View Poll Results: Brexit - Eligible/Ineligible, In, Out or Undecided?

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155. You may not vote on this poll
  • Eligible to Vote - Will Vote 'IN' ('Remain')

    65 41.94%
  • Eligible to Vote - Will Vote 'OUT'

    53 34.19%
  • Eligible to Vote - Undecided

    29 18.71%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would Vote 'IN' ('Remain') If I could

    4 2.58%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would Vote 'OUT' if I could.

    4 2.58%
  • Ineligible to Vote - Would be undecided right now.

    0 0%
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Thread: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

  1. #513
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    UK problems put us at a disadvantage? Thats not really a given, since it's needs to be put into context to be honest. In the event of Brexit, the pound will fall in value and our export industry will certainly benefit for example.. even with tariffs applied at WTO levels.
    The disadvantage you alluded to, and i replied to, was your quote from the videos comments section that "we must have two layers of problems" my reply was equally ambiguous as i didn't refer to any problem specifically, just like the comment you quoted.

    Specifically that an EU "problem" how ever you want to define that applies to everyone in the EU, whereas a UK problem effect only the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    The difference with perceived 'poor' democracy in the UK and that of the EU is that the winning parties in the UK are still all British and must all still inhabit the same island and face the British people. In the EU laws and regulations etc. can be passed against the will of any one member nation, even to their detriment, and it still takes effect.
    And the wining parties (not that there's much wining in the EU as most decisions are arrived at by consensus) in the EU still have to inhabit the same EU and face the European people, in the UK laws and regulations can be passed against the will of any one constituency or region, even to their detriment, and it still takes effect, for example in 2007 when the government decided that there would be no Barnett consequentials in relation to the more than £7bn of public spending allocated to deliver the 2012 London Olympic Games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    Additionally, I still don't understand the whole, "Oh yeah Europe's bad, well it was already bad in the UK", line. If some thing is recognisably bad then why would you ever want more of it or a worse version of it? If one doesn't think one can change it, then why bother voting at all?
    Because it's not just as bad in the UK it's worse, arguably it's far worse, yet people want to give more power to a system in the UK that's worse than the one they're complaining about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    Which brings up, perhaps, the irony in all this. A vote to remain is a vote to have less of a say in future matters.
    No, it's really not, when %12.6 of the vote gets you 1 MP and %4.7 gets you 56 MPs has that given the %12.6 more say or less?
    The real irony will come if there's a vote to leave, it will be ironic if the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP) leads to the eventual breakup of the United Kingdom.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    And the wining parties (not that there's much wining in the EU as most decisions are arrived at by consensus) in the EU still have to inhabit the same EU and face the European people, in the UK laws and regulations can be passed against the will of any one constituency or region, even to their detriment, and it still takes effect, for example in 2007 when the government decided that there would be no Barnett consequentials in relation to the more than £7bn of public spending allocated to deliver the 2012 London Olympic Games.
    Dilution and unification. Dilution because the people in the UK can influence one other. The areas over which we are to vote are closer, more similar, more understandable, and closer to the people. What do UK voters, or even representatives, know about farmers in different regions throughout eastern or southern Europe and their opinions or preferences or what's best for them? Do you feel qualified to vote on that, or since you won't be able to, how confident do you feel that UK elected representatives or government officials will give them a fair shake or even understand the issues they're facing? The people closer to the situations will have a better more informed ability to vote and have a say. Unification because it puts forward a notion of Europe as a single entity with a single people (it's not - there's vast diversity within the Europe, in many and varied areas of life) and also some sort of general superiority of the majority of European leaders. I disagree that such a body can or would handle things better than encouraging each individual nation to be more and responsible for and reliant upon themselves, which local democracy requires, or that centralising power will not result in more waste, corruption and abuse of power. (And every argument against the national governments we've had and have only strengthens arguments against greater European government which is made up from those same governments and individuals, and additionally, arguably with less accountability).

