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Thread: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    see i re-read your post and found that you listed about 4 game services. Yet apart from D2D i hadn't heard of any, and THAT is an issue. Good service available without good marketing means its not gonna help

    Dvd rental is fine and i use it all the time, my grumbling is tv shows.

    BRING US HULU!

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    I suspect you are confusing entering at #3 with great sales. It says something about the state of the PC market that you can get to that position without terribly strong sales. The experience of legitimate users for that game was also hampered massively because of all the pirate copies trying to get on the servers.
    I think you missed the point... The issue I was highlighting was not that demigod sold well it was that piracy did not effect demigod to such a degree that it crippled the revenue produced by the game like some companies want us to believe. Piracy does impact games but it does not reduce or diminish sales and thus revenue the game produces. So my point is that preventing piracy to benefit companies and copyright holders is false because it won't benefit them. I believe focusing on stopping piracy will only make things worse for companies as was the case for Crytek.

    Other companies(Stardock/GPG/Valve/Blizzard/Bethesda) listening to customers and providing reasonable content at a good price in a manner that benefits customers(not a way that prevents piracy) provides them with great product returns and at the same time satisfies their customers.

    Quote Originally Posted by usxhe190 View Post
    No matter whether you are for or against P2P sharing (i.e. old vs new industry etc), everyone must admit that this will have ZERO effect on "illegal" P2P sharing right?

    This is just the government positioning itself on the blindingly obvious - i.e. "illegal p2p = bad! get ISP to irradicate! Government looks good now!"

    But actually having to implement this will just be a big ?.

    If the government can stop illegal P2P sharing, I would be very surprised.

    Government has a better chance eradicating poverty than illegal P2P.
    So true, and money spent on an actual problem which effects the rest of the world would be much better than wasting it on the impossible task of monitoring internet traffic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthran View Post
    You know what Kalniel, i dont think we are actually arguing different sides here.

    Your completely correct in saying that we need to pay for content we use to drive innovation.
    BUT and this is the big BUT, in my oppinion: File sharing is NOT the problem here.

    Freeloaders will always be freeloaders. But the reason filesharing has become such an issue is not because everybody is a freeloader. Its simply because the technology and market have changed in such a way that instant access to media is possible and is what people expect, but the industries HAVEN'T. Remember pre-iTunes, if you wanted music fast you downloaded it, iTunes came and BANG, a large portion of your average internet users moved to services like iTunes because they were organised, decent and trustworthy.

    The problem imo is simply that industries are trying to stick to the old ways rather than catch up with technology and provide the market with what it wants. The market wants fast easy access to media, and illegality is the main option at the moment. The moment webstreaming comes over here and other such services appear and are easy and cheap, a large portion of your illegal sharers will move over to that system.

    The issue isn't that people aren't paying for content which is hurting innovation, its that the content isn't being provided to people in a way they are happy to pay for.
    I totally agree.

    I would love to have a good old rant about rubbsh TV services and what not but you pretty much summed up the problem perfectly. Piracy is not the problem it's companies and organisations stuck in old habits and bad business ideas that produce the problem they have.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    1. This will not work (be fair when did this govt ever understand computing) - simple technique would be encrypted files and anonomysing (or however you spell that word) proxy servers. Of course govt has already power to require encryption keys to be handed over so maybe you would need to embed encryption into some other file (photographs would be simple)

    2. Lets suppose ISP sends me a letter saying I have downloaded illegally - it is factually wrong, so presumeably I cannot now sue the rights owner and ISP for wrongful harrassment - probably defamation

    3. As a lawful user why the heck should I be paying for this - if ISP has to share the costs with the rights owners all this means is that the ISP will up its charges.

    4. If the content industry keeps putting DRM on content I will keep trying to break. DVDs with regional encoding still exist (particularly if you buy in US) - I simply rip them to HD and they play fine but cannot use them in my DVD player, I also transfer them to my PSP (great for long car journeys)

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by ExHail View Post
    I think you missed the point... The issue I was highlighting was not that demigod sold well it was that piracy did not effect demigod to such a degree that it crippled the revenue produced by the game like some companies want us to believe. Piracy does impact games but it does not reduce or diminish sales and thus revenue the game produces.


