Almost There! Hexus EU Referendum Straw Poll #2

[TooNice]

At this point, I am wondering whether we are better off just getting this over with and reap what we sow, or see if this will eventually get swiped under the carpet. Getting stuck in a limbo, only to exit much later is possibly worse in my opinion. And perhaps the various politicians in EU countries are playing hard ball, but the comments seem to indicate that their patience has ran out and they are more ready for Article 50, than than our politicians are ready to invoke Article 50.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

At this point, I am wondering whether we are better off just getting this over with and reap what we sow, or see if this will eventually get swiped under the carpet. Getting stuck in a limbo, only to exit much later is possibly worse in my opinion. And perhaps the various politicians in EU countries are playing hard ball, but the comments seem to indicate that their patience has ran out and they are more ready for Article 50, than than our politicians are ready to invoke Article 50.

I can see what will happen(unless our lot say screw it and let the plebs eat cake),they will probably try and go for a more Norway type arrangement,and then make it harder for non-EU migrants to enter the country. That way they can spin it as taking back more control(since I suspect some laws won't be affected by the EU) and cutting down migration.

[TooNice]

Yeah, I think that is what they (some of our politicians) would like to do. From what I've read so far though, EU do not intend to budge on free movement if we want to retain the single market Norway-style. Understandably given the precedent it would set. So the question is, which side is going to blink first..

[The Hand]

Some more recent interesting info from the Guardian on whether Brexit/Article 50 will be triggered:

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-david-cameron

John Kerry: Brexit could be 'walked back'

Looks like the UK/EU referendum came up with the wrong result lol according to John, the US etc.

[realstock]

EU do not intend to budge on free movement if we want to retain the single market Norway-style.

This is crucial, imo. We ideally need access to the free trade agreements, but there has been various politicians stating this cannot be offered without the free movement of people, etc

If there is a second referendum, surely it would be to ask the people if they want the deal on the table. When the issue of immigration looks to be straw that broke the camels back, the EU will either need to reform to allow restrictions on immigration in order to allow access to the free market, or risk another referendum that could send more shock waves through Europe.

Italy's banks are feeling the affects!

[peterb]

At this point, I am wondering whether we are better off just getting this over with and reap what we sow, or see if this will eventually get swiped under the carpet. Getting stuck in a limbo, only to exit much later is possibly worse in my opinion. And perhaps the various politicians in EU countries are playing hard ball, but the comments seem to indicate that their patience has ran out and they are more ready for Article 50, than than our politicians are ready to invoke Article 50.

But it is up to the UK to invoke article 50 at a moment of our choosing.

And the stance of Junkers is outrageous and typifies the arrogance of the EU beurocracy. He strutting around trying to tell the UK what it should do and when, yet I don't recall having had a vote to elect him as president of the European Commissioners, so just under what authority does he have to make those pronouncements?

And that is a fundamental demonstration of the lack of control over the EU plutocrats who make those statements without any direct accountability.

Of course, the commissioners are scared that the UK has exposed the emporers new clothes, and the the 'European Project', enacted by the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties (which was accepted without reference to the people of the U.K.) for closer political union and a European superstate, will fall apart.

[Corky34]

He strutting around trying to tell the UK what it should do and when, yet I don't recall having had a vote to elect him as president of the European Commissioners, so just under what authority does he have to make those pronouncements?

Not defending how he's going about things but we (everyone in the EU) elected him, well sort of, the party with the most MPs gets to choose who they consider best for the job and then parliament votes on their proposition via qualified majority vote, in effect we (everyone in the EU) voted more of his parties MPs into power so they got to chose who would head up the equivalent of our civil service.

Personally i think that's a better method than ours (appointing whoever the PM chooses), what i don't agree with is how vocal the president of the commission is, yes their meant to champion the "values" of the EU and do the administrative work but that shouldn't involve telling people/nations what to do.

[Zak33]

just remember.....

Junkers made bombers

[TooNice]

But it is up to the UK to invoke article 50 at a moment of our choosing.

Indeed, but my point is that, going by the hardball stance they've taken, they are making it look like Article 50 is inevitable, and already bracing for the impact (which I note is also a threat to our own union, in reference Scotland and NI). So it doesn't look like they are planning to let us use it as some bargaining chip or trump card as The Hand suggested.

UK: If you won't give us what we want, we'll invoke Article 50!
EU: We are already expecting and waiting for you to invoke Article 50.
UK: Oh..

Or perhaps it is a bluff and they are just pretending not to be terrified, and we somehow hold all the aces now. But I just see this as mutually damaging and with the state of our leadership, I am not convinced we are in a better position. It might be a different story if we were not so reliant on exporting services, but we are.