    Because it's not just as bad in the UK it's worse, arguably it's far worse, yet people want to give more power to a system in the UK that's worse than the one they're complaining about.
    How is it worse? How can it be worse? If the EU is made up from elected officials in the UK and Europe?

    No, it's really not, when %12.6 of the vote gets you 1 MP and %4.7 gets you 56 MPs has that given the %12.6 more say or less?
    The real irony will come if there's a vote to leave, it will be ironic if the United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP) leads to the eventual breakup of the United Kingdom.
    It's not just about voting percentages. It's about the fact that certain areas of EU decisions are beyond veto and and beyond change. Whichever way you slice it, British citizens have less say over things that come out of the EU, and the people who produce and shape those things, and which can affect them, than they do within their own society.
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    The disadvantage you alluded to, and i replied to, was your quote from the videos comments section that "we must have two layers of problems" my reply was equally ambiguous as i didn't refer to any problem specifically, just like the comment you quoted.
    The video quote was just making the relevant point of why do we need two dysfunctional systems of government, when you can just have one that you may have a hope of changing. Reform of the UK Government would be more likely in future than the EU, if the UK population is unhappy with the status quo.

    The EU didn't change anything of significance even with the UK threatening to work out of the door. UK will be over a barrel, if it votes to remain with proposals going through that could be against our interests. Yes, we have a veto, but whether the PM will actually use it is another question. The way the EU works, the veto seems like a blunt ineffectual instrument that doesn't produce the results we may want.

    On Scotland leaving the UK in the event of Brexit, well it's their right to do so if they wish, but to win power and independence from London only to give it away to an even more remote power structure in Brussels is a completely self-defeating exercise. They would be forced to adopt the Euro by default, no matter what the SNP say.

    I could understand Scotland actually going the EFTA route as Norway has, with it's own free floating currency and central bank which can set appropriate interest rates. Ironically, Alec Salmond and Nicola Sturgeon kept comparing Scotland to Norway as an example of a small successful country, during the independence referendum, but Norway is in EFTA, not the EU!
    Last edited by The Hand; 20-06-2016 at 07:27 PM. Reason: typo

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    Dilution and unification. Dilution because the people in the UK can influence one other. The areas over which we are to vote are closer, more similar, more understandable, and closer to the people.
    And the people of Europe can influence one other, if you need an example of that just look at the way Nationalism has spread throughout the EU.
    The areas over which the EU votes effect us all (mostly/arguably), that's the whole point of the EU, share sovereignty where it matters, share laws, regulations and everything else that effects the community as a whole, just like the United Kingdom passes laws and regulations that effect everyone in the union.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    What do UK voters, or even representatives, know about farmers in different regions throughout eastern or southern Europe and their opinions or preferences or what's best for them? Do you feel qualified to vote on that, or since you won't be able to, how confident do you feel that UK elected representatives or government officials will give them a fair shake or even understand the issues they're facing? The people closer to the situations will have a better more informed ability to vote and have a say.
    Seriously? You're asking what UK voters know about farming when 40% of young adults don't know that milk comes from cows and 1-in-5 think fish fingers are the fingers of fish, besides that's why MPs consult experts on things, or do you think every MP has grown up on farms, studied law, and ever other subject they make decision about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    Unification because it puts forward a notion of Europe as a single entity with a single people (it's not - there's vast diversity within the Europe, in many and varied areas of life) and also some sort of general superiority of the majority of European leaders.
    And that's why sovereign nations give up *some* of their sovereignty, because you get more done working together than on your own, if it benefits you and the group as a whole to work together then that's what you do, when it doesn't you retain your sovereignty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    I disagree that such a body can or would handle things better than encouraging each individual nation to be more and responsible for and reliant upon themselves, which local democracy requires, or that centralising power will not result in more waste, corruption and abuse of power.
    Disagree as much as you like but that's not going to change the fact that certain things can't be dealt with on a national level, things like climate change, fishing, agriculture, human rights, immigration, and all those other things that cross borders like regulations that you need to adhere to if you want to sell something to another country, the same regulations that are shared among 28 other nations, the same nations that would have 28 differing regulations that companies would have to adhere if they wanted to sell to them separately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    How is it worse? How can it be worse? If the EU is made up from elected officials in the UK and Europe?
    Well for starters the UK executive body has 10x more staff the the EU equivalent, the UK has an unelected House of Lords, it has an unelected head of state, it's unrepresentative, and it only has what amounts to a two party system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galant View Post
    It's not just about voting percentages. It's about the fact that certain areas of EU decisions are beyond veto and and beyond change. Whichever way you slice it, British citizens have less say over things that come out of the EU, and the people who produce and shape those things, and which can affect them, than they do within their own society.
    Of course it's about voting percentages, if your political system isn't representative peoples votes don't matter and their voice isn't heard.

