drugs

[Grm]

Why would there be a need for a black market if people are getting it cheaper. Say there buying cocaine from Columbia, they get it very cheap and they add there tax on top. That would make it lets say £15-£20 a gram. Why would people pay £40 off dodgy dave down the pub. Making the drugs and selling them cheaper would get rid of the black market.

And why shouldnt they make money off it, they make money off everything else. Tax in this country is a joke and always will be.

[Tom Scott]

I'm certainly not saying thats in anyway likely. That question i am posing is, would they be a significant increase in drug use if all drugs were completely legalised, and would that outway the benefits?
If the answer is no, then they should be legalised. But based on my own experience, i honestly think it would.

My opinions, it'd cause an increase officially, but unofficially I doubt there would be a massive uptake in the hardcore drugs such as Heroin and Crack simply because they were legal.

Its a bit like the age of consent (edit: didn't realise it was 16 for Homo and hetrosexuals now... thought they still had the stupid differences) , would people have sex at a older age if it was raised, or would they just be doing it even though it was illegal?

[autopilot]

Why would there be a need for a black market if people are getting it cheaper. Say there buying cocaine from Columbia, they get it very cheap and they add there tax on top. That would make it lets say £15-£20 a gram. Why would people pay £40 off dodgy dave down the pub. Making the drugs and selling them cheaper would get rid of the black market.

It's a very good point, and one of many good augments for legalisation. It would help, but why is there still a black market in virtually everything else that's legal?

In fact could it in some respects not even benefit the black market? The black market for legal items, like say tobacco, is less frowned upon than the black market for illegal items. Also, could the market not increase if there was a bigger uptake, for both illegal and legal outlets? I'm not saying, just asking.

[Grm]

Things can always be found cheaper yes. But who would you trust if you was a drug user. I know the government aint people to trust, but at least you know there might be that 10% less chance of taking something mixed with anything lethal. Black market is just people making money, they dont care how many people get hurt in the process.

[Grm]

If the government was buying everything up, prices would rise as there would not be enough "supply on demand" People wouldnt bother trying to make money that way, they would just make money from something else. Drugs will be around for ever, they will never get rid of the problem so why keep trying to fight it when they could get rid of all the problems by joining in.

[autopilot]

Things can always be found cheaper yes. But who would you trust if you was a drug user. I know the government aint people to trust, but at least you know there might be that 10% less chance of taking something mixed with anything lethal. Black market is just people making money, they dont care how many people get hurt in the process.

Which was why i made the point that they would have to be either free, or amazingly cheap so that addicts on this governments pitiful benefits will have to take it many times every day. There are many alcoholics that cant afford decent booze, and drink nasty crap. People don't, usually the ones that are afflicted with life ruining addiction, have the luxury the buy Tesco Finest Smack. People will go for the cheapest option, usually because that the only option they have because there addiction has stopped them holding down a job. It's a catch 22. How much is the 'Job seekers benefit' now? Could someone on it even afford £5-10 a day?

Again, just asking as there are some many factors.

[Grm]

There could be allsorts of things though. Cheaper versions which is of less quality. If you want the best you pay top whack. It can be done, i heard a while ago of some ecstasy tablets which were made for 13-14 year olds, it didnt have much of a buzz but it still did the job.

[JPreston]

Who exactly said that? Thats absurd.

Er....you did (but you said you were no angel yourself, so maybe your memory has suffered ) :

I think the problem too many people have with drugs is the effect they observe is only ever from one class of people.

You hit the nail firmly on the head there. It's no coincidence that the vast majority of people with the option that legalising all drugs are generally young recreational users that have a nice middle class life, never had any problems with thier or thier mates use and have little experience of the real world. It's a selfish argument, because they don't want to get busted smoking a spliff or taking the odd pill at the weekends....

So, the only reason that I think drugs should be legalised is because I am middle-class (which I'm not FWIW), so of course I can cope and keep my habit recreational...but you see the less educated, the poor are simply not equipped with the same capacity for self-control and have to be kept in line...

Instead I would say:

I think the problem too many people have with drugs is the effect they observe is only ever from one class of people. If you have truely nothing in your life, drugs do become it, regardless of...

...whether or not they are illegal. But if they were legal, then you would be able to get onto a proper treatment programme and you might one day feel empowered to quit. Alcoholics Anonymous wouldn't have many members or successes if we criminalised everyone who said "my name is X and I'm an alcoholic".

Whether or not a substance is illegal is basically an accident of history so speaking of alcohol, why shouldn't that be made illegal tomorrow? What about tobacco? There is no coherent way to argue that these drugs are OK, but those are not. You probably can't draw a line anywhere, but to say that alcohol and tobacco are OK but ecstasy and cannabis definitely are not ...what have you been smoking?

[Clunk]

...what have you been smoking?

Alcohol

[autopilot]

Er....you did (but you said you were no angel yourself, so maybe your memory has suffered )

Please quote what i posted saying that drug use is ok for certain classes of people. Because thats not what i am saying, even it it came across that way.

