate.

[peterb]

I still haven't seen a convincing argument as to why death by chemical weapon is worse than having a building collapse on you and being crushed to death due to long range mortar attack.

Well you could apply that argument to death by nuclear explosion (very quick if you are at the impact zone - incineration in microseconds) but less good for those caught in the fallout. Nerve agents are particularly indiscriminate - cause a lingering death in sub-immediately lethal doses. Other gases used in warefare (used from WW1) such as chlorine or mustard gas, can cause long term disability. However, these side effects are also a potential side effect of conventional weapons.

However the nerve agents are tasteless, colourless and undetectble until it is too late, and difficult to shelter from - and indiscriminate - which is why various article in the Geneva conventions on warfare prohibit their use.

[HalloweenJack]

It is more credible that Assad is using chemical weapons - not that it matters much to the people affected.

However, if you have made up your mind, there isn't much point in continuing the debate.

The same for you - you seem hell bent on wanting WW3 and pursuing the USA agenda.... why??


its far more obvious the FSA are using chemical weapons , they have used them before , on numerous occasions.

[peterb]

which means you have made your opinion up on who is responsible for the gas attack. As have I - it was the FSA - for the second time.

You seem hell bent on supporting a regime that has manufactured and used chemical weapons on numerous occasions (14 according to some reports) ... why?

[TheAnimus]

The same for you - you seem hell bent on wanting WW3 and pursuing the USA agenda.... why??

Why would this lead to WW3?

[peterb]

Why would this lead to WW3?

Well obviously it wouldn't, but hey, what's wrong with a bit of sensationalism if the facts are weak or absent?

WW3 probably lies in the gift of North Korea at the moment.

[TheAnimus]

WW3 probably lies in the gift of North Korea at the moment.

Doubt even they could. The US isn't stupid enough to do anything to save SK, without China giving some kind of nod. Ultimately DPRK can only do such a thing with China being brought in to it. Most of the problems exist at the moment because China just wants the place to go away.

Given that capitalism has replaced the official distribution, I doubt they would ever be able to stop it without a nasty civil war.

So yeah, bad news for Soul, but the rest of us don't really care.

[HalloweenJack]

USA are enacting regime changes when the current government doesn't toe the USA approved line - Iraq , Libya , Egypt (via subversion) ; bought off Saudi and ofc Israell.

iran is the big prize - rumour say its oil reserves now stand bigger than Saudi.....



and its great you want to boimb Assad - shout loudly enough for it to happen , and ignore the facts; much like BLAIR and Iraq in 2003 - lets make up things like ` 45minutes`, to scare people.


the FSA have used Sarin in Aleppo , proven on video , eye witness accounts and investigations ; the FSA also kill non muslims , for being , well , a non muslim. but lets not let the whiter than white FSA get in the way of horrible Assad bombing now

[HalloweenJack]

Doubt even they could. The US isn't stupid enough to do anything to save SK, without China giving some kind of nod. Ultimately DPRK can only do such a thing with China being brought in to it. Most of the problems exist at the moment because China just wants the place to go away.

Given that capitalism has replaced the official distribution, I doubt they would ever be able to stop it without a nasty civil war.

So yeah, bad news for Soul, but the rest of us don't really care.

South Korea - should have been obvious the USA wernt going to actually do anything when SK troops and ships were being bombed and the US did nothing.... would take a direct attack on the US bases for them to act tbh..


why are the US still having bases in Germany and the UK?

[TheAnimus]

They where being shelled, not bombed.

Also, still waiting to hear why a bit of paramilitary policing would start WW3.

[HalloweenJack]

geo politics - the Russians and Chinese are already making noises , al if the USA goes in very very hard then Hezbollah via Syrian equipment could retaliate , and Israel wouldn't hesitate to use nukes. at that point after a pause it all goes to hell in a hand basket.

torpedoed more actually - the North torpedoed a south corvette....

as for policing - will the US police the side actually committing the atrocities or just go and attack Assad? plenty of evidence exists of war crimes committed by the FSA and is affiliates

[b0redom]

No I am not saying as whole we are the same , but what I am saying is that the government policies will , and have the, same overall effect of killings us one way or the other, and in fact are already doing so with some because they can no longer cope or afford to sustain themselves.

Death is Death ( as you seem aware of in your comment below ) so what difference it makes whether its massacre , slowly starving or being incapacitated by health problems that destroy you slowly over a long period of time , none of them are pleasant IMO and none appealing unless someone maybe gave me Barbiturates and some sleeping pills.

Melon/Kai, you seem to be confusing lack of support from the state and the state actively killing you. They are two different things, and I suggest you think on that for a bit.

[b0redom]

Well you could apply that argument to death by nuclear explosion (very quick if you are at the impact zone - incineration in microseconds) but less good for those caught in the fallout. Nerve agents are particularly indiscriminate - cause a lingering death in sub-immediately lethal doses. Other gases used in warefare (used from WW1) such as chlorine or mustard gas, can cause long term disability. However, these side effects are also a potential side effect of conventional weapons.

However the nerve agents are tasteless, colourless and undetectble until it is too late, and difficult to shelter from - and indiscriminate - which is why various article in the Geneva conventions on warfare prohibit their use.

At the risk of upsetting Melon/Kai, this was my argument, so I'll reply. Chemical/biological/nuclear weapons all suck. The reason for that is that they are weapons of mass destruction, and are as likely to kill civilians as military targets. I still fail to see the difference between someone dropping a cluster bomb, napalming, or even long range mortaring though. In the end the target ends up dead. When the US drops a bunker buster from thousands of feet up it' silent, tasteless, colourless and undetectable right until the point it hits.

The Geneva convention only holds for countries who have subscribed to it. It's not a worldwide standard on what is allowable and what isn't.

[Kai]

Melon/Kai, you seem to be confusing lack of support from the state and the state actively killing you. They are two different things, and I suggest you think on that for a bit.

If a fish is put into a tank that stops it from swimming anywhere , and without the necessary support, tell me what happens ?

[b0redom]

Right, but presumably you're equating the state with the fish relocator. You're still comparing a state who is actively killing people with a state (which you feel) is not supporting it's citizens. One is active, the other is passive. Chalk and cheese IMO.