    As for the claim that EU decisions are beyond veto and and beyond change how is that any different than the UK, can the Scotland veto a decisions made in the UK parliament, can Wales, can anyone?

    Re: Beyond change, that's demonstrably false, there's so many examples that the EU changes regulations, laws, rules, and everything else constantly, if that wasn't so how do you explain how they returned the decision on fishing quotes to nation states, how do you explain the CAP rebate, how do you explain the changes they made to the way the president of the commission is elected in 2014?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    The video quote was just making the relevant point of why do we need two dysfunctional systems of government, when you can just have one that you may have a hope of changing. Reform of the UK Government would be more likely in future than the EU, if the UK population is unhappy with the status quo.
    And yet one system is far more dysfunctional than the other, what people wanting to leave the EU want to do is hand more power to the most dysfunctional system out of the two, you're basically saying we have two broken system but lets hand more power to the one that's the most broken.

    As for reforming the UK Government i hate to tell you you're living in dreamland, how long have we had a two party system? How long have we had first past the post? how long have we had a House or lords, a head of state, an unelected executive body?
    Last edited by Corky34; 20-06-2016 at 07:29 PM.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    And yet one system is far more dysfunctional than the other, what people wanting to leave the EU want to do is hand more power to the most dysfunctional system out of the two, you're basically saying we have two broken system but lets hand more power to the one that's the most broken.

    As for reforming the UK Government i hate to tell you you're living in dreamland, how long have we had a two party system? How long have we had first past the post? how long have we had a House or lords, a head of state, an unelected executive body?
    Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying, I'm not implying Brexit is going to be the perfect solution. With the immense problems that the eu has, it's a bit hypocritical to accuse me of living in a dreamworld.

    Cameron derailed the Alternative vote referendum with the same Project Fear approach as he is doing now with this EU referendum. I voted for AV and I would certainly back proportional representation, an elected Lords/second chamber etc. You seem to be consistently implying the UK is incapable of positive change by itself and too optimistic about the prospects of reform in the EU?


    The 2015 Tory election victory could be the last of it's kind with more smaller parties arriving on the scene by the year, which over time means more coalitions and compromises which will probably result in more voting reform referendums. It might take a referendum or two to reform the UK system but if thats what it takes then so be it.
    Last edited by The Hand; 20-06-2016 at 09:43 PM.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    Please don't misrepresent what I'm saying, I'm not implying Brexit is going to be the perfect solution. With the immense problems that the eu has, it's a bit hypocritical to accuse me of living in a dreamworld.
    Apologises if you feel I've misrepresented you but it seems, going back to your original quote taken from the comments section of the video i post that you agreed with what you quoted, that "The UK has problems too? That's me convinced, we must have two layers of problems"

    My response to that may have been a little harsh but if you can't see that the problems within the UK political system are far worse than any within the EU then it truly does seem like you're living in a dreamworld. We (the UK) have an executive body that's 10x the size of the EU's yet the EU is responsible for an economy with a GDP of $16 trillion verses the UK's GDP of $3 trillion, the UK executive body is responsible for 64 million people verses the EU executive body being responsible for 500 million people.

