RTX-30xxx - price gouging in the UK - I thought it was illegal?

[Saracen999]

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It's not entitlement to have these views, it's not entitlement as customers to desire healthy competition or not accept dirty tactics. Anyway I think we can agree to disagree. I view this as the poor wanting tax cuts for the rich, because one thinks they're part of the 1%.

Obviously, you can have any view you like, and desire any competition you like but companies aren't there to cater to those wanting maximum goods for minimum price. They're not social services. Individual companies might choose to be aggressive on price, but rarely will they do it if they know demand is likely to exceed supply .... until that demand that is prepared to pay a premium price has been satisfied. This behaviour is about as old in the tech world as, well, personal computers. Only if the market is highly competitive on day one will prices generally be priced at mass market because by doing so, all the company succeeds in doing is giving up the premium otherwise paid by those that can afford it, and will pay it to get in first.

Of course, there are always exceptions. The Co-op is generally an example of different motivation. But generally, expect to see companies pricing so as to maximise revenue. It's not "gouging" because, yes, none of us are "entitled" to buy their products. They set the price, and we decide to pay it or not. And like I said, sometimes companies price product, or simply restrict demand, for strategic reasons. It's not happening in this case, but regularly does in fashion houses, high-end watches, even in car models with deliberately limited runs of selected models. Sometimes, models come out later at lower prices. Sometimes not. If it's known they produce x cars of a desired model, and don't extend production, then either you pay the price to get one of the x, or someone else will. That way, they keep prices High and the models desirable by being limited. These are all both perfectly valid, and not uncommon strategies.

As for the poor wanting tax cuts for the rich, not the same thing at all.

[ik9000]

As for the poor wanting tax cuts for the rich, not the same thing at all.

I thought it was usually the rich wanting tax cuts for the rich citing that "trickle down effect" that we're all so definitely not seeing right now. Interesting to see a repeat of HIGNFY this week re the Cameron off-shore tax haven hypocrisy. The sooner that BS is dealt with the better IMO.

[Ttaskmaster]

First of all, If you're a PC gamer then you kind of need a GPU to play games on your PC, they know that so when they barely make enough stock that creates the higher "demand", none of this would happen if the stocks were normal.

If you're a PC gamer, you are choosing to be one.
No-one is making you game. No-one is forcing you to pay ridiculous prices. Furthermore, your life is not dependent upon owning a 3090Ti iCool Max Extreme Super Overclocking Turbo Power GPU.

I'm still using a 980. I'm three (and a half) generations behind the gamer curve, yet I am still able to game perfectly well in glorious 1440p at 144Hz... and I have only once ever paid full price for a premium gaming component.

My point was their angle is to keep the prices high and achieve avoiding the blame like you're logically doing now.

They aren't to blame, though... you are.
You pay the price they're asking, you enable their high prices, you facilitate their subsequent tactics.

If you're a gamer, you should realise this is just a game - They want your money. You are their little puppy and they're dangling a lovely slab of steak right in front of your nose, knowing full well you'll do any trick they can imagine to earn yourself a bite.
The only way to win is not to play.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Sadly too much feel "they have no choice" but to pay huge price hikes at each generation for tech,and then screw it all for the rest of us who won't. Then defend it at each generation - I don't give two flying figs about the "reasons" companies "have" to increase prices for - I only care about my situation,as I don't exist to prop up a foreign company. It's something I have seem ONLY on tech forums and social media - yet nowhere else do I see people defending big oil,food producers,big pharma,etc pushing prices up.

I also doubt their CEOs give two flying figs about you either. So stop giving two flying figs about them??

Many companies now seem to consider gamers as whales. They have an inability to show any resolve. I blame the whole situation of companies jacking up prices on consumers,exclusively. If companies thing you are weak mugs,they are going to treat you as one.

Eventually even people like me who refuse to be part of all this,will end up paying more for less(we get less and less for our money). This is because eventually stuff stops working,and even the secondhand market gets screwed up due to higher new prices. Its been a decent 20 years of being an enthusiast,but I think it's best to just walk away from it now. Maybe at some point the market will correct itself when all the cheap credit runs out.

