ASBOs for Blair and Blunkett?

[Rave]

Well Rave (and Ben), I too am an Atheist, but it’s a figure of speech. I sing God Save the Queen, but I don't believe in God. I say Jesus, many times, in many different ways, all are simply figures of speech.

Once again a complete failure to comment on the actual point.

Eh? I used the term in a Liberal do-nothing and everything will be Ok kind of way. There is no connection to homosexuality.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=limp-wristed

First two definitions: effeminate, and homosexual. Be more careful with your choice of words.

Fact remains, the system is more secure than the current one.

How is that a 'fact'?

Sneer away, I think we have heard your best argument now anyway, and as it was a series of random examples that prove nothing, you yourself have proved nothing.

Yeah cheers for the random insult, but you are the man who AFAIK has NEVER replied directly to a point I have made, rather you choose to change the subject every time. Please, pick a specific example of where I am wrong and correct me. If the argument is constantly changing, then we're just going round in circles.

Well, because being a noisy neighbor or dumping litter, whilst a crime, isn't the sort of thing you are going to send the Flying Squad around for, that's why.

Yeah, but there are some policemen who aren't members of the flying squad are there not? What are they for, if not to stop people comitting offenses like that?

ASBOs deal with repeat offenders, committing what seem petty crimes, but which have the ability to make people's lives a misery.

They're meant to deal with that certainly. I contend that in fact all they do is shift the problem to other areas- or delay the need to actually arrest and punish criminals who are unlikely to be deterred by a court order.

A yob is a yob. There is not always a cause of yobbish behaviour -

Of course there's always a cause. Either people are simply born to be yobs, or they become them as a result of the circumstances in which they find themselves. Either is a cause. But semantics aside:

its just a few people who think they can get away with it, until they are come down hard on. With, oh I don't know, say... an ASBO?

Here's an interesting one, a google for 'asbo success':

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=asbo+success

Care to find me an entry in there which actually details an instance of an asbo succesfully reducing anti-social behavior? The councils etc. seem to think that securing the Asbo is the success in itself. Unfortunately they need to be enforced, and if the police are in an area to enforce the Asbo, they could just as succesfully be in the area to enforce the basic laws of the land, no Asbo required. They're pointless.

Rich :¬)

[Rave]

It occurs to me that anyone following the first link on the google page I gave might get the impression that Asbos have worked in Manchester. Here's the crime stats from Manchester council's own website:

Trends in crime and disorder 1998 - 2001
Key crimes
The total number of key crimes fell by 1.7% in the period April 1998 to March 2001. Between 1998/99 and 1999/00 crimes increased by 3.5%. Between 1999/00 and 2000/01 crime fell by 5.0%. The largest fall in the number of crimes was in residential burglary: the level of burglary fell by 2,860 from 11,822 in 1998/99 to 8,962 in 2000/01. The next largest fall was in theft of a vehicle, which fell by 1,400 incidents from 9,680 in 1998/99 to 8,280 in 2000/01.The largest increase in a crime type was criminal damage other than a vehicle which rose by 1,336 incidents from 8,527 in 1998/99 to 9,863 in 2000/01.The second largest increase was also in a criminal damage category, this time criminal damage to a vehicle which rose by 795 incidents 6,452 in 1998/99 to 7,247 incidents in 2000/01.

Disorder (GMR categories)
Disorder incidents increased by 6.0% in the period between April 1998 and March 2001. Between 1998/99 and 1999/00 recorded disorder increased by 4.9%. Between 1999/00 and 2000/01 recorded disorder increased by 1.0%.The largest increase in a disorder category was in juvenile nuisance, which rose by 1,570 between 1998/99 and 2000/01.The next largest rise was in disturbances on the street, which rose by 836 over the three year period. The largest fall was in recovered stolen vehicles, which fell by 559 in the three-year period.

Looking good.

Rich :¬)

[nichomach]

Well, they're not COMPLETELY pointless depending on your viewpoint; they are a handy way of easily criminalising otherwise non-criminal, or non-arrestable, behaviour. The ASBO doesn't require there to be any criminal offence to have been committed in order to be put into place. However, breaching an ASBO is a criminal offence in itself, and is arrestable, and carries a possible custodial sentence. So to a certain extent it can be used to extend the range of behaviour which is criminalised without legislation.

[Purple]

hence issueing one for a cheesy smile

[Stewart]

Once again a complete failure to comment on the actual point.

You didn't make a point to comment on, you quoted Ben Franklin and said you were an Atheist. I said 'so am I, its a figure of speech', refering to my use of the phrase 'Thank God'.

First two definitions: effeminate, and homosexual. Be more careful with your choice of words.

No need to; perhaps you could be less eager to intentionaly misunderstand what I've said, so you can try to label me a homophobe? Its a bit silly really, and I'm sure you can do better.