    No one within the UK's executive body is elected, i doubt anyone can even name the head of the UK's executive body, whereas the head of the EU's executive body is selected by the group who has the most democratically elected members, the heads of departments within the EU's executive body are proposed by the elected heads of each member state, and that happens every 5 years, the head of the UK's executive body has held his position for the last 4 years and the one before him was in charge for 7 years.

    And in case it passed anyone by the executive body are the people who make the laws, regulations, and rules, their the people that have studied law, the people that have the skills needed to package everything into a concise and easy to understand format so elected officials can understand what it's all about and make a decision, their the backroom people that MPs & MEPs depend upon to do all the things they don't have either the time or the skills to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    Cameron derailed the Alternative vote referendum with the same Project Fear approach as he is doing now with this EU referendum. I voted for AV and I would certainly back proportional representation, an elected Lords/second chamber etc. You seem to be consistently implying the UK is incapable of positive change by itself and too optimistic about the prospects of reform in the EU?
    Yes he did, much to the detriment of UK politics IMO.

    I'm not implying that the UK is incapable of positive change, I'm saying it outright, you yourself just highlighted how the AV referendum didn't lead to change but there's also the fact that we have the unelected, hereditary House of Lords, a hereditary unelected head of state, an electoral district (constituency) voting system that seems to have the constituency lines redrawn on a whim, and totally unproportional representation (12% vote = 1 MP, 5% = 56).

    And despite all this we still hear people say how the EU is undemocratic and unelected officials are making our laws, I'm not saying the EU is perfect as like any large organisation things aren't always perfect, but it's a darn site more perfect than the system some people want to hand power back to.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Hand View Post
    The 2015 Tory election victory could be the last of it's kind with more smaller parties arriving on the scene by the year, which over time means more coalitions and compromises which will probably result in more voting reform referendums. It might take a referendum or two to reform the UK system but if thats what it takes then so be it.
    Could's and maybe's aren't much to go on though are they, sure we could see more smaller parties arriving on the scene but the system is geared towards not allowing that and TPTB are in no hurry to change things, as you highlighted with the AV referendum.

    People sometimes ask if you could join the EU today would you, to that i say emphatically yes, not only would i join but if i could I'd replace the whole UK political system with the EU system.
    Last edited by Corky34; 21-06-2016 at 09:18 AM. Reason: Corrected term of EU president

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    As the poll is pretty static, I wonder if it looks a bit different now people have discussed stuff, or made up their minds.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    http://www.cityam.com/243706/brexit-...medium=twitter

    Short piece. A few excerpts:

    "A vote to leave is no more an endorsement of Farage’s agenda than a vote to remain is an endorsement of David Cameron’s or, for that matter, Jeremy Corbyn’s. Even Vote Leave is not an opposition government. Its representatives can outline visions of what they want a post-Brexit Britain to look like, but they have to be elected to implement it.

    This referendum question is not about policies. The ballot question is simply whether or not we should be a member of the political union that is the EU. That question is bigger than current events, general elections or current politicians and their views. To quote US economist Thomas Sowell, it is the most basic question of politics: not about what is best policy, but who shall decide what is best."

    "This referendum is about the future, not the past. Looking forward, the EU’s driving ideology of centralisation and harmonisation is simply unfit for global realities. A free-trading nation is hit hard by EU protectionism and its inability to manage 28 member states’ competing interests to expand free trade to fast growing areas. In fact, we have also given up our independent seats on global institutions alongside this loss of power, diluting our global influence.

    Most problems are either global or highly local. The EU is simply an uneasy, cumbersome, largely unaccountable middle level of government, inflexible to changing circumstances and obsessed with harmonising further in response to every crisis. The result has been mass unemployment in southern Europe while the EU debates the strength of vacuum cleaners.

    Of course, it would be churlish to ignore that there would be some uncertainty after a leave vote. But our economy is robust enough to deal with it. The Treasury, IMF and others assume Brexit would be bad for Britain in the longer term because they assume we’d make bad political decisions if we left – not changing any regulations and imposing barriers to trade. I truly believe we’d do the opposite."