However,OTH,I have also been spending more of my PC upgrade budget on other hobbies so if anything,at least in the short term its making me spend less on PC parts!

[ik9000]

Sadly too much feel "they have no choice" but to pay huge price hikes at each generation for tech,and then screw it all for the rest of us who won't. Many companies now seem to consider gamers as whales.

Eventually even people like me who refuse to be part of all this,will end up paying more for less(we get less and less for our money). This is because eventually stuff stops working,and even the secondhand market gets screwed up due to higher new prices.

However,OTH,I have also been spending more of my PC upgrade budget on other hobbies so if anything,at least in the short term its making me spend less on PC parts!

tell me about it! I just spec'd a system for someone and had to suggest a lowly GT1030 part for £70. It felt dirty and wrong...

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

tell me about it! I just spec'd a system for someone and had to suggest a lowly GT1030 part for £70. It felt dirty and wrong...

Is it for gaming? If its for video playback maybe one of the Intel parts with an IGP will be OK. IIRC,Intel does have better IGP support for H265 video playback than say a Ryzen 3 3200G or Ryzen 5 3400G.

[ik9000]

paired with 3300X. Main use is office and sound recording. It's the build you helped me spec a while back, they just procrastinated on making any decision through the last lockdown but are finally seeing the need as it's Black Friday week. Only other option bizarrely is what has come from what we were just talking about from that other thread with potentially one of these APU https://hexus.net/tech/news/cpu/1407...noir-examined/ looking around just now it appears gigabyte is on the verge of launching a product: https://www.anandtech.com/show/16265...n-4000u-renoir and Asus too: https://www.asus.com/us/Mini-PCs/Mini-PC-PN50/

[badass]

Bloody Ferrari, Mclaren and Lamborghini and their price gouging.

Did you know that you could get a baby Ferrari 355 for £70k new back in the late ninties? Now for your F8 Tributo, the base model is £200,000!
I'm angry at the lack of competition here. Even The Lambo Huracan is £180,000 for the most basic model!

Driving a car is ESSENTIAL! I need it to get to and from work as well you know.

Will someone think of us drivers!

Personally, since I formed the idea that a super car should be £70k I'm going to accuse every manufacturer that makes a faster, more powerful, more efficient newer model that charges more than my arbitrary number based on a point in time in the dim and distant past is blatantly gouging and I'm going to get ANGRY at them!!!!!!

[Saracen999]

Bloody Ferrari, Mclaren and Lamborghini and their price gouging.

Did you know that you could get a baby Ferrari 355 for £70k new back in the late ninties?....

News to me. I test drove one in, I think '97, and it was more like £105k, at Maranello. Mind you, that was a Spider (or was it Spyder, can never get that straight), but there's not that much difference. They even offered me a used but one-year old non-convertible model (about 2000 miles on the clock) at £95k but implied I might get it a smidge lower than that if I was willing to move very fast.

But overall, I take your point.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

News to me. I test drove one in, I think '97, and it was more like £105k, at Maranello. Mind you, that was a Spider (or was it Spyder, can never get that straight), but there's not that much difference. They even offered me a used but one-year old non-convertible model (about 2000 miles on the clock) at £95k but implied I might get it a smidge lower than that if I was willing to move very fast.

But overall, I take your point.

The fact is a CPU or GPU is essentially a commodity thing made in the millions. A Ferrari from the 1990s was sold in the mere 1000s,with specialised customer care,and has appreciated in value over time. The same as £20000 handmade watches.

The equivalent is if the latest Ford Focus,model for model,wan't up by 20% to 30% in price,and people pointed it out. Then someone,starts attacking the people for saying the price increase is high because they are a Ford fanboi. Or if the cost of gas went up by the same amount and people complained to the government,etc.

