Devil and the Deep Blue (Tory party) Sea

[Galant]

Some shocking stuff in there, on the flip side, how many of those that have voted for Brexit been accused of being racists, looks like its rampant on both sides of the coin...

Wait... so you're taking real, documented examples of racism within a political party's own ranks - a party up for election and possible governance of the nation - and equating that with anecdotal accusations of racism among leave voters?

[Ttaskmaster]

So, in short we have to tax more across the board, not just the rich but at a level that is "fair", close off the loopholes that the top earners are using to hide money etc and keep cuts at the levels they are, and certainly look at improving efficiency to pay off what we owe and get out from the bond circle.

Yes, something like that, as I understand it... at least until Labour get in and start spending money they don't have, again, or as The Opposition simply put the kybosh on Tory plans to recover from the debt issues.

[[GSV]Trig]

Wait... so you're taking real, documented examples of racism within a political party's own ranks - a party up for election and possible governance of the nation - and equating that with anecdotal accusations of racism among leave voters?

Nope, just flippantly stating that racism and other sorts of ism's are a lot more rife than they should be in modern society.

[spacein_vader]

Nope, just flippantly stating that racism and other sorts of ism's are a lot more rife than they should be in modern society.

Tourism?

[TooNice]

Wait... so you're taking real, documented examples of racism within a political party's own ranks

Hopefully that includes Islamophobia within the Conservative party.

[Galant]

Frankly, I'm shocked at the attitudes here. Politics might be a right mess but responding to horrible views and actions such as those listed by implying something balances it out is at best bad taste.

If there's anti-Islamic speech, actions, and abuses within the Tories such as that anti-Semitism described in the complaints then I hope that comes out and is dealt with. I haven't heard of anything along those lines and I'd be surprised if it didn't come out during an election period.

Regardless, this stuff is beyond unacceptable. It's reprehensible.

What state are we in...?

[TooNice]

Frankly, I'm shocked at the attitudes here. Politics might be a right mess but responding to horrible views and actions such as those listed by implying something balances it out is at best bad taste.

Never said anything about balancing out. What I will say however is that your posts are so heavily weighted against Labour, merely glossing over highly questionable acts within Conservative party. That comes across as terribly biased. Not unlike the many questionably one-sided anti-Tory posts I see in The Guardian. I was shocked at first but I've seen enough I am not.

What I will say is that your post are likely preaching / appealing to the converted. Perhaps that is the intent. I may not be undecided this time, but I have been at various times during other GE (as I am not loyal to any party), and it is the posts to analyse and weigh the issues between the two main parties that ultimately had more impact on me.

[Saracen999]

So, in short we have to tax more across the board, not just the rich but at a level that is "fair", close off the loopholes that the top earners are using to hide money etc and keep cuts at the levels they are, and certainly look at improving efficiency to pay off what we owe and get out from the bond circle..
Also, we have to look at WHAT we are spending on, Nuclear deterrent is a good topic, 2%GDP into NATO, does that cover us enough for us not having nukes?
Foreign aid, as above, I've not seen a list of who we are giving money too, how much or why, but if we are giving (or whatever the term is) money to countries that have corruption or humanitarian issues, their own nuclear or space programs, do they really need money from us?

That widens it out quite a bit, and I'm sure it won't come as much of a shock to say it's massively more complex than that but, yes, a good start would be a sidespread societal recognition that, just like cars and fancy computers, if you want something like a better NHS or more effective welfare, you have to pay for it. In the case of governmental services, that means either, as a country, we have to work more, or harder, to increase national income, or we have to accept that taxes will have to go up and it certainly cannot all fall on someone else.

But there's an old pllitical saying ....

Politicians generally know what needs to be done. They just don't know how to get re-elected after they've done it.

You could argue that we the public, get the politicians we deserve, ot least because so many are standing there like a 3-year-old in a candy shop, with our hands out wanting goodies, but having no concept of having to pay for it.

For a classic example, the current bidding war among partues to bribe viters with freebies.

Nothing is free, and all this flies in the face of another fancy-sounding economic term - opportunity cost. Even the average 5-year-old gets that .... give a kid £5 and tell them togo buy sometjing in a sweet shop. They rapidly work out that if they spend it all on sherbet fizzes, they can't buy any chocolate. They opportunity cost of £100bn on HS2 could be expressed in number of hospitals not built, or x thousand po,ice officers or nurses for y years. So we need to work out what to spend on .... including as an option, paying down some of that stack of bond debt, so our kids are stiffed with it.

Of course, there are numerous other issues too. One of which, and a critical one in my view, is low productivity. The probkem is that while any sane economist and almist all poiticians of all parties a knowledge the problem, they fight like cats in a sack about how to do something about it.

Part of the problem is political-speak. Ever hear a politician talk about "spending" on something? They nearly always talk about "investing" as if they don't know the difference .... ir think we don't.

Gordon Brown was one if the worst (IMHO) for this. I suspect if he wanted a working lunch he'd sent an assistant "to invest in a cheese sandwich and can of Coke".

[Galant]

I said you implied it - by presenting a counter rather than addressing the issue. I suppose you could simply have been indicating it didn't matter...

