Turn up at the place where you can seek asylum (forgot the name of it), with some random story and no documents...Oh yeah? Perhaps you could put me in touch with the government's voluntary deportation department then, because I seem to have missed that one.
I have to admit it doesn't keep me awake at night either, because I neither hate immigrants nor work for the Home Office. I did read on for a bit but lost interest, and thought instead I'd weigh in with a short word to the wise:Originally Posted by Proplus
Don't renew your passport if you don't want to (really, you don't have to), and be prepared to queue up at your police station when ordered to do so to be catalogued, if you like the idea. While you are waiting, strike up a conversation with the sheeple around you about how good it all is, and how safe from terrorists you all are, and how with all the illegals gone you'll be able to take your pick of employment - maybe you'll forge a career in the kitchen of your local Chinese takeaway, or maybe your future is in cleaning offices at night, the world will be your oyster. Best of all, everyone will know that you truly have nothing to hide.
But don't expect that the people who have actually thought about the issue will be convinced by such banal arguments. Don't forget; five years ago noone had any opinions on the National Identity Register, so people who are against it now are not the product of lifelong dogmatic brainwashing. They are just people who have thought about it, and reached the conclusion that things are better when the most basic civil liberties are not under attack and there is no tax imposed on existence. Feel free to reach whatever conclusion you want
But they have no ID already; and no valid employment records. So they can already be stopped just like that. There's no "background checks" necessary, or at least none that an ID card would make any simpler.
So ID cards are irrelevant here; what's needed is better resourcing of the security services. I think I already said that.
What...like Burnley? Seriously, are you going to flag anyone who goes to Pakistan? Malaysia? Even if you do, you haven't achieved anything - Mr Suspect leaves the UK for a non-suspicious destination and then travels illegally to "terror hotspot" before reentering non-suspicious country and then returning to the UK.
An ID card system won't know who to check, because neither will the authorities implementing it. ID cards are largely irrelevant to the terrorism question.
Actually, I did, and your analogy makes even less sense than your original paragraph. Whether a scheme is likely to be implemented successfully should be a crucial question when determining whether we spend billions on implementing it at all. And ignoring the parties' prior track record when making that determination is simply stupid.
Actually, you simply attributed statements and opinions to me that I never said, and never agreed with. Now you're demanding that I defend a position with which I don't agree and for which I never expressed support because it's one with which you find it easier to argue? Grow up.
Ah...the light of reason is fading from your eyes... I gave examples of other large government IT projects which have failed in that same post, and I would hold that these are the best indicator of the likely successful implementation of the National Identity Register and the ID cards that go with it. You'd apparently like wishful thinking to be valued more highly than observable evidence. Good luck with that...
Not 100%? The courts system is still not working, neither is the CSA, the NHS's IT is a disaster area... These are not teething troubles with successful implementations, they're utter disasters.
You haven't provided a single example of a situation which ID cards would genuinely resolve. Not terrorism, not undocumented aliens, not underage drinking...nothing. I have never argued that there is a single answer; you, contrarily, appear to believe that 10 grams of plastic is a magic bullet that will solve terrorism, immigration, underage drinking at a stroke. It won't.
So basically, if the laws in this country are your problem, ID cards won't help that either, since those same laws, and the personnel responsible for enforcing them will remain. Increasing resources to the police will actually allow more street patrols reducing opportunities for underage drinking, increasing resources to the DWP would provide more inspectors to catch firms illegally employing undocumented workers, and increasing resources to the security services would give them more personnel to keep those dodgy elements under better observation. Seems clear enough.
I am *in principle* not against the ID card however it will be at best ineffective and at worst affect civil liberties because of the cackhanded way it will be implemented, no doubts by the likes of EDS who will charge them a fortune and give them a terrible and buggy product.
As for helping with immigration problems - err exactly how is that. Deporting 500,000 people would be a massive and probably impossible task, not to mention it would cost more to the country than NOT deporting them. ID cards wont stop them trying to get in because they WONT HAVE ONE.
Check it out. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4862826.stm
So what happens if a legit worker in a shop is there when they do a spot check, but this worker has forgotton their wallet at home - and with it their ID card. What would happen then? The police take her home to get it and check right? The consequences of that would be that the shop would close (and lose money), the worker obviously won't like the idea of being escorted home by the police (what would the neighbours say?)
You would end up 'programming' people to carry ID all the time if you did that, they would e scared not to carry it...