Oh, and I have certainly never taken crack or heroin!

But if they were legal, then you would be able to get onto a proper treatment programme and you might one day feel empowered to quit. Alcoholics Anonymous wouldn't have many members or successes if we criminalised everyone who said "my name is X and I'm an alcoholic".

But again, what has an effective treatment plan have to do with it's legality?

(and BTW, the AA is a support group, not a treatment programme).

Why would more people suddenly turn to the heath system to get help, just because it's legal now?

Is having Aids illegal? Why should the fact that drugs are illegal stop us from having effective treatment programme? Fear of prosecution? No, people seriously and actively trying to help themselves should not be prosecuted, and in many cases rightly now are not. You could do away with that without the need to completely legalize it. Again, that's down to the way we treat them, the fact that it's illegal should not stop people from getting help.

I guess the question is, do you think it's ok for people to have life ruining addictions which we should just forget about and sweep under the carpet (because that's what complete legalisation could be like)? If you don't care, then it does not matter. But if we want to reduce the number of addicts, then how can people be forced to have treatment for something that's legal? And before you say people should not be forced, well in some cases maybe they need to be (i guess that could be a whole other debate) because people in the grip of addiction are often not exactly capable of sound thinking or have the courage to seek help. Of course it's not as simple as 'forcing' someone to stop, that would be absurd, but you have to start somewhere and sometimes people need others people to intervene.

An example could be like when someone is sectioned under the mental heath act. Has anyone seen that excellent mini series with Steven Fry about his battle with mental health? The bit about how no one ever wants to be sectioned and are often always needed to be restrained into hospital and sedated. Yet they virtually always understand why and thank the doctors for saving their life where they come out the other side.

I'm not saying your wrong, but can you explain to me why treatment can only be improved by legalisation?

[Grm]

I guess the question is, do you think it's ok for people to have life ruining addictions which we should just forget about and sweep under the carpet (because that's what complete legalisation could be like)? If you don't care, then it does not matter. But if we want to reduce the number of addicts, then how can people be forced to have treatment for something that's legal? And before you say people should not be forced, well in some cases maybe they need to be (i guess that could be a whole other debate) because people in the grip of addiction are often not exactly capable of sound thinking or have the courage to seek help. Of course it's not as simple as 'forcing' someone to stop, that would be absurd, but you have to start somewhere and sometimes people need others people to intervene.

I can bet 9/10 would take the treatment hands down. There addicted they HAVE to have there daily intake of what ever it is there on, but if they could get the right help, they wouldnt need to. They could get off it. People are easily led and once there led there hooked. Its a slippery slope with no chance of getting back to the top. They wont like having to wake up everyday and thinking of where there going to have to steal from to get there next fix. Im sure that if they werent so messed up on crap that they would be ashamed of what there doing.

[TheAnimus]

whoever mentioned cannabis causing depression is ill informed

recent studies have showed cannabis as used medicinally can help keep depression at bay

Prolonged effect of cannabis usage

Mr Joe Smith

abstract: the work presented herein strives to demonstrate the posative correlation between cannabis consumption and increase of phalus length. This study highlighted the need for further research into the effect on gerth.

come on. Seriously, even the most middle class weed users admit it has amazing depression powers, the only that claim not too i've ever meet are users, who i would consider are depressed. Seriously, there is soo much of a link, neroscientists are constantly finding more and more evidence with prolonged use and serious scitozphrenia and depression.

Now the problem with depression tends to be the person not getting help, often they might admit it to themselfs at one level but not enough to get help.

Granted its not the drug alone, but the same could be said about child porn won't encorage you to rape kiddies enless you have a pre-disposition to it.

[MadduckUK]

...what have you been smoking?

Fly paper?

[nessie287]

Should ban both tbh. Theres nothing worse than sitting in a pub and u get some ignorant f**k blowing smoke away from him into your food. But then walking through a group of people who have all jsut been smoking weed or are, is one of the worst smells again!

Good thing when you live where I am, the smoking ban has been in effect for quite a while in Scotland now and even as a smoker myself I really enjoy the air in pubs and clubs now.
To get back to the issue...I think that so called "soft" drugs like weed should be legalised, I have been smoking the odd joint for the past 12 years and so far it has had no effect on my brain function or anything else. I think it's all in the quantity, it will effect your brain etc. if you take it every day for a long period of time, like alcohol.
Alcohol does things a lot worse to people and if the government wouldn't make so much money in taxes on it I bet it would be banned.

[Ben_]

drugs are bad

except when your in an unavoidably boring place, school for example

if it wasnt for weed school would have been incredibly unbearable

[Lee H]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/h...rugsreport.pdf

That's quite a good read and also applies to the topic a lot of you are discussing, very maturely as well might I add

It goes to show, that something that's been around for years and years such as alcohol and ciggies actually do more harm than the governments are willing to let on, but hey - they don't want to lose their huge tax fund from these do they