    Other companies(Stardock/GPG/Valve/Blizzard/Bethesda) listening to customers and providing reasonable content at a good price in a manner that benefits customers(not a way that prevents piracy) provides them with great product returns
    But it's not though, you're missing my point - which was all this listening to customers and so on is not doing enough. Why are GPG, Valve, Blizzard and Bethesda putting out games on consoles that they originally wanted to put on PC? Because piracy of their games on PC affects their sales so badly they have to turn to the console market to fund their continued development.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Because piracy of their games on PC affects their sales so badly they have to turn to the console market to fund their continued development.
    I have to admit these days consoles from a customer point of view are getting tempting, you can have one of those, and a cheap PC for internet and wordprocessing for much less than a high end PC and the difference you can then spend on overpriced console games. Console games used to be cut down versions, this is not the case any more. I do wonder if the introduction of netbooks spells the end of PC gaming, as the pool of people with high end kit shrinks. The other advantage of a console, is the hardware spec works for the lifetime of the product, PCs don't.

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    Thumbs down Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by oolon View Post
    Personally, I cannot wait for a new government! Nothing I would like better than to see that smug grin wiped off Brown's face. Lets face it though what ever government we do get will rapidly forget the "people" elected them so setting policies the majority of people like, rather than a small group of lobbyist for vested interests think.
    ... and you really think that the Tories will change this? After all, they themselves claim to be 'the party of business' so all a change means different names, same policies. What I don't understand is how the Dark Lord (Mandelson-of-a-bitch) gets the cojones to basically walk all over the rest of the cabinet. After all, it was widely reported (in The Register and elsewhere) that another minister had already said no to this selfsame idea. And last week he did the same to someone else. I've got to wonder (given that he didn't say a dickie bird until he'd [presumably] been "briefed" by a record industry exec) what the going rate is for an "intervention" from him?

    Anyway, invective aside - how to stop file sharing? I'm not sure you can stop it, because there'll always be technical measures - like encryption and proxying - that'll make it difficult/impossible to track down the small "mom-and-pop" filesharers. In which case surely it'd make more sense to chase the ones using the filesharing for commercial gain.

    On the other hand, the selfsame media industry makes it bloody difficult to legally use your expensive content - DVD's (and BluRay) with all kinds of fancy anti-copying measures (which basically do squat for the commercial conmen, but do neatly stop Joe Public making a backup or transferring to their iPod etc); CD's with "enhancements" that work similarly (yes, I am looking at you Sony!); PC games with such fierce "IP protection" measures that it's a lottery whether they'll work consistently on your PC.

    On the other hand there's plain old CD's that just work (and transfer nicely to my iPod so I can listen to them on the train); reasonably priced MP3 albums (e.g. I know the music isn't to everyone's taste but Eurovision albums are unprotected MP3's of good quality for a non-unreasonable price); Steam distribution of games. But the media businesses just aren't interested in being reasonable, are they?

    Making ISP's reasonable for this kind of policing is just ridiculous - are housebuilders or estate agents going to be held responsible for the misdemeanour's of the chav's that move into their houses; are pub owners going to be thrown in the nick if a drunk driver kills someone (apologies for that analogy); are airlines to be held responsible for the spread of swine flu?

    It's all just hot air and nonsense...

    Career status: still enjoying my new career in DevOps, but it's keeping me busy...

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Why are GPG, Valve, Blizzard and Bethesda putting out games on consoles that they originally wanted to put on PC? Because piracy of their games on PC affects their sales so badly they have to turn to the console market to fund their continued development.
    Except they aren't.
    Show me 1 game from Blizzard that is going console only?
    Or Valve for that matter.

    The fact is that in reality these games designers are all pc old boys, and are now looking at consoles and realising the profit potential there, so are doing games for BOTH!
    Piracy for consoles is rife, in fact its worse, because thats proper underground copying and others are profiting from these designers work. Rather than pc game piracy, which has got allot harder recently.

    I mean, without being rude. To make your point you quoted Blizzard, who haven't made a dedicated console game in their life (im talking full on console game, not the 3 dwarf thingy ), Blizzard who have one of the highest revenue streams of all games developers coming from a PC only game.
    There's piracy in wow (private servers), yet Blizzard don't care because they simply make their game even better and people come back to play the real thing.

    Name me a Bethesda Console only release.