Can't be arsed to read and reply so much now....
In countries that have ID systems, and implement spot checks by the police, this is how it goes. Those people are in the habit of carrying their ID cards in their wallets with them all the time. I wouldn't as drastically put it as 'programming' them to carry the card with them at all times, but find it a necessity like a man leaving the house with his keys, mobile phone and wallet.
Habits die hard.
Dear god, please read on from there and not extract sentences you like fits your 'needs'. Even if those with no ID remain with no ID, the system would make it so that the police can check on them much quicker, therefore more checks.
Wonders what a database can store, even your destinations abroad, yes even interconnecting flights and flights flown from other countries.What...like Burnley? Seriously, are you going to flag anyone who goes to Pakistan? Malaysia? Even if you do, you haven't achieved anything - Mr Suspect leaves the UK for a non-suspicious destination and then travels illegally to "terror hotspot" before reentering non-suspicious country and then returning to the UK.
I was not implying terrorism here, rather the issues of this society.An ID card system won't know who to check, because neither will the authorities implementing it. ID cards are largely irrelevant to the terrorism question.
Actually you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't come back with such a lame answer. I'm not ignoring a party's prior track record, but that record does not say that future projects are all going to be failures. Eventhough our government has cocked many things up, that does not mean they'll cock up everything in the future. You might call it blind faith, but I'm more optimistic about it. If we all had the same attitude as you, then nothing will ever get done about this country.Actually, I did, and your analogy makes even less sense than your original paragraph. Whether a scheme is likely to be implemented successfully should be a crucial question when determining whether we spend billions on implementing it at all. And ignoring the parties' prior track record when making that determination is simply stupid.
Not once have you even given one single support to your 'opinions', roughly summed up as: you don't want your info stored on a database (which it already is), and you can't think of what the system can lead to in a positive way (just slagging it off). Live with the times, look towards the future, all you are doing is looking into the past and saying 'this and this is not going to work, and they've botched it up in the past', if you don't look forward then things will never improve. By your way of thinking, they should be no planes in this world, as all the flying experiments in the past at first were all disasters.Actually, you simply attributed statements and opinions to me that I never said, and never agreed with. Now you're demanding that I defend a position with which I don't agree and for which I never expressed support because it's one with which you find it easier to argue? Grow up.
Look at other countries that have an ID system, sure underage drinking will exist everywhere, but at least its off the streets for them.You haven't provided a single example of a situation which ID cards would genuinely resolve. Not terrorism, not undocumented aliens, not underage drinking...nothing. I have never argued that there is a single answer; you, contrarily, appear to believe that 10 grams of plastic is a magic bullet that will solve terrorism, immigration, underage drinking at a stroke. It won't.
Yes, the laws of this country are the problem, but the ID system would be the first step in changing these laws. You argue that you can increase the number of bobbies on the streets which will reduce crime, so if crime dramatically drops because of this, what happens to the 'surplus' bobbies? Do they get made redundant? And if so, what if crime rises again? Pump more money in to provide more police again? What if you don't make the 'surplus' redundant, do you still carry on paying for something thats not need? Not exactly a long term solution to things, is it?So basically, if the laws in this country are your problem, ID cards won't help that either, since those same laws, and the personnel responsible for enforcing them will remain. Increasing resources to the police will actually allow more street patrols reducing opportunities for underage drinking, increasing resources to the DWP would provide more inspectors to catch firms illegally employing undocumented workers, and increasing resources to the security services would give them more personnel to keep those dodgy elements under better observation. Seems clear enough.
First post, first troll, no profile, gee whizz, there's a surprise. Possibly turning the light on would have helped; I've been happily married for some years and we have a daughter. But thanks for asking...
Second Post, lights on, no profile. I stand corrected & surprised. Second stab in the dark & no offence meant. You love Michael Moorcock novels & adore the original series of 'Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy' & 'Star Trek' holds a special place in your heart. You never do the lottery, not religious, not superstitious, sport a small beard & drive a very practical vehicle. Ah ! & you definately didn't go abroad for your honeymoon.
Kind Regards
Elric
------------
treebilly - If you want to join in the discussion, then please do. Making personal remarks and assumptions about other members has nothing to do with the subject on hand, and i must ask that you stop
Cheers
Last edited by Agent; 16-05-2006 at 11:51 PM.
Could you go and be both irrelevant and inaccurate somewhere else, please?