I've made no attempt to hide the fact that I disagree substantially with Labour politics, especially right now. However, I'm no died in the wool Tory supporter either. In another thread I shared a few posts about a Labour MP out of Bolton whose stance on Brexit I admired and who might have tempted me to vote for her on a local basis due to her apparent character.

The reason my posts may have been skewed against Labour here is because of issues that, at least to me, appear to be significantly worse than anything the Tories are putting out and self evidently so.

The anti-Semitic issue hasn't gone away, it appears to have gotten louder and I don't think it should have to be stated that racism of any kind like that which is being reported in the Labour party is a serious issue. At the very least it calls into question Corbyn's ability to lead his own party if not his own values and the party's values. I don't see how that isn't a major factor worthy of serious consideration, particularly for the party that is traditionally, supposedly, anti-racism.

The financial/budgetary questions are another huge factor. The numbers they're suggesting are astronomical. I think it's important people try to have a grasp of the scale of the spending they're proposing. It dwarfs the Tory proposals that would themselves leave us in greater debt.

And then of course there's the Brexit issue which is still as relevant as ever, and it's now only the Tories that are going to fulfil that long term promise and honour the vote. Which, at least to me, is important for the next government to do.

[[GSV]Trig]

We've had a decade of cuts across the board, and as Saracen said, once a politician has done what is needed, being re-elected is an issue..
To reverse those cuts and improve things it's going to take a lot of money, taxes will go up regardless, the issues with the Torys are they're the ones that have made those cuts, and now they're saying vote for us, we're going to make things better, where in many cases the things they are saying they are going to do aren't even going to cover the cuts they made in the first place, things aren't going to be good, they are just going to be less worse..

Perhaps if people could see the benefits of the cuts and everything else that has happened in the last decade, then maybe they wouldn't have such a hard time thinking about voting for them, but its just a poopshoot..

Friend of mine posted this, pretty sure its not 100% fact checked but feel free to look it over.

“I don't like Corbyn. Give me one good reason why I should vote for Labour!”
2010-2019, in case you missed it...
1,000 sure start centres closed.
780 libraries closed.
700 football pitches closed.
Food bank use up 2,400%.
Homelessness up 1,000%.
Rough sleeping up 1,200%
Bedroom tax caused mass evictions.
Evictions are running at record highs.
35% of U.K. kids live in poverty.
Student fees up 300%.
Student debt has risen 150%.
Eradication of EMA (education maintenance allowance).
National debt has risen from £850billion to £2.25trillion.
Emergency Brexit stimulus from BoE in June 2016 of £175b.
Brexit related fall in national revenue £500b.
GDP fallen to -0.1%.
GBP fallen by circa 15% versus EUR and USD.
Manufacturing in recession.
Construction in recession.
Services close to recession.
25-30% cuts to all govt departments.
25-30% cuts to all councils, mainly centred on Labour councils.
Half of councils facing effective bankruptcy.
185k extra deaths attached to the political ideology of austerity.
25,000 less police.
20,000 less prison officers.
10,000 less border officials.
10,000 less firefighters.
10,000 less medical professionals.
25,000 less bed spaces for mental illness.
OECD calculate 3 million hidden unemployed, rate is really 13%.
Creation of 1.3m jobs, mainly temporary, self employed, gig economy and ZHC.
Only 30k full time work positions created.
Close on 50% of workers are self employed, ZHC, or part time precariat.
80% of the 5.3 million self employed live below the poverty line.
35% of self employed only earn £100 a month.
25% cuts for our disabled community.
80% cuts to Mobility allowance.
Closing Remploy.
40% of working households have practically no savings.
70% of households have less than 10k savings.
60% of households can only survive 2 months without a wage.
Household debt reaches new peak, despite emergency base rates.
Increase of 50% in hate crimes.
Increase of knife crime by 150% to 22,000 per year.
Increase in teenage suicide by 70%.
Suicide up 12% in the year 2018.
Self harm among young women up 70%.
Life expectancy down 3 years.
NHS satisfaction level at lowest recorded rate.
Council home building down 90%.
200k social homes lost since 2010.
Zero starter homes built, despite Tory flagship programme.
Council home building down 90%.
200k social homes lost since 2010.
One million families on council home waiting list.
100,000 increase on the council home waiting list since 2010.
36,000 teachers have left teaching.
You don't have to like him!
He's not coming for tea!
He's not moving next door!
I don't like caramel nut but I still buy Quality Street!

All of those cuts, where are the benefits and results in real terms of the good its done?

[Galant]

Friend of mine posted this, pretty sure its not 100% fact checked but feel free to look it over.

... not fact checked but just going to dump a ton of one line statistics. Yeah, I don't have the time to try to fact check all of that. Particularly because it more or less avoids the points I raised anyway. I'm not sure what benefits of the cuts anyone expects to feel. Reducing debt never really feels good, if it feels anyway at all. Spending money often does feel good. But feeling any particular way isn't really the point. The point I raised was that the amount the Labour party are proposing to spend is colossal. Spending is one thing, and the Tories are clearly going to have spend more money, and build more debt while doing so. Some media outlets are stating that this election will see the end of 'austerity' regardless. However, we might ask, how much is too much? Is there a limit? Or do we just spend without regard for how much? The difference in spending between Tory and Labour proposals isn't just a little bit, it's not even a substantial difference, it's a massive, massive difference. If there's any reason to ever be concerned about spending, then Labour's current proposals should call up that concern.





