Budget airlines and cancellations

[cptwhite_uk]

Just a quick rant really . Ryanair and Wizz are on my "never again" list.

Ryanair cancelled flights in 2020, understandably, but because I was a bit slack in rebooking flights (6 days prior to original flight date), and they had a cut off point of 7 days, I lost all my money - they won't issue a refund, or credit to book future flights, all on a technicality.

Wizz Air - booked flights this January (good price, but still about £900 all in). I had an e-mail last week saying the flights have been cancelled. You have to login to the website and request a 120% credit to be applied (obviously all flights are more than 120% of the original price I paid - more like 300% the original price now). Then once the credit has been added to your account (which needs approving manually it seems as it doesn't happen immediately) you have to request a refund through this form here (which isn't easily found through the website, I had the automated chat bot give me the link):

https://wizzair.com/en-gb/wizz-credi...ersion-request

....you need bank IBAN codes, flight reference codes - I mean I'm logged in, why can't I just select it from a list of flights I booked with you, or even better just tick all the flights and request a refund on all of them ina single action? They make it needlessly complicated. Once the request is submitted, there's no email confirmation to verify action has been recorded, but you have to login to the website and check your wizz account balance manually, having done this it says 2 out of 3 flights have a withdrawl request showing, despite all 3 refunds being processed within 5 minutes of each other. Having just gone through the proceedure for the 3th flight again (in case I'd made a mistake when I originally submitted the request), it's telling my the flight booking reference I'm inputting already has a refund request against it, if that's the case then why hasn't it been processed like the other 2 requests, which were done 5 days ago? I'm going to have to babysit the refund even more it seems to ensure it comes back to me (over £300). Also it's going to take upto 30 days for the credit to be applied back to my credit card.

So to recap, Wizz Air took my money on 12 Jan, will have held it until around 8th May, cancelled my flights for no obvious reason (staff shortages and covid rules aren't really applicable when the flight is 3+ months away), and have made me jump through hoops to get it back, wasting loads of my time. If they want to cancel flights that's not great, but surely they need to issue automatic refunds on that basis, like any other company would be required to do. It seems some legislation is in order to make the whole process run smoother.

Also having to chase a £211.95 DD which went to Igloo Energy, but never reached my E-On Next energy account. I have an e-mail from Igloo confirming it was transferred to E.On, but it's not showing on my account. So sick of chasing my money that should have just rightly come back to me. Note to others - if your energy company or any utility is going into administration, cancel the DD immediately to avoid rogue payments getting lost in the change over, you can always set them up again with the new company once you have an account with them.

So to summise, currently waiting for over £1000 to be returned to me from various companies, through no fault of my own

/rant over

[TeePee]

Aviation is in complete meltdown right now. Obviously passenger airlines were hit hard by lockdowns and travel restrictions. Seeing airports with lines of parked airplanes, or planes sitting at gates with engines removed, is incredibly depressing. They fired a lot of staff, and getting them back and retraining or staffing up takes a lot of time.

Then there's the trade off relating to air shipping. Airlines started using passenger airplanes hand loaded with boxes of freight. It's a very time consuming and inefficient process, but on some routes it lost less money than leaving the plane parked somewhere. As air freight rates skyrocketed, and passenger demand remained low, more and more airplanes were shifted to this side of the business. Now that passenger demand is back, fares are rising, but fares booked at cheaper rates may mean the company taking a loss over using the aircraft for freight.

Or, alternatively, they have enough people booked at cheaper rates, and enough demand that they can cancel your flight and refund you in order to sell tickets at a higher price on a new flight 20 minutes later. That's a typical budget airline move...

[cptwhite_uk]

I completely get that, but how are you meant to plan a holiday when flights are just cancelled at whim? I would accept the situation if refunds were automatically given on all cancelled flights and issued back to the customer within 7 working days (or some other legal time limit). The fact you have to jump through so many hoops and wait so long to get your money back, based on a commercial decision they took of they own volition is what really annoys me.