[wazzickle]

But it is up to the UK to invoke article 50 at a moment of our choosing.

And the stance of Junkers is outrageous and typifies the arrogance of the EU beurocracy. He strutting around trying to tell the UK what it should do and when, yet I don't recall having had a vote to elect him as president of the European Commissioners, so just under what authority does he have to make those pronouncements?

And that is a fundamental demonstration of the lack of control over the EU plutocrats who make those statements without any direct accountability.

Of course, the commissioners are scared that the UK has exposed the emporers new clothes, and the the 'European Project', enacted by the Lisbon and Maastricht treaties (which was accepted without reference to the people of the U.K.) for closer political union and a European superstate, will fall apart.

Dude, this is just miles off.... It's a negotiation. He's not telling the UK what to do, he's saying 'if you want this, you have to do this'.

Is 'plutocrat' just another way of saying elite for you?

It seems like it's the other way round. Put yourself in the shoes of 'europe'. The UK is now attempting to dictate terms. The UK wants the benefits (access to trade) without the responsibilities (free movement). Why should europe give that up?

[The Hand]

"Brexit Fallout: Why Europe May Be Biggest Loser"
Kirk West - Principal Global Investors

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos...-biggest-loser

He doesn't go into too much depth unfortunately, but he implies the EU could be headed for trouble too.

Edit:

Also an interesting video here:

"Brexit: Why It Might Not Happen"

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos...ght-not-happen

[Corky34]

Looks like Boris doesn't want to take up the poison chalice that leading the UK has now become.

[Galant]

Shocked at the state of British democracy in all the calls for finding a way out, calling for a second referendum etc. Not sure whether ignorance, arrogance, or just the rejection of democracy at an underlying level. The idea that it shouldn't go forward because voters didn't understand is mind-blowing. How does anyone know what anyone, let alone the vast majority or even the whole, knew or why they voted? It's a private vote for a reason. And even if the mass media is 100% percent correct that there are many on the leave side of mis-understood, that neither nullifies the democratic reality of responsibility, power truly lying with the people, nor does it address the question of whether anyone on the remain side knew what they were doing either, or for 'good enough' reasons. Dress it up as they like in talk of legality etc. the bottom line is that a lot of people are unhappy with the result of the vote and so want to dismiss it and get their preference instead.

The misinformation continues.

The democratic question - which was the original question decades ago and continues to be the central question - still remains either ignored or unanswered, particularly in the face of:

Breitbart: Paper released to advocate and push forward to greater EU union in all areas - military etc.

Questions arise in the Visegrad group about a supposedly leaked paper on an EU super state lead by France and Germany. (Ukraine Today)

And then the day after Hollande gives a speech about France and Germany needing to take the lead in the EU. (Ukraine Today)

For some people the intertwining of the economic question with other political and even sociological/philosophical questions is significant enough to want to make a sacrifice economically to avoid paying the price politically. And that sets aside the potential questions of long term economic benefits (largely because so much is unknown).

[The Hand]

Looks like Boris doesn't want to take up the poison chalice that leading the UK has now become.

Yes, I think he's just biding his time.. let some one else take the heat in the near term. He'll probably pop back up again at some point once the hard work is done.

The Turks have taken a leaf out of Sturgeon's book and have sent a delegation to Brussels to sell the virtues of Turkish membership.. not that I expect them to get far, if the EU stick to their previous pledges.

[Galant]

Radio 4 Discussion following the vote - Hosted by Steve Richards with Daniel Hannan (Conservative MEP), Carol Flint (Labour MP), & two presenters of the program Helen Lewis (New Statesman), Peter Oval (Daily Mail).

[The Hand]

Shocked at the state of British democracy in all the calls for finding a way out, calling for a second referendum etc. Not sure whether ignorance, arrogance, or just the rejection of democracy at an underlying level. The idea that it shouldn't go forward because voters didn't understand is mind-blowing. How does anyone know what anyone, let alone the vast majority or even the whole, knew or why they voted? It's a private vote for a reason. And even if the mass media is 100% percent correct that there are many on the leave side of mis-understood, that neither nullifies the democratic reality of responsibility, power truly lying with the people, nor does it address the question of whether anyone on the remain side knew what they were doing either, or for 'good enough' reasons. Dress it up as they like in talk of legality etc. the bottom line is that a lot of people are unhappy with the result of the vote and so want to dismiss it and get their preference instead.

The misinformation continues.

...and it hasn't even been a week yet. Give it six months!