How is that a 'fact'?

ID cards for everyone, bio-metric information on everyone stored on a database isn't more secure than not having ID cards, not having that information? I know you see yourself as a bit of a civil right warrior on these issues, I seem to remember some nonsense posted by you a while back, saying you were going to eat your own hands or something to avoid being fingerprinted (I'm sure it was less drastic, the details escape me), but whatever, its clear you feel this is wrong. How you can feel it wouldn't be more secure though, I really don't know.

Yeah cheers for the random insult, but you are the man who AFAIK has NEVER replied directly to a point I have made, rather you choose to change the subject every time. Please, pick a specific example of where I am wrong and correct me. If the argument is constantly changing, then we're just going round in circles.

I think you may be kidding yourself mate, I address everything you bring up and answer it, I also make my own points. So far, you've quoted Ben Fraklin at me, tried to connect my comments with homophobia, probably because you couldn't think of nything else to say, and now have the cheek to accuse me of not answering you directly. You've got a cheek, mate.

Yeah, but there are some policemen who aren't members of the flying squad are there not? What are they for, if not to stop people comitting offenses like that?

You want our Police Force to spend its time telling people to clean their front gardens of litter, or stop shouting? The Police are there to enforce the law, of course, but they are not going to spend 90% of their time dealing with a few Chav families and their noisy dog, are they? ASBOs are for, as I said (and seeing as you accused me of not replying to you directly, obviously didn't read) people commiting seemingly petty offences that ca make people#s life a misery if not dealt with.

You will do well to remember Rave, that just because you do not understand how they work, it doesn't mean that they don't work. That's just ignorance on your part.

They're meant to deal with that certainly. I contend that in fact all they do is shift the problem to other areas- or delay the need to actually arrest and punish criminals who are unlikely to be deterred by a court order.

They are custom made to deal with the sorts of problems that need dealing with in society though. I'm sure you'd think it better if the Police were called everytime some kids are throwing stones or a dog wont stop barking, or a garden is littered with rubbish, but really, it would be a complete cock-up of a situation. ASBOs are, as I said, custom made to deal with these problems. I want the police preventing muggings, catching proper criminals mate, don't know about you.

If someone is playing loud music at all hours, fine call the police, but for repeat offenders, its obvious you need something else. Like, say... an ASBO.

Think on...

Of course there's always a cause. Either people are simply born to be yobs, or they become them as a result of the circumstances in which they find themselves. Either is a cause. But semantics aside:

Point is, there is no great cause, beyond, perhaps, lack of proper parental guidance. A yob is, as I said, a yob. In todays PC society, you can't have a Bobby on the beat clipping a kid around the ear, he might get sued in the Court of Human Rights. So, a omdern plague needs a modern solution, like say... ASBOs.

Think on...

Also, can I just ask - do you just object to them because I'm in favour, or are you really opposed? If so, is it another civil right issue with you? Do you defend the rights of groups of teenagers to smash windows for a laugh? The rights of people to leave dogs barking all night and threaten anyone who complains with violence? Maybe the rights of kids to bunk off school and spend the day harrassing people in shopping centers?

I don't, and I think a deterent, like may, oh say... an ASBO might be the answer.

Think on...

[TiG]

I think for MrAnderson and Howard, you'd find this subject called political satire, things like you'd find on Have i got new for you. The funny thing about this discussion, is that its very very true about the important issues that are being discussed, and personally i like looking at politics in a light hearted mode, and I do find nichomach's initial post interesting in at least, people can joke about the country's problems.

Vaul i think is pretty much our hard liner on here tho, i very much fall into the middle ground with my own views and beliefs. I certainly don't believe that we can strip away civil liberty to just stop this "terrorism thing". Yes i believe there is a threat, put i certainly think there is less of a threat now than say when the IRA was very active.

Is terrorism via islamic groups worse than groups like ETA in spain?. I certainly don't think so yet we seem to gloss over things like that. I don't see the american government stopping the homeland american guard stocking up with weapons. I mean didn't Timothy McVeigh destroy a american government building too?.....

TiG

[Stewart]

Well, they're not COMPLETELY pointless depending on your viewpoint; they are a handy way of easily criminalising otherwise non-criminal, or non-arrestable, behaviour. The ASBO doesn't require there to be any criminal offence to have been committed in order to be put into place. However, breaching an ASBO is a criminal offence in itself, and is arrestable, and carries a possible custodial sentence. So to a certain extent it can be used to extend the range of behaviour which is criminalised without legislation.

Exactly. As I've said a million times in the thread, its for petty anti-social (hence, obviously the name) behaviour, so called 'nuisance' neighbours. Its not just a legal issue, and its not the solution to get the SAS around to storm the building and arrest everyone.

It is, however a major issue - you have heard of the 'Crime and Grime' battle ground on which is it wildly predicted the next election will be fought on?