At the very least legislation needs putting in place to streamline and guarantee refunds automatically (without the customer having to take any action) and in a timely manner. Maybe some consideration of cut off point timescale wise as well, so if they try to cancel flights within 4 weeks of the flight date, they are obliged to offer an alternative flight within 72 hours of the original flight at the price originally agreed, or a full refund with some form of compensation on top of the flight cost.

[[GSV]Trig]

I agree, if someone takes your money, then they should give it back without you having to jump through hoops, be on a time limit or any of that crap, I'd moan on Twitter and get them tagged, usually helps...

[Saracen999]

I'm not a Twitter fan (or user) but in these sorts of circumstances, I agree entirely with Trig .... if you can get any momentum going, it's a VERY good way to focus the attention of a company that are being a&^holes.

I do regulary listen to various radio consumer affairs programs and this comes up regularly .... company X gives exactly zero hoots about some poor schmuck, sorry, customer, until Twitter takes off, then they're on the phone so fast you'd thing the Devil himself had set their tailbones on fire. The tricky bit will be getting that momentum going, though.

As for cancelled flights etc, this might sound a bit smug and it isn't intended to but, my nature is rather of the hassle-avoiding type. I have been known to go quite a long way out of my way, and certainly avoid things I would prefer to do, in order to pre-empt hassle and avoid getting in it in the first place. Some of my positions on issues over the years have this as a least part of why I adopted those positions, with major examples being near-paranoia over privacy and big-corp snooping (yes, Google, especially you), avoiding Steam in order to avoid even the risk of losing out if they go down or ban my account for whatever reason, and my loathing of Windows auto-updates whether I like it or not.

So, and this is the bit that might sound smug, this kind of situation is why I refuse to even contemplate any holiday that might require getting on a plane .... or a cruise liner, for that matter. The risk of problems, given the state of the world right now, with flights etc is too high, crops up on consumer programs too often, and can be so much of a pain to sort out that, while I utterly sympathise with your frustration (and, dare I say, anger) for me I'd rather just not risk it in the first place. Not that that helps you much. But thanks for the warning.

[cptwhite_uk]

I'm sure (at least I hope), I will eventually recieve a refund, but that doesn't make it okay to make it so damned hard to have my money returned because the company decided to back out of a contractual agreement between us.

[Output]

It certainly does sound odd that they can seemingly cancel for whatever their own reasons are when they like, but make you jump through hoops to get it returned rather than simply refunding straight to the original payment method.

[TeePee]

Did you have travel insurance?

I'm flying back to the US (as a passenger) on Saturday. The flight I booked was from London to Seattle. They changed times and routes several times. As of now I'm on a codeshare flight to AMS then to SEA. I'm expecting something to go wrong.

[Saracen999]

I'm sure (at least I hope), I will eventually recieve a refund, but that doesn't make it okay to make it so damned hard to have my money returned because the company decided to back out of a contractual agreement between us.

The cynic in me. and it's getting bigger as I get older, wonders if it's a deliberate policy - on the basis that some percentage will just give up, or not have the stamina, or even just plain forget. A bit like, oh, say insurance companies load up premiums for 'loyal' customers, or utility companies, mobile phone providers and broadband companies all-too-often (though not always) omit to mention your contract minimum period has run out and you could negotiate ... or move. ISTR it's called inertia marketing.

[Saracen999]

It certainly does sound odd that they can seemingly cancel for whatever their own reasons are when they like, but make you jump through hoops to get it returned rather than simply refunding straight to the original payment method.

Again, my cynical side says if they can delay refunding by days, weeks or even months then they get to keep the money for that much longer. Multi0ly it up by thousads of people and .... real money.

It used to be about generating income from depositing funds on overnight', though less so these days. But I'd bet a factor, especially for Covid-damaged travel companies, is their operating cash flow. Probably a big factor.