Except that carriage of the cards won't be compulsory, so it'll be visit, come back later, come back again after that, anyone who's lost their card will have to go through the same process as they do now... It still won't solve the problem. ID cards are an irrelevance; it's the employer's responsibility to ensure that their staff are properly documented. If the employer doesn't have proper documentation, which is their responsibility to maintain, then action can be taken, exactly as at present, although with a few more caseworkers they'd get the job done more quickly.
*yawn* Yes, and this database magically knows about completely undocumented travel, does it? All you're describing is exactly what happens at the moment. You can document their travel up to the point that they drop off the radar.
What....all of them?The ID card won't affect the issue that you raise about checking on "these people" if they're not documented in the first place.
You mean "a perfectly reasonable answer that you happen not to like".
Well, yes you are, actually. You're ignoring the fact that having signally failed in implementing smaller and less complicated systems repeatedly, and blithely assuming that they'll be able to successfully implement a system that is several orders of magnitude more complex and more massive. That's not reasonable, that's mad.
Actually I'd call it sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and shouting "LALALALALA I'M NOT LIIIIIIIISTENING!". I don't assume that the government will cock everything up; I happen to believe that they get a lot of things right. I don't assume that the private sector will. However, when it comes to large IT projects, central government's track record has been appallingly poor, as has that of their private sector partners, as noted above. It's a reasonable assumption that those same parties will merely magnify their errors to a scale commensurate with the increased magnitude of the proposed system.
Well this is a priceless piece of pure unadulterated bollocks. Your "summation" of my opinions is in fact another pitiful attempt to erect a straw man and force me to defend it. I'm very well aware that a lot of information is stored on multiple databases. I object, however, to being obliged to purchase a license to be a citizen. That's a purely philosophical objection, and one which you don't happen to share. Fine, all well and good.
I've heard what the system is supposed to "lead to in a positive way", and it's utter balderdash. It simply doesn't and cannot have the effects that you hope, for the reasons repeatedly given above, by myself and others (it would appear, by the way, that the British people whose name you appropriated earlier are not unanimously enamoured of ID cards...).
Analogously your position appears to be "look, who cares if the last 100 people got smashed to bits on the rocks...just jump off the ****ing cliff and flap, alright?". Actually, successful flight was achieved by careful observation of what worked and what didn't, and understanding the principles by which flight succeeded or failed.
The National Identity Register will be implemented by exactly the same people, using exactly the same processes as every other failed massive government IT project.
On planet ProPlus, perhaps, but having been through a few countries with ID cards, and seeing underage drinking on the streets, then I'd have to say that the reality-based comunity would probably distance itself from you on that one. And a better method of keeping it off the streets would be to increase the number of police officers patrolling those streets.
Well, no, actually, all that the introduction of ID cards will mean from that aspect is that we'll have the same laws but with a piece of plastic. Sorry.
Well, actually, I would say that if employing more police brings crime down, that demonstrates that those police are not surplus, since it is their presence having the effect. Consequently, they could not be described as surplus or not needed as long as that lower crime rate is desired. So that would make it a long term solution. QED.
Excuse me ?
If I saw people being exploited in this fashion, I would report it. As for actively perusing people working illegally, that’s not my job, nor is it what I am paid to do. But I am taxed for it (not by choice my I add) so that the government can “handle” the issue.
There a hundreds of issues which happen everyday day I don’t agree with, to suggest that im “prepared” to sit on my arse is a very big assumption considering you have never met me, know me personally, or what things I do to help people that I feel are being exploited.
These ID cards won’t highlight who is breaking the law, just find out who a person is once they have been caught. If someone is caught breaking the law now, they arnt let back on the street purely because they cant be identified. In fact, that would raise more cause for concern alone.So whats the solution? ID cards would be a step in the right direction, as it'll give the police more power to stop these 'business' owners and their employees by on the spot checks. You might say they can do
that now, but with the current system of background checks, each person checked would take ages in getting the info (or lack of) about them. No ID, back to the cop shop, simple as that, where either more thorough checks are made or a person of the 'arrested' are contacted to bring that person's ID card down.
While if they had a card, it may speed up identifying them, we are back to the same situation as mentioned previously : If they are working illegally and here illegally, they are not going to go and register for a card. We cant force them to register for one, because we don’t know they are here.
At this point, its irrelevant of if the ID system was implemented and they didn’t have a card, or if it wasn’t implemented at all. The ID card system still would not of helped identify them in any way.