It shows you how much marketing and social media has had on hardware enthusiasts and gamers - they are literally repeating the same rubbish that Rollo and co were repeating on Hexus and elsewhere. Nvidia and other companies wanted to create value on commodity products by making them sound "exceptional" just like Apple does,and its the same level of marketing. These companies do psychological profiling increasingly to see the type of messages they can use to target those with weaker wills.

Rollo was paid via the marketing firm,AEG to go and sprout the same types of analogies,and he was laughed off many forums. But if he did it now....people might agree.

These people are so attached to gaming,etc its like some Stockholm Syndrome,or addiction that they need to find more and more absurd logic to justify it all. Then they start turning on others who see what is really happening. This sounds exactly like an alcoholic who is in denial.

In the end they become anti-consumerists who end up thinking that consumers serve the needs of companies,just like in Soviet Russia. You wanted a car,you only had a Lada,and was it any good?? Well tough luck,Lada held all the cards,as the consumer served the companies needs as a job sink.

This is why they hate any criticisms of the companies,and have "no choice". The companies can't do any wrong and they are "entitled" to expect better pricing. So they blame themselves and others for not being worthy enough. So end up "having" to pay the price.

Guess what?? Read what Rollo said again 10 years ago,and notice what messages he was saying. It was all about consumers blaming THEMSELVES for NOT paying more.

Nvidia understood marketing very well,just like Apple. It's about making sure you blame your inability to want to pay any price increases on the consumer. Rollo did it all the time 10 years ago.

This is why they get themselves into weird echo chambers which is reinforced by the internet.

Yet the market as a whole for most other things is price dependent. Because if you look at everything from phones,cars,watches etc worldwide most of the distribution is in the entry and middle parts.

Yet,historically for the last 50 years people also had NO problem complaining about price increases either,even to the extent of governments worldwide inacting laws,etc. People had no problem buying more cost effective alternatives - look at how Japan's car industry rose up.

People on tech forums don't like it because in the end they want to be in denial. They must buy,buy,buy at any cost and out their fingers in their ears go la!la!la! its all normal here.

No wonder tech companies are doing this - they have found the ideal set of consumers. If you were marketing for some of these big companies,and saw some of the price increase defence squad,why wouldn't you increase prices?

[badass]

<snip>

Guess what? Mainstream and and "value" cars have gone up by similar amounts. Compare the price of a new Ford focus in the late 90's (I forget if they replaced the Escort in the late 90's or early 00's) to one now. A Quick Google shows the lowest price is £22,000

I guess that debunks your "commodity" argument.

And please stop falsely conflating those that are explaining this is a result of basic economics are also happy to pay stupid money for a graphics card. Both me and Saracen have made clear multiple times that we haven't been upgrading to the latest RXTGX306800Super11111! Mega$$$$ card and have no plans to. I don't believe the majority on Hexus that have explained the economics have either.

[Saracen999]

The fact is a CPU or GPU is essentially a commodity thing made in the millions. A Ferrari from the 1990s was sold in the mere 1000s,with specialised customer care,and has appreciated in value over time. The same as £20000 handmade watches.

....

Not disagreeing with that, but my point is that companies are entitled to sell at what they think the market will bear. Sometimes, supply is deliberately restricted, like in items were production is deliberately held down. Sometimes, it's simply that production is maximised, short of installing whole new assembly lines. Sometimes, prices are exclusive because the cost of producing "hand-made" or "designer" goods is high. There's no doubt a complex set of reasons why a Rolls Royce is so expensive, including both the quality of materials, the degree of hand-crafted stuff and the fact that they are deliberately targeting a type of buyer that can afford it. The same blend of factors explains why Harrods carry a different stock range to Waitrose, who carry (with overlaps) a different range to a pound shop.

It's long been standard in the tech field that early adopters of cutting edge items pay a premium. Don't want to pay the premium, don't adopt early. I've certainly been prepared to pay it often enough over the years, but these days, I just wait.