Yobs off the street and then said street given a bit of a clean. That is what the major parties (and the Liberal Democrats) will all be pushing this time around.

[Stewart]

Is terrorism via islamic groups worse than groups like ETA in spain?.

Only in as much as the Islamic Terrorists have no stated goal, beyond a world wide Islamic state; so there is no room for talks; they will continue until they are killed or have killed us. ETA have stated demands, as did the IRA. Obviously, demands that no government was ever going to give into, but it brings people to the table to talk, and peace has a chance.

Can you ever see Bin Laden and Blair sitting down to discuss a settlement?

And, of course, the Islamic Extremeists have declared war on the Western World, on Democracy, on everything we stand for and (as they found out) will fight and die for.

[nichomach]

Exactly. As I've said a million times in the thread...

Quite so; but do you think that it's a good idea to effectively extend the range of behaviour which has criminal penalties without that extension being reviewed by Parliament? I'm not saying that ASBOs are a completely terrible idea but there ARE civil liberties implications. Also the application of them seems somehow rather selective; for instance applying ASBOs to prostitutes working the street, but not to the kerb-crawlers soliciting them (and women that they've mistaken for them)?

[Stewart]

Quite so; but do you think that it's a good idea to effectively extend the range of behaviour which has criminal penalties without that extension being reviewed by Parliament? I'm not saying that ASBOs are a completely terrible idea but there ARE civil liberties implications. Also the application of them seems somehow rather selective; for instance applying ASBOs to prostitutes working the street, but not to the kerb-crawlers soliciting them (and women that they've mistaken for them)?

There are issues that needs looking at, but to be hoenst, but why do you always look to the civil liberties of those commiting the offence, whilst ignoring the exact same liberties of those who are really the victims?

Worry less about the civil liberties of people smashing windows, dumping litter and threatening neighbours with violence, and worry a bit more about the liberties of those having their windows smashed, having to live next to a rubbish tip, or being threatened.

[Zak33]

its side tracking a bit.....suits me fine

Dont ever get an ASBO slapped on your neighbour. If you do, you MUST announce it to prosepctive purchasers of your house. If you have an ASBO or any other court injunction on your neighbours, you will find it a nightmare to sell. Becuase it MUST be announced and will show up in local searches.

And therefore...once again....we fall into a pit or our own creating. You hate where you live. You CANT report it cos if you DO and it goes anywhere you then find it hard to move away.

By the way, I am arguing with no one..just stoking really.

And on Vaul's side more than Nicho or Rave's but happy to at least TRY to think of a good retort. Failing, mind you.

[nichomach]

There are issues that needs looking at...

Lyndon Johnson said something once which I considered quite sensible; roughly, to judge the merits of a law, you don't look at its benefits or advantages if properly applied, you look at its capacity for harm if applied mischievously. I think you rather miss the point of my concerns; you're assuming that ASBOs will always be applied to a guilty party; they won't, any more than everyone that the police arrest will be guilty. Moreover, guilty of what? As it stands, you can have an ASBO applied to you for behaviour which isn't criminal and be sent to prison for acts which would be legal were anyone else to undertake them.

Smashing windows is criminal damage; there are already laws to cover that. It doesn't need an ASBO. Same goes for threatening violence; it's covered by the law on assault. Litter dumping is also an offence.

[TiG]

And, of course, the Islamic Extremeists have declared war on the Western World, on Democracy, on everything we stand for and (as they found out) will fight and die for.

The IRA didn't come to the peace table Sinn Fein did, ETA doesn't come to the table Batasuna did (well actually it got banned from the spanish government)

The same is true for PLO and Hamass, one is the political party and the other is the terrorists. I think the problem I have is the means are the same, terrorists attempt to kill people and cause terror to further their aims..

However all these struggles are "local", and hence there may be the local political will to solve these problems. With a world terrorism who do you talk to, have we even tried?.

The problem is that the western world is their own worst enemy when it comes to the quoted statement....

I personally think we as the so called "developed" world declared war on the ways and cultures we don't understand either. Are we not the culture that prides ourself on democracy???.

On finding peaceful ways of resolving conflict?.

But the same is true even on these boards, we prove it ourselves....

Imposing our views on others just starts CONFLICT

TiG

[Stewart]

Lyndon Johnson said something once which I considered quite sensible; roughly, to judge the merits of a law, you don't look at its benefits or advantages if properly applied, you look at its capacity for harm if applied mischievously. I think you rather miss the point of my concerns; you're assuming that ASBOs will always be applied to a guilty party; they won't, any more than everyone that the police arrest will be guilty. Moreover, guilty of what? As it stands, you can have an ASBO applied to you for behaviour which isn't criminal and be sent to prison for acts which would be legal were anyone else to undertake them.

