Why are we not leaving the EU ?

[santa claus]

Like Switzerland?

Insularity wouldn't suit us.

[wasabi]

Insularity wouldn't suit us.

Why?

[Saracen]

I don't think the British public can ever make an informed decision on EU membership because it's still not clear to what extent the EU government wants to push the Federal States of Europe.

....

It isn't?

It might not be entirely clear what the views and intentions of some/all member states are, and far less clear what the wishes of the peoples of those states are, but it seems pretty clear what the objectives of the EU itself are .... more and more EU.

[Saracen]

We are in Europe (though thankfully not the Eurozone) and there is no way we are coming out nor do I think we should. Forget about a referendum, we cannot survive the tiger economies unless we are part of the EU.

We should stop this faffing about with all this 'in or out' lark and get our best people into Europe to cement our identity and to make English the singularly important language of Europe.

As a Country that comprises Scots, Welsh, English and Irish we are uniquely gifted, as evidenced in history, to bring our leadership and way of life to the benefit of others.

It is understandable that Europe isn't always viewed as serving our interests and that's because it isn't; the many member states are entitled to expect their interests to be acknowledged too.

Let's get hold of Europe and do what we do best: lead. The time is ripe. The alternative is being hung out to dry across the channel and the pond.

I would agree with that IF we, the people, had ever given consent to be part of an EU.

The problem is, we haven't been. We were asked, AFTER being taken into the Common Market, also without a by-your-leave by government, if we wanted to commit economic suicide by leaving? And we were, at that time, categorically and vehemently guaranteed that it did NOT involve most of the things that differentiate the EU from the Common Market/EEC, like common borders, common passports, single currency, interference in judicial or legislative process, common foreign policy, and so forth.

it was, really, just a trading partnership.

And THAT is why we not only need a referendum, and deserve one, but why a lot of pro-EU people and politicians now publicly say it's not only desirable, but inevitable.

Put it this way, Santa. If you want what you say you want, you ought to be rooting for a referendum. Why? Because if you have one, AND can win it, it'll shoot UKIP's dog stone dead, and that of the Eurosceptic conservatives with it. It will be the settled will of the people.

Of course, if the people vote "out" then THAT is the settled will, etc.

Either way, the current situation with the UK at the fringes, seen by many in Europe as a moaning malcontent nation, is the worst of all options.

We should either, as you suggest, get on with it, or as many prefer, get out. Not stand on the edges, bitching.

And unless there's a referendum, you are NOT going to get that whole-hearted participation, and with further integration necessary because of the poop the Euro is in, we are going to end up even more on the side-lines, with even more bitching.

As long as the argument can be made that the EU is being foisted on the people, with NO democratic mandate, and the EU is seen as, and can be portrayed as, interfering foreign busybodies telling us to run our country, the scepticism isn't going away and the bitterness willingly get worse.

The worst of it for those believing as you do? If that referendum had been held, as it should have been, pre-Maastricht, or at the very latest, pre-Lisbon (and certainly pre-Euro crisis) the odds of winning it would have been better.

IMHO, if you want that whole-hearted commitment, there is absolutely NO other way to get it than a referendum, and then, of course, your viewpoint will have to win the argument.

And nobody, but nobody, supporter of in or out, knows who'll win.

And without a referendum, nobody gets what they want. The 'out' crowd won't, but nor will those wanting in, and happy/keen about, or at least resigned to, membership.

[santa claus]

Why?

Because

If you want what you say you want, you ought to be rooting for a referendum. Why? Because if you have one, AND can win it, it'll shoot UKIP's dog stone dead, and that of the Eurosceptic conservatives with it.

A referendum will result in malcontent either way. We are in Europe because our elected Government took us there; my view is that we ought to make the best of it. It isn't beyond our means to become the influence we need to be.

UKIP are a jingoistic irrelevance.

[scaryjim]

hang on a second - we're arguing this whole thing on the basis that the EU wishes to remove power from Westminster and that this is a bad thing.

So, hands up who thinks our government - the current one or the previous - does a good job? Perhaps this is the perfect opportunity to take power away from the sycophantic, bumbling inept idiots who think they run the country. I don't really see how it could get any worse....

[dacads]

Because the gov likes to screw us over

/thread

[wasabi]

hang on a second - we're arguing this whole thing on the basis that the EU wishes to remove power from Westminster and that this is a bad thing.

So, hands up who thinks our government - the current one or the previous - does a good job? Perhaps this is the perfect opportunity to take power away from the sycophantic, bumbling inept idiots who think they run the country. I don't really see how it could get any worse....

All government is a (debatably) necessary evil. I don't see how having an even more remote bunch of bureaucrats representing 750 million people benefits me more than a bunch of bureaucrats representing 60 million. Though of course we'd end up with both.

Never mind the inevitable wasteful pork-barrel legislation and logrolling that goes on in united-states environment.