And all that aside, the racism problems still remain. Labour is a mess.

[[GSV]Trig]

The country isn't in a better position for the cuts, personally I've adjusted my outgoings and can see my debt going down, so I can see why I'm tightening the belts, can we say the same for the country? The poor get poorer, the middle class, get poorer, the rich, get richer..

Racism problems exist in general, politics is a mess.

[Galant]

The country isn't in a better position for the cuts, personally I've adjusted my outgoings and can see my debt going down, so I can see why I'm tightening the belts, can we say the same for the country? The poor get poorer, the middle class, get poorer, the rich, get richer..

Racism problems exist in general, politics is a mess.

Again, none of that answers any of the questions. Ignoring real problems of documented racism and a poor party effort to resolve that problem is not a good thing, and to simply suggest that all problems are equal without demonstrating how is something like sticking one's head in the sand. Where's the indication that both parties have the same problem on the same scale and are handling it the same way? There are real questions of party leadership and policy in these regards.

And again, cuts, particularly over the short term, would never put the country in a 'good' position, it's a relative question of going slower and doing better than the alternative. I also haven't seen any evidence that the poor or middle class are getting poorer. What I've seen suggests everyone is getting richer. If there's a question it might be along the lines of who is getting richer faster, but that's something very different.

In my opinion, promising to just throw money at everything, in huge amounts, isn't a good thing to do, not to mention, nationalising broadband companies etc. isn't a good idea too, I wouldn't trust the government to run those services well. Debt would increase, and there's possible damage to investment if competition is essentially shut down.

Corbyn's vision of a giant socialist state is not a good one.

[[GSV]Trig]

Labour has a problem on this front, agreed, however, is it Corbyn himself, or just his lack of a backbone in tackling the issue, or just waiting until the GE is out of the way before things change, maybe his attention is simply elsewhere until the investigation is done, I dunno. Personally I don't think it's HIM that's the issue, given his track record of being the guy trying to get everyone together to solve problems, never personally met him so can't answer that outside of what the projection of him in the media is, and lets be fair, that's not exactly unbiased..

On the flip, BoJo has been, more than once, quoted saying things that are racist, maybe its the old generational racism where people sayings that are racism but not meant directly in an offensive way, like your grandad would sort of thing..

I didn't post the "dump" of stuff as a vote Labour thing, it was more a case of don't vote Tory, none of the parties are brilliant, but the saying goes, you can't please all of the people all of the time, and perhaps we do get the politicians we deserve, maybe we would be better off having a 2 party system and removing some of the choices as this generally makes things harder, as I said earlier, politics is broken and has become a corrupt boys club where if you know the right people, you're set, this needs to change....

[Galant]

Labour has a problem on this front, agreed, however, is it Corbyn himself, or just his lack of a backbone in tackling the issue, or just waiting until the GE is out of the way before things change, maybe his attention is simply elsewhere until the investigation is done, I dunno. Personally I don't think it's HIM that's the issue, given his track record of being the guy trying to get everyone together to solve problems, never personally met him so can't answer that outside of what the projection of him in the media is, and lets be fair, that's not exactly unbiased..

On the flip, BoJo has been, more than once, quoted saying things that are racist, maybe its the old generational racism where people sayings that are racism but not meant directly in an offensive way, like your grandad would sort of thing..

I didn't post the "dump" of stuff as a vote Labour thing, it was more a case of don't vote Tory, none of the parties are brilliant, but the saying goes, you can't please all of the people all of the time, and perhaps we do get the politicians we deserve, maybe we would be better off having a 2 party system and removing some of the choices as this generally makes things harder, as I said earlier, politics is broken and has become a corrupt boys club where if you know the right people, you're set, this needs to change....

Is it Corbyn himself,?
"lack of a backbone in tackling the issue" = Corbyn himself - leadership issue.
"just waiting until the GE is out of the way before things change" = Sounds like wishful thinking, why would things change?
"maybe his attention is simply elsewhere until the investigation is done" = Corbyn himself, because it's not just one investigation, it party policy and procedure, inconsistencies, and he has repeatedly shown an attitude of denying that there's even an issue and that he's done plenty/enough to resolve the issue...

I've not heard whatever comments you're referring to, but even if that is the case, as you've said, maybe it's just poor judgement, maybe not, has someone come forward accusing him of racism? Either way, there's a world of difference between some comments by the leader and a widespread problem throughout the party in word and deed, leading to sworn statements and party members/supporters urging people to vote in a different direction.

Politics is broken in many ways but one of those is, to my view, a lack of a viable opposition due to all of the above, and the absence of a more moderate and viable Labour vision.

[[GSV]Trig]

Maybe wishful thinking, I'd like to think that we aren't as backwards as we appear some times and that people are in fact, generally, good, decent, open and tolerant, but hey, its not just politics that appears to be broken...