Smashing windows is criminal damage; there are already laws to cover that. It doesn't need an ASBO. Same goes for threatening violence; it's covered by the law on assault. Litter dumping is also an offence.

True, but the vast majority of people will be guilty of anti-social behaviour.

I mean, our justice system has convicted inoccent people before, and will do again, but its still the best system we have for punishing those who step outside the law.

If we scrap ASBOs on the basis that they are not 100% certain to deal with 100% guilty people 100% of the time, then we should also scrap the crminal justice system, perhaps for the 'Float or Sink' trial method used in the Middle Ages.

[Rave]

No need to; perhaps you could be less eager to intentionaly misunderstand what I've said, so you can try to label me a homophobe? Its a bit silly really, and I'm sure you can do better.

Yeah, and I'm sure you can do better than to pepper every point you make with random barbs accusing everyone you disagree with of being weak.

ID cards for everyone, bio-metric information on everyone stored on a database isn't more secure than not having ID cards, not having that information? I know you see yourself as a bit of a civil right warrior on these issues, I seem to remember some nonsense posted by you a while back, saying you were going to eat your own hands or something to avoid being fingerprinted (I'm sure it was less drastic, the details escape me), but whatever, its clear you feel this is wrong. How you can feel it wouldn't be more secure though, I really don't know.

O.K., I'll tell you. It's because I can't think of an instance where the police having access to a biometric scan of somebody's iris could conceivably assist in the prevention of a crime or terrorist act. It's already easy to identify people in this country. If the security services have reason to believe that somebody is actively plotting terrorism, how do you think they came by that information? By actively monitoring them, perhaps? That would imply that they know who they're looking for already.

If you can think of an example though, feel free to enlighten me.

I think you may be kidding yourself mate, I address everything you bring up and answer it

O.K., the questions in this thread I have yet to see you answer are:

1: What your claim to being working class involves
2: "Yeah, muggers and terrorists get away all the time because the police can't identify them, don't they?"

Several others have received a roundabout answer or have been answered with another question, but let's not get into a handbagging session about debating ettiquette (and let's not debate who started it either).

You want our Police Force to spend its time telling people to clean their front gardens of litter,

No. I'd contend that people's front gardens are their do do with as they wish.

or stop shouting? The Police are there to enforce the law, of course, but they are not going to spend 90% of their time dealing with a few Chav families and their noisy dog, are they?

Well since they're apparently the most pressing issue of the day, I don't see why not?

You will do well to remember Rave, that just because you do not understand how they work, it doesn't mean that they don't work. That's just ignorance on your part.

Random insult number.....I lose count

[/QUOTE]They are custom made to deal with the sorts of problems that need dealing with in society though. I'm sure you'd think it better if the Police were called everytime some kids are throwing stones or a dog wont stop barking, or a garden is littered with rubbish, but really, it would be a complete cock-up of a situation. ASBOs are, as I said, custom made to deal with these problems. I want the police preventing muggings, catching proper criminals mate, don't know about you.[/QUOTE]

Either something is illegal or it isn't, that's the point. The people comitting the muggings are in most cases the people comitting other sorts of anti-social behaviour anyway. Asbos don't seem to have any demonstrable effect in reducing the amount of reported crime.

Also, can I just ask - do you just object to them because I'm in favour, or are you really opposed?

Yep, I'm really opposed. I have a train to catch now, I'll comment on the flagrant putting words into my mouth later. Probably when I get back from the pub.

Rich :¬)

[Stewart]

O.K., the questions in this thread I have yet to see you answer are:

1: What your claim to being working class involves
2: "Yeah, muggers and terrorists get away all the time because the police can't identify them, don't they?"

Well, my claim to be working class is not something I expect to have to proove, I am working class - what, you think because I own a PC and know (in a round-about way) how to type, I must be middle class? You'd be suprised Rave; most of us have inside toliets now.

Class isn't something you can choose, nor something you can change - give a working class person money and a big house, they are not middle class, they are a working class person with some money and a big house.

Rest assured though, I read the Sun, don't know what the capital of Canada is, never listen to Radio 4, always listen to Radio 1, say 'innit' a lot and wear baggy jeans. Is that what I need to be working class? Of the above, I only actually read the Sun.

I'm a bit taken back that you think I need to, in some way prove that I am working class; if I wasn't, why would I claim to be so?

As for point 2 - the point is, this system would make identity fraud much harder, making some aspects of criminal activity harder to carry out. All people, terrorist included have to exsist in society for a while, just like the 9/11 hijackers had to live in America for a while, as 'normal' people. You need documents to get about, to get in and out of the country, etc.

Any system which makes this harder for criminals to do is a step in the right direction.

I'll comment on the flagrant putting words into my mouth later. Probably when I get back from the pub.

Fair enough, but if you put your arm around me and say 'you're family you are' I'll withdraw from the thread.