Brexit New Deal/Legal Changes - Risk Still Remains

[Disturbedguy]

Clearly you lot think I am making things up. So, I am going to start posting photographic proofs of how the standard of our society has been f'ed up. Watch this space.

Are you going to post the same for "proof" for every other race / skin colour etc or are you only going to selectively show what supports your argument.

There is bad in any race / religion / group of people / ethnic group, however you want to phrase it, to blindly label everyone from any part of the country, in the way you have, is ignorant and rude and as others have said, xenophobic.

And, when pulled up on it, you play the victim card? Give us a break.

[Ttaskmaster]

Clearly you lot think I am making things up. So, I am going to start posting photographic proofs of how the standard of our society has been f'ed up. Watch this space.

I assume you'll also be posting photographic proof that all these Eastern European immigrants are directly responsible for the decline in native British people too? All those benefit scroungers, all the Chavs and Townie scum, all the binge drinkers and 'Brits On Holiday' types, yes?

talking about them as if they are beneath him is something that rubs me in the same way as someone who -is- racist or xenophobic for much the same reason.

Let's talk about those Thai massage parlours instead, then... they'll rub you in a very different way!!

[Disturbedguy]

do you want more East European gangs?
more of their prostitutes and brothels in your neighbourhood?
more gun crimes ?
more drugs?
more beggars?
more pick-pockets and burglars?

Show proof that all of the above has gotten worse due to "East European" gangs - last I checked, how a person acts has little to do with their background, do you get this equally up in arms when someone born in this country does the same?

more money in benefits going to them ?

- News flash, it isn't just Eastern Europeans getting benefits.

more delays in seeing your GP ? ( takes me a month to get an appointment these days vs next day like before )

Have you ever considered that this could simply be because GP's are busy, communities grow, regardless of where someone is from. It also doesn't help the fact that people get a bit of sniffle and run to their GP

more racism ? ( East Europeans are absolutely racist. They stare at non-whites in trains and "accidentally" push or step on them )

- News flash, people of other Ethnic backgrounds do the same

more reckless driving ?

- Again, this isn't something unique to Eastern Europeans, unless of course you are actively ignoring every other reckless driver, that isn't Eastern European.

more overcrowding on trains?

Again, prove this has been caused by immigrants in general? Surely you should be mentioning congestion charges as one reason why more people take trains, or the fact more people are pushed to use alternate forms of transport?

more buildings popping up ?

Again, prove this is due to immigration?


I should add here, the reason I've replied here more than other places is that because my nan was a Greek Cypriot immigrant, setup her own business, worked her back side of, paid her way and still had to put up with abuse from small minded fools. So, yes, I feel somewhat strongly about it. Especially when such dross is spouted.

[TeePee]

But then again, did it really sound like OilSheikh was really after some "good debate"? I haven't been active on Hexus for a while and actually forgot why I had him on my ignore list. Seeing a quote of his post in post 85 (then looking at a few more posts in this thread to make sure that I am not missing any context) reminds me of why. Fine, I do not think it is "racist", but possibly xenophobic, and certainly lacking substance for debate.

Sure there are negative to go with the positive to immigration, and Saracen has many times made some fine reasoned arguments against freedom of movement. OilSheikh's make it seem like Eastern Europeans are the cause of all the trouble in the UK, and if you can't see what he sees (because what he is obviously right) you must be blind (insulting to our intelligence, which going by your words, hardly a good way to debate), and don't even bother providing evidence to the contrary because the only truth is his own

I'd be more interested debating with a wall.

Even IF he is not racist nor xenophobic there is still something in common (especially the later) in that he is basically hating on, and vilifying a pretty large group of people (Eastern European), associating a large population with all kind of evil, talking about them as if they are beneath him is something that rubs me in the same way as someone who -is- racist or xenophobic for much the same reason.

He makes a terrible argument, based only upon his subjective experiences, which has now been completely dismantled with reason and logical argument. That's how it should be. Screaming 'Racist!' is a worse response than the initial opinion, and I'm pleased we've moved beyond that.

[badass]

He makes a terrible argument, based only upon his subjective experiences, which has now been completely dismantled with reason and logical argument. That's how it should be. Screaming 'Racist!' is a worse response than the initial opinion, and I'm pleased we've moved beyond that.

No. Engaging in debate with such a ridiculous post can be seen to provide validity to that statement. It is no different to engaging in a debate with someone who is insistent that the sky is green 24/7. By debating with them you are potentially acknowledging that their point of view is a has some validity one although you believe it wrong.