And sometimes, for deliberately limited supply of items where demand is held down by deliberately keeping prices high, thereby limiting numbers of buyers, it's an overt strategy to target "exclusivity" not just for early adopters, but long term. I don't know about today, but BMW used to set limited production runs of M-series, and when they'd sold them, no more were made until the next year, or even next model version. Other companies, be it suppliers or manufacturers, set price according to supply v demand even if it isn't deliberate. It's just how the world works, and it applies to all sorts of things from artworks to sunglasses, and watches to Aston Martins or Ferraris.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Guess what? Mainstream and and "value" cars have gone up by similar amounts. Compare the price of a new Ford focus in the late 90's (I forget if they replaced the Escort in the late 90's or early 00's) to one now. A Quick Google shows the lowest price is £22,000

I guess that debunks your "commodity" argument.

And please stop falsely conflating those that are explaining this is a result of basic economics are also happy to pay stupid money for a graphics card. Both me and Saracen have made clear multiple times that we haven't been upgrading to the latest RXTGX306800Super11111! Mega$$$$ card and have no plans to. I don't believe the majority on Hexus that have explained the economics have either.

No I am not going to stop as you almost sound like a marketeer,just pushing out weak arguments almost justifying price increases. You are trying to compare a CPU which is a commodity product,and some of these products have increased by 20% in ONE generation in price. Almost the entire Intel CPU lineup are laptop CPUs,rejigged to desktop with the same dies. They sell more of those in laptops,than desktops. People for years justified Intel pricing whilst they deep discounted them for OEMs.

Yet,you are making some absurd argument about 25 years ago when you know very well people are not making that argument. Using your argument maybe aluminium is too cheap,because it was worth more than gold 200 years ago?

You sound very much like Rollo,with your information and trying to normalise price increases way above inflation. Another excuse where companies can do no wrong and no criticism can be afforded. This is not Soviet Russia where people had to keep quiet and accept any overpriced consumer crap because there is no choice. If people are so desperate to pay more,then go and send them some extra money - I am sure they would like it.

It seems to be you are not happy when people try to justify paying less for PC hardware,which is weird - nobody stopping you paying more! Why are you loosing out if people pay less? Why are you loosing out if people don't buy?

Nothing has been debunked - the only debunking is your justification so you feel OK about it.

Not disagreeing with that, but my point is that companies are entitled to sell at what they think the market will bear. Sometimes, supply is deliberately restricted, like in items were production is deliberately held down. Sometimes, it's simply that production is maximised, short of installing whole new assembly lines. Sometimes, prices are exclusive because the cost of producing "hand-made" or "designer" goods is high. There's no doubt a complex set of reasons why a Rolls Royce is so expensive, including both the quality of materials, the degree of hand-crafted stuff and the fact that they are deliberately targeting a type of buyer that can afford it. The same blend of factors explains why Harrods carry a different stock range to Waitrose, who carry (with overlaps) a different range to a pound shop.

It's long been standard in the tech field that early adopters of cutting edge items pay a premium. Don't want to pay the premium, don't adopt early. I've certainly been prepared to pay it often enough over the years, but these days, I just wait.

And sometimes, for deliberately limited supply of items where demand is held down by deliberately keeping prices high, thereby limiting numbers of buyers, it's an overt strategy to target "exclusivity" not just for early adopters, but long term. I don't know about today, but BMW used to set limited production runs of M-series, and when they'd sold them, no more were made until the next year, or even next model version. Other companies, be it suppliers or manufacturers, set price according to supply v demand even if it isn't deliberate. It's just how the world works, and it applies to all sorts of things from artworks to sunglasses, and watches to Aston Martins or Ferraris.

For completed products,not so much for certain PC components especially as you are seeing price escalation and tierisation even on entry level and mainstream products. It's something you notice if frequently you have to help out with builds,especially over time,and it builds up over generations. Its getting worse and worse,especially as people don't seem to realise companies are hiding some of it,via mucking around with the naming of stuff.

The point is understood,but what I don't understand is people on forums getting defensive when people point out the products are probably too highly priced relative to what is already there. You are sometimes talking about significant price increases generation to generation and more often than lot,some defenders now always come on forums justifying it. This is not comment on what you are saying,but more a general thing I have seen on the increase in the last few years.