[OilSheikh]

The govt. keeps talking about immigration controls for people from outside the EU, immigration needs to apply to EU people as well. In fact, Eastern Europeans are more unskilled! I am pretty sure it takes a lot of expertise to work in Prett or Starbucks! How come every sandwich shop and every Prett, Costa, Starbucks, Subway, etc. in London is manned by Europeans ? And, I believe one of these companies even have a policy of no-British allowed!

[HalloweenJack]

£400 million is nothing compared to the waste in the public sector - tv`s for police stations at £1000 a go (and the same from currys is £200) ; and don't get me started on the entire ` preffered bidder` for nhs contracts.


you want to save money? the entire public sector purchasing needs a huge overhaul - with the axe coming everywhere.

[george1979]

The govt. keeps talking about immigration controls for people from outside the EU, immigration needs to apply to EU people as well. In fact, Eastern Europeans are more unskilled! I am pretty sure it takes a lot of expertise to work in Prett or Starbucks! How come every sandwich shop and every Prett, Costa, Starbucks, Subway, etc. in London is manned by Europeans ? And, I believe one of these companies even have a policy of no-British allowed!

Really? It works both ways - I forget the exact figures but I believe there's close on a million Brits living in the rest of the EU? Should we uproot the 400,000 Brits living in Spain, and the rest in other EU nations, draw the curtains and peer suspiciously out over the channel at those pesky foreigners? Or is it just particular countries you have an issue with?

Also how do you back up statements like 'Eastern Europeans are more unskilled'? In your OP you complain about unemployed EU migrants costing us £1m a day yet in your last post you mention how you only ever see foreigners working in these sandwich shops. So on the one hand you complain about a few coming here and not finding work but also complain about the ones who are working and contributing to society? They're damned if they do and damned if they don't in your eyes.

In my own hopelessly optimistic view I see this as a good thing. Near my local neighbourhood I've seen businesses pop up to serve the Polish communities. These were run down parts of town that the Poles are working hard in and helping to regenerate. They are living in the cheapest areas and improving them - when our own government and people won't lift a finger to help. For the most part immigrants help to bolster and revitalize economies by regenerating run down areas, providing young able bodied workers, starting their own businesses and eventually generating employment.

Try looking beyond the fact that they don't speak with your accent and give them a chance. I'd rather give my taxes in benefits to a Pole looking for a job and trying to make something of himself than to some of the work-shy, lazy, benefit sponging layabouts us proud Brits have managed to spawn over the last 40 years or so...

[steve threlfall]

The govt. keeps talking about immigration controls for people from outside the EU, immigration needs to apply to EU people as well. In fact, Eastern Europeans are more unskilled! I am pretty sure it takes a lot of expertise to work in Prett or Starbucks! How come every sandwich shop and every Prett, Costa, Starbucks, Subway, etc. in London is manned by Europeans ? And, I believe one of these companies even have a policy of no-British allowed!

Really?

[peterb]

hang on a second - we're arguing this whole thing on the basis that the EU wishes to remove power from Westminster and that this is a bad thing.

So, hands up who thinks our government - the current one or the previous - does a good job? Perhaps this is the perfect opportunity to take power away from the sycophantic, bumbling inept idiots who think they run the country. I don't really see how it could get any worse....

By giving it to the sycophantic, bumbling inept idiots who try to run Europe.

[santa claus]

By giving it to the sycophantic, bumbling inept idiots who try to run Europe.

One reason why we need to get in there and sort it out. We should be leading a United Nations of Europe unless you prefer Ein volk, Ein reich, Ein Europe

[Saracen]

....

A referendum will result in malcontent either way. We are in Europe because our elected Government took us there; my view is that we ought to make the best of it. It isn't beyond our means to become the influence we need to be.

UKIP are a jingoistic irrelevance.

Yes, there will be malcontents. Put a dozen people in a room and you'll find some that want to be in a different room, some that detest their co-occupiers, some that want to redecorate in a different colour, and no more than three that can agree on a single takeaway order for dinner. That's human nature.

But, after a referendum (on the EU, not the takeaway order) the malcontents can be legitimately told to shut the bleep up, because the matter was settled by a referendum.

UKIP may be jingoistic, and I guess we'll have a better view on how relevant they are after next year's European elections, where many polls suggest they'll come first.

But jingoistic or not, they have at least one point .... we, the people, have never been asked. Governments are elected to govern on our behalf, not to give the right to govern away.

You may well be right that we could become that influence. But do you think we will be, or can be, while our EU partners know there is a significant and very vocal body of opinion here that wants out, and that the pressure for a referendum is there, bubbling away, and is not going away short of holding the referendum?

The referendum would lance the boil, and either way, settle the issue.

[OilSheikh]

Really?

Yup, there was an article about this some months ago... about how British employees get weeded out in the selection process.