    "Unlike the Remainers, I do not believe granting more democratic control to the British people will lead us to become more intolerant and unkind, inward-looking, small-minded, and in favour of protectionist politics. Of course there’s a risk with democracy that people will be elected to do things we, as individuals, do not like. But we have the power to change it. Remainers ignore that unaccountable power can entrench things we do not like (such as the indefensible Common Agricultural Policy) for much longer.

    In fact, Brexit is an opportunity for a genuinely exciting globalist future, embracing real free trade, innovation, and accountable power. Much would stay the same initially – Brexit is no utopia and we are entrenched in the EU after 43 years as a member. But voting Leave begins a long-term opportunity for our self-correcting democratic process to chart its own course, responding to events and opportunities. A chance to forge new ties, advocate for economic and democratic freedom, fight protectionism and return legitimacy to government. A chance we should take."
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    I don't understand why people give the un-elected House of Lords a hard time. It is a safety net, a group of people to question bad ideas getting passed as legislation, and that only works if the people involved have no blowback from saying "no", which being a lifetime peer gets them.

    When there is a chance that you find yourself with a PM who has the clarity of judgement that made him think it would be funny to do strange things to a dead pig, and yet amazingly the opposition leader seems even worse, having *some* sort of reality check built in seems a pretty good idea to me.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I don't understand why people give the un-elected House of Lords a hard time. It is a safety net, a group of people to question bad ideas getting passed as legislation, and that only works if the people involved have no blowback from saying "no", which being a lifetime peer gets them.
    I'm only guessing as like you i see the House of Lords as an important safety net, having said that i think we we only need that safety net because of the way the House of Commons and our political system works, if we had true proportional representation and not the rather undemocratic electoral district (constituency) system there'd be less chance that the government of the day could force through bad legislation.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    I liked this video on Brexit. I'm not sure I'm decided yet, but 80 20 leave considering what Switzerland has managed.
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millennium View Post
    I liked this video on Brexit. I'm not sure I'm decided yet, but 80 20 leave considering what Switzerland has managed.
    Only issue Switzerland is incredibly expensive to live in and has a population nearly half the size of London. Plus maybe you might want to watch this too:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAgKHSNqxa8

    Jokiness aside,you might want to fast forward to the part where he talks about Brexit:The Movie(which you linked to),when they actually bothered to look at some of the stuff they claimed. They basically used keywords to look for EU regulations without actually checking them,so inflated the figures on purpose massively.

    Edit!!

    Added the part you need to watch about a mundane thing like pillows that film talks about:

    https://youtu.be/iAgKHSNqxa8?t=254
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 21-06-2016 at 03:32 PM.

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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Watched the video you linked, can't say I'm that swayed
    hexus trust : n(baby):n(lover):n(sky)|>P(Name)>>nopes

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  15. #526
    Moosing about! CAT-THE-FIFTH's Avatar
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    Quote Originally Posted by Millennium View Post
    Watched the video you linked, can't say I'm that swayed
    Which is funny since you are linking to a video which posts lots of nonsense about EU regulations and when they are checked they linked things like an inflatable pillow pump,companies which happened to have "pillows" in their documents,etc to overinflate the numbers to make it look like pillows had a 100+ regulations and it is disgenuous on your part to just try and push it.

    That shows you actually have not watched that video I linked to.

    People are very happy to call out any figures from the remain camp as overinflated scaremongering,but the leave camp are doing even worse by making up figures regarding such mundane things as pillows.

    What do you expect from something called "Brexit:The Movie"??
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 21-06-2016 at 04:09 PM.

  16. #527
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    I did watch it! Peace out thread ...
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  17. #528
    LUSE Galant's Avatar
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    Re: Unofficial Hexus Brexit Straw Poll - In, Out, Undecided?

    No trees were harmed in the creation of this message. However, many electrons were displaced and terribly inconvenienced.

  18. Received thanks from:

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