[Spud1]

That's how it should be. Screaming 'Racist!' is a worse response than the initial opinion

No one screamed "racist" or even called him a "racist". I certainly didn't....I said his post came accross as/sounded racist...because it did. Saying that eastern europeans are casuing all those bad things he listed out is exactly that. Maybe it's a subtle point but its a critically important one.

[Ttaskmaster]

In more Brexit news: France’s EU minister names her cat ‘Brexit’ because "he meows loudly to be let out but won’t go through the door"!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8828026.html

[TeePee]

No. Engaging in debate with such a ridiculous post can be seen to provide validity to that statement. It is no different to engaging in a debate with someone who is insistent that the sky is green 24/7. By debating with them you are potentially acknowledging that their point of view is a has some validity one although you believe it wrong.

Discussing an idea does not validate an idea. It is the only way to defeat an idea.

[badass]

Discussing an idea does not validate an idea. It is the only way to defeat an idea.

And here we get into a debate which has been going on in academia for a long time. I will choose to bow out - let's agree to disagree.

[Ttaskmaster]

And here we get into a debate which has been going on in academia for a long time. I will choose to bow out - let's agree to disagree.

Y'all have probably made several logical fallacies in your flawed assertions anyway, so it's all moot... at least until the next development in this saga. Currently waiting for the EU to decide whether or not TM can delay Brexit...

[ik9000]

<logs in, rejoins thread, gets the vibe, creeps out again>

[Saracen999]

I cannot give any validity to the actual statements he's making. Couldn't tell you if they were accurate or not. But what Race do you allege he's discriminating against? I see claims about 'Eastern Europeans', which may well be 'cultural discrimination', but that's not the same as racism.

Umm, well, it might be worth bearing in mind the UN definition of racial discrimination ....

The term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

or, for that matter, the definition under UK law where a "racial group" is ....

...
any group of people who are defined by reference to their race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origin".

Racial discrimination is, in law, defined in rather broader terms than a simple definition of "race" might imply.


The bold emphasis is mine.

[TeePee]

Umm, well, it might be worth bearing in mind the UN definition of racial discrimination ....

or, for that matter, the definition under UK law where a "racial group" is ....


Racial discrimination is, in law, defined in rather broader terms than a simple definition of "race" might imply.


The bold emphasis is mine.

Does the UN define 'Racial Prejudice'? Because, while the comments appear to reflect significant prejudice, the poster does not appear to be in a position to discriminate. When it comes to laws protecting employment, the statutes must necessarily be broad. That doesn't mean we are racist because we joke about the French.

[Zak33]

i'm gonna leave this to run.

so long as it stays non personal, it goes on...........

OilSheik is getting a bit of a reprimand from the majority, so as a clever bloke I am utterly convinced he will see what has offeded people and learn from it.

[Galant]

Veering away from racism... anyone want to have a go at predicting how Brexit is going to play out in the immediate?

Apparently May is seeking a short term extension to Art. 50 but reports have been mixed out of Europe suggesting that unless she has some clear idea of purpose for the extension, then they'll not grant it. I suppose the theory is that the EU want us to stay so they'll ultimately extend however needed to achieve that. But is that guaranteed? Might they instead prefer to teach us a lesson and hope we come begging to be let back in? Or do they just not care whether we're in or out? Essentially, from the EU's perspective, do they want to keep is in more than see us leave, and if so will an extension be the best way to get there?

[Zak33]

Internally they will be as tied up in knots as we are.

We have factions in every party pulling in every direction. Leave hard...leave slow.. stay if possible...endless combos

I have every belief that if WE, as one country have that much going on, then the other myriad statespeople of the myriad countries also have the same situation.

If we were a little country, we'd be dumped... waved off with a kiss, a cheese sandwich for the journey and the door would be locked.
But we pay a lot in and take less out. They dunno how to balance the books without us. And they know we need the deals to roll over or we will suffer a 2 or 3 year shock to the systems.

I was a staunch remainer.

Now I just want it done, and if we have to bleed some... lets get the cut done and bandaged up fast.

Europe now detests us. They don't know what we want because we cant decide and they detest their own weakness at not forcing it either. We are hated and it's clear.
Lets just do one.....

as I have compared it in the past to being caught on the windows sill of a girls room... no shirt and one shoe missing.. lets drop to the road, pull our pants on and walk home.