[badass]

Did you pay for any percentage of either sets of tickets with a credit card?
If so just dispute the transaction. Far quicker and easier.

[cptwhite_uk]

I paid for all of them on credit card, didn't think this would be the first recourse to take, just going to give them the stated 30 days, then I'll be contacting the credit card company.

[cptwhite_uk]

Again, my cynical side says if they can delay refunding by days, weeks or even months then they get to keep the money for that much longer. Multi0ly it up by thousads of people and .... real money.

It used to be about generating income from depositing funds on overnight', though less so these days. But I'd bet a factor, especially for Covid-damaged travel companies, is their operating cash flow. Probably a big factor.

I suspect you've hit the nail on the head there.

[[GSV]Trig]

Have you read through their T&C's on the booking pages?
There was something I read last year where poeple were going down the charge back route on the credit card but then if you read (Think it was Ryan Air in this instance) that there are no refunds end of story, but people were getting their money back via the credit card company but then Ryan Air were saying that you owed them that money, so if you tried to book another flight with them you still owed them for the initial flight..

[cptwhite_uk]

That wouldn't be a problem for me, as I'm literally blacklisting them for life, but I will take that into consideration. I'll play ball at the moment and leave the credit card company out of it. 3rd refund still hasn't been processed on my WiizAir statement (on website), despite the others going through on the 8th April, and all 3 being processed within 10 minutes of each other. Double checked again, and it says the refund for the 3rd payment has been actioned. Well it's an easy thing to remember as it's near my birthday, so they have until then to sort it. I have tried contacting them to make them aware of the situation but that's impossible through the automated chat, and the call centre is on a premium rate number @ £1.45/min, so I won't be bothering with that.

I've done everything I've been asked to do from my end, and provided all the information requested, so they have until the 30 day limit they stipulated in themselves to refund me, then I'll be contacting the credit card to get them involved.

[Saracen999]

Have you read through their T&C's on the booking pages?
There was something I read last year where poeple were going down the charge back route on the credit card but then if you read (Think it was Ryan Air in this instance) that there are no refunds end of story, but people were getting their money back via the credit card company but then Ryan Air were saying that you owed them that money, so if you tried to book another flight with them you still owed them for the initial flight..

The point is taken, but it's always worth rememering that what companies put in their T&C's isn't necessarily enforceable.

I rememer an example being pointed out to me about 40 years (or a bit more) ago. A lady went into a dry-cleaner with an expensive coat. When it came back, the buttons had been melted into the material and the coat material was damaged. It had obviously been cleaned at much too high a temperature. The coat-owner said "You'll need to pay for a replacement", and the cleaner nonchalantly pointed at a sign that said something like "All work undertaken at property-owner's risk".

She said "That's legally unenforceable" and the cleaner said "So sue me then". She handed him a business card, and said "Okay, see you in court".

The coat owner was the lady barrister that was telling the story, in my basic consumer law course.

The coat was replaced by the cleaner.

I'm not suggesting ignorng T&C's. Most of the time, they will be enforceable, and these days much more so than in the days I referred to, not least because most companies have wised up to those terms made unenforceable by statute, and I'd think a blanket "no refunds" topped that list. I suspect that that assertion will be plastered with caveats, one of which will be the blanket statement that no terms in the contract should be seen as superceding statute law, and that if any terms is deemed unenforceable, the rest of the terms still stand. That letter bit avoids the entire contract ending up failing.

My point? Be a little cautious how T&C's are read, especially when they're from, how do I put it, particularly slippery companies.

That wouldn't be a problem for me, as I'm literally blacklisting them for life,

....

That has been my policy for years. Decades, actually. If a company winds me up enough, well, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

My red line isn't when something goes wrong. The best companies (and people) screw up from time to time. My red line is when they really mess me about after being notified of their screw-up. If they fix it promptly, fine. Mess me about too much = blacklist. Really mess me about and it's time for the nasty (but legal) tricks department.