So how exactly does a ID card help in this situation ?Its not if an ID card system was used before if any of the past terrorists acts would have been prevented, its if any of the special forces would have acted on it (they knew that the some of the 7/7 bombers were plotting and meeting with other members of terrorist organizations, but didn't do anything).
If they knew that they were meeting with other terror organisations, and didn’t act on it, an ID card scheme would have made no difference whatsoever.
Going by the same theory, I should be scrutinised for being a typical “British holiday-maker yob” because I have a skinhead and travel to Ibiza?If a person visits one of these 'terror hotspots' in the world (where known terror groups exist/recruit/brainwash/etc), the system can flag these people up as suspects for close scrutiny. You can argue there are those that belong to terror groups that have UK residence already, but I'm not referring to them, but the illegals and those that are recruited/trained/brainwashed/etc abroad.
Im still yet to see one point from you where a ID card can prevent terrorism.If the card system prevents one single person from doing an act of terror, its still helping in the prevention of acts of terror. And Agent, its called preventing not deflecting, to stop and act before it happens.
Terrorists do not use just one method – they will use any to cause distruption and kill people. If (and im still waiting for an explanation of how) a ID card makes one method more difficult, they will resort to another.
These people are fanatical. They will do anything to cause harm and disruption to others. Im just utterly bemused as to why you think a bit of plastic can change this ?
They could have been raised in Britain, come from the perfect family background and have no known links with any terrorist organisation. But if they decide to walk into a crowd with a bomb attached to them, an ID card is NOT going to stop this
Again, this only serves a purpose when they don’t know who the person is. In the majority of all terrorist attacks, once they have taken place, they know who the person is, and have records on them.Thats why the ID system is the first step in the right direction in combatting this issue by giving the authorities more power to check on these people, whilst each check takes a minimum amount of time.
That’s the entire point - I cant see how this can help solve some of societies issues. Im all for solving the many problems that this country has. I just don’t want to see billions of tax payers money go to waste, making people involved in the project rich, while failing in the end and providing no additional benefit.Again, it seems that you prefer that the government don't do anything new to help solve some of this society's issues
And on the flip side, there is a lot of countries that don’t have the ID system and work efficiently too.nothing comes free and nothing comes with a guarantee that it will work 100%. I'm not saying that other countries that have an ID system have absolutely no problems at all, but they run a damn sight more efficient than this country.
On the 100% side of things: Is this the same “100%” that other government projects work ?, if so, id say its generious to give anything over 50%.
Again, can you name any recent successful, government managed ICT systems that have not been late, goals reshaped and ran over budget ?
Irrelevant of if it was the cars fault of the fuel: Your still going to be walking homeIf you bother to read the entire paragraph and not pick words to your liking then you'll understand that even if the implemented IT system (which we are not talking about in the first place) fails, its not the actual ID system which is failing. Its like you putting petrol into your car and one day the car breaks down because you forgot to buy any petrol, its not the car's fault for breaking down with no fuel, is it?
The same is the same with the card system. If it did fail, to me, it still don’t matter which aspect of it failed. It failed. Money has been wasted, we have to deal with the same problems…yada ydya
I cant see one example of what you have said, ID cards would resolveI have provided examples of problems which the ID system will help to solve. No one single solution will ever solve this and that problems, and if you believe in that then well.....
I don’t have any issues with the government centralising data. It makes sense. It costs less, is more efficient and may help with certain crimes such as fraud. But these ID systems that are in place are already broke. They are being exploited everyday. These need to be fixed before we even consider another one.What would be the difference with the current system(s) now and that having an ID system? The same information that many institutions have stored on you already will be stored on the ID system, just more centralized.
What happens when someone with a passport + driving licence that has been obtained via identify fraud within the current broken system, applies for an ID? How are these people going to be identified?
The laws and the rules that authorises have to abide by is a totally different matter. This is another point that you raise without explaining in any way how implementing ID cards would help resolve the situation.No it won't help, do you know why? Because of the laws/rules which the police/security forces of this country has to abide by, its just a complete joke. As I mentioned earlier with the 7/7 bombers, MI5 (or 6) knew of certain individuals were plotting something but did nothing about it. With something more down to earth, whats putting more bobbies on the streets do? Prevent shop-lifting? Will it help spot illegals? And would hippies start to complain that there are no too many police on their streets preventing their freedom, man. Whats more moner got to do with you shooting a burglar in your home, but you going to prison for it? It may help riot problems at football matches, but it doesn't help solve the problems within this society.