So are people so scared of offending companies because of this?? Do they think if they shut up,those companies will reward with loyalty points??

Consumers need to realise the ultimate power is in their hands. Too many forums(and social media) seem to be trying to spin the power is in the hands of companies trying to sell us products. Seriously,WTF??

[ik9000]

who's Rollo?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Nvidia from 2004 onwards at least ran a hidden marketing campaign called the Nvidia Focus Group. It was then discovered and Nvidia quietly said it was basically a program for hardware enthusiasts who happened to be on huge tech forums(and sprout a ton of pro-Nvidia stuff) were given free hardware to assess. But it was existing for years before Nvidia owned up.I would take some time to read this thread:
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/n...utreach.24489/

It really opens your eyes,especially with some of the stuff and terms you see commonly sprouted today.

Now,lets see what Rollo used to say on top of his normal "Nvidia is the bestest" thing 10~11 years ago,and he was much better behaved on Hexus then on other places he posted on. He had been pushed out of several forums in previous years.

There were a few others who were exposed which read from a similar script. But it certainly existed as a markeing thing before it was officially announced,and as far back as 2004,5 years before Hexus.

You can't link to me saying I'm "better" than anyone. I can't help how it makes you feel when someone says $1000 isn't unreasonable for a piece of hobby equipment, but you shouldn't put words in others mouths.

Like it or not, the $1000 that is "a lot" to you, a "fair price" to me, is "pocket change" and "tip money" to others.

Is any of us "right", or "better"?

Not in my opinion, just a difference of opinion, and/or place in the consumer market.

This sort of thing always amazes me, why do people talk about spending relatively small amounts of money as if the buyer were making a bonfire of hundred dollar bills in the backyard?

What if the buyer has double the median household income for his/her area coming into the coffers because they've worked hard? Triple? Quadruple? Quintuple? You're going to begrudge them spending $1000 on a chip or monitor they get enjoyment from in their free time because cheaper models are available?

You never want to go shopping with me, it will anger you.

I'm a Republican who believes in laissez faire capitalism, so I'm sickened by the current trend of govt bailouts, increased perception there is some "cosmic justice" that should be legislated, govt ownership of business, increased taxation, and redistribution of wealth in general.

I suppose in some perfect world where things don't cost money you have a point.

In the one we live in there will be vendor specific features as long as companies are willing to invest in developing their marketshare.

You "laugh" at people who buy nice things? Interesting coping mechanism.


..................

NVIDIA is making millions, while AMD loses millions, and NVIDIA has no debt. (compared to AMD's $5 billion in debt)

$20 a year is "no difference" to me-$20 is change?.

You: Post about video cards, get callouses on your fingertips.

Me: Post about video cards, get the callouses, plus free hardware and software, press privileges and access to industry insiders.

Tough call on who's having more fun with the posting about video cards. I mean, you do get the same callouses.

The thing is, we need some high priced cards at launch to pay for R&D and dev relations.

Those cards lead to much cheaper alternatives for the mainstream, like the high power 4850X2 cards or 4850 CF configs that offer huge bang for buck, or the GTX260C216 SLi configs. (or for that matter 9800GTX+ 3 way)

There needs to be a balance- a mix of high end cards the rich spend big bucks on, with more affordable alternatives. If the whole market goes <$200USD, we may as well go console. The experience won't be all that different.

I am unfamiliar with your pricing and availability, of course.

See how he talks about pricing and money?? How its the "users fault" for not affording higher prices. How lower prices were "bad" and so on.

He also dialed down on Hexus - it was worse on other places! People are sprouting similar points and justifications NOW,but back then you rarely saw those kinds of points being mentioned. If anything if you look back at the threads,most people got into massive arguments with him on those points I quoted.

I even told one of the mods on here,when he joined to just be a bit weary!

[ik9000]

I have seen those exact comments recently on another forum. Makes you think...