So why not just sort the existing systems out and centralise those ?Probably, but I guess they won't to centralize the whole thing so data can be pulled off it for a person in more go without having to go through to different databases.
Last edited by Agent; 17-05-2006 at 12:14 AM.
And which countries woudl these be? Care to offer an example, preferable with some kind of proof (eg you have lived there, or independant statistics)?
No? Ok well yes, in my experience there are less underage drinkers in some countries with ID cards. Switzerland has an ID card policy - and that is where I am living for the next few months (as a foreigner I don't *need* to carry my ID, it's slightly different and more complicated). I see almost no kids out on the street drinking or smoking, but there is another reason.
Their drinking age is lower - it's 16 here for beer, so the prime underage drinkers are actually not underage. So the figures are bound to be much lower, and the problem nicely hidden away. The fact that 16 year old kids are now allowed to become legal drug addicts is crazy imho, the fact that alcohol is legal is crazy too but that's another arguement
Anyway I fail to see how ID cards would cut underage drinking - It hasn't had an effect anywhere else..
Just like to raise a couple of points not yet discussed in this thread:
Identity Cards will impede the police
For ID cards to be effective in detecting illegal immigrants, police will have to carry out frequent spot checks on everyone - not only will this require a considerable amount of police time (which will effectively be wasted on re-verifying legitimate citizens) but it will also cause general resentment, which in turn will make real crime-fighting harder (police require community support to be effective). This was why ID cards were abolished in 1952 (see When the British fought off ID cards).
Identity Cards will like make ID-theft easier
This may seem ironic to many, but with a national ID card will come a national ID number. Within a year of the cards' introduction, almost every application form (credits/loans/mortgages, gas/electricity/telephone accounts, "loyalty" schemes and other subscriptions) will also require this number. This widespread use and reliance on a single identifier will then make it easier for criminals use other peoples' identities by finding their ID number, as is the case currently with Social Security numbers in the United States.
Identity Cards' effect on privacy
Strictly-speaking, the card itself is not a privacy threat - however the information system behind it is the real danger. Having more data linked to a single identifier makes it far easier to gather information, for good and ill. For example, government agencies may be able to access financial data (credit card balances, satellite subscriptions) which is justified for means-tested benefit claimants but this may also result in credit-reference agencies and lenders (or even loansharks) being able to access more personal data like family status, tax details or health information (especially if the Government decides to sell personal data to help finance the system).
Future integration with systems to monitor personal movements like Project Laser, travel cards like Oyster or even GSM geolocation raises the possibility of every person's whereabouts being tracked and available for review months, or even years, later.
Identity Card Costs
Aside from the initial costs of the cards, the biometric readers and IT systems (government and commercial) which have been estimated by the LSE to range from £10.6 billion to £19.2 billion, there will also be higher ongoing costs in maintaining these systems and data (another reason for abolishing ID cards in 1952 was to be able to cut back on staff) with citizens needing to spend more time in keeping their information accurate and up-to-date.
Whether people consider the "prevention of terrorism" important enough (the number of lives lost to terrorist action is so far almost insignificant compared to more mundane causes like traffic accidents) to merit these sort of costs is their opinion. However what cannot be argued is the Orwellian-potential and dangers that this country is heading for as a consequence.
UK citizens' online activity already has to be recorded (under Part 11 - Retention of Communications Data of the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001) so it will be interesting to see how many of the "nothing to hide" brigade agree to having the pr0n sites they visit being included on a national database...
"we'd love to give you this job, but we don't employ people into freaky goat-and-eel porn"
Or maybe even worse..."we'd love to give you this job, but we don't employ people into freaky goat-and-eel porn"
"Your taste for goat-and-eel porn makes you ideally suited for this job!"
Good point about the internet usage paranoid2000, and just think what if this, and the ID card system were combined with ECHELON?
Granted technically the UK cannot use ECHELON to spy on it's own citizens, but theres nothing to stop the US from using it to spy on us, and sharing the info with the uk government is there? In fact this is reportedly what currently happens, the UK spys on the US for the US gov, and the US on the UK for the UK gov.
The potential is huge, you could end up with each citizen having an 'account', in which all their personal details, whereabouts and through ECHELON all their phone conversations and unencrypted emails stored for review.
Hopefully we can stop it before it gets that far though
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