    The fact is that whilst the lobbyists may try to tell us all the game piracy is the end of the world as we know it. Its obvious that people will pirate crap games or will pirate games that are "unpiratable" (hell, look at spore. Everybody said the drm was so tight it couldn't be pirated. It didn't sell well because so many gamers deliberately showed EA they was wrong), But if you want to make money in the PC gaming market; Simply make better game and people WILL pay.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers


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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthran View Post
    Except they aren't.
    Show me 1 game from Blizzard that is going console only?
    Or Valve for that matter.
    I never said anything about going console only - they're simply releasing games on the console to fund development - the PC versions can then be released but will neccessarily be limited in how much exclusive development they can get compared to the console versions.

    The fact is that in reality these games designers are all pc old boys, and are now looking at consoles and realising the profit potential there, so are doing games for BOTH!
    The fact is that in reality the PC market doesn't general enough profit, despite the much wider potential player base, so they have to release games on consoles to fund the development of AAA titles. They would rather not have to develop with the restrictions of consoles in mind, but they're forced to, and as a result there is a limited amount of time/money they can spend on PC exclusive features, which is a shame given the technological differences.

    Piracy for consoles is rife, in fact its worse, because thats proper underground copying and others are profiting from these designers work. Rather than pc game piracy, which has got allot harder recently.
    No really, it's not worse than PC game piracy, it's not even of the same magnitude. Yes there's more profit in it for the criminal underground, but the numbers of people pirating are so much smaller than on the PC.

    I mean, without being rude. To make your point you quoted Blizzard, who haven't made a dedicated console game in their life (im talking full on console game, not the 3 dwarf thingy ), Blizzard who have one of the highest revenue streams of all games developers coming from a PC only game.
    There's piracy in wow (private servers), yet Blizzard don't care because they simply make their game even better and people come back to play the real thing.
    Again I'm not talking about console only games. Blizzard are probably going to make a console version of Diablo III. But you're right - there are two subscription based MMOs that generate even income from the playerbase that they can ignore the effects of piracy. Just like there are indy games whose development costs are so low that they can also ignore the effects of piracy. But it's sad that the traditional AAA single player game has jumped off the platform because of piracy.

    The fact is that whilst the lobbyists may try to tell us all the game piracy is the end of the world as we know it. Its obvious that people will pirate crap games or will pirate games that are "unpiratable" (hell, look at spore. Everybody said the drm was so tight it couldn't be pirated. It didn't sell well because so many gamers deliberately showed EA they was wrong), But if you want to make money in the PC gaming market; Simply make better game and people WILL pay.
    That just isn't true - the better a game is the more it gets pirated. The crap game arguement has never held up to any level of scrutiny (if it's crap then why waste your life playing it?), it's just another cheap excuse, along with objections to DRM, price, company morals whatever. They might all be reasons people try to justify piracy to themselves, but you take them away and they continue to pirate.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    I never said anything about going console only - they're simply releasing games on the console to fund development - the PC versions can then be released but will neccessarily be limited in how much exclusive development they can get compared to the console versions.

    The fact is that in reality the PC market doesn't general enough profit, despite the much wider potential player base, so they have to release games on consoles to fund the development of AAA titles. They would rather not have to develop with the restrictions of consoles in mind, but they're forced to, and as a result there is a limited amount of time/money they can spend on PC exclusive features, which is a shame given the technological differences.
    To be honest, i think your mistaking business's learning to profit from both markets at once, with business's being forced to go to consoles because of piracy.

    The console market is bigger than the pc gaming market. Ask anybody 16 or under (huge market share in that category). Consoles are cheaper to develop on (there's only 1 ps3, there's hundreds of driver/hardware options on a pc), plus newer games require alot more from a pc than the average person has. Dont take Hexus users as a market example, us with decent pc's and high end gfx are a rarity in the larger market. consoles are not.

    Consoles are where the money is for developers, having seen first hand the younger generation with consoles compared to my generation (24!) who have an income. The younger generation buys 5times the games we do, and 4 out of 5 are console games.

    So the reason that big companies are going to consoles as well as PC is simply there's more money in it, not that they HAVE TO due to Piracy.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Why did you go to see them if they were rubbish? Read the reviews and don't see a film if you think it's going to be bad - that will send a message much stronger than pirating something.
    Because the reviews said they were good. Stop being so full of yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Don't you think that by setting itself against piracy the govt is helping independants? If the market turns into bland, spew out content of any quality because the link between quality/innovation and people paying for that content is broken, market then it will be taken over by big corporations or govt. run groups rather than independants.
    No. The problem with independent films like Moon is that they are only shown a few places around the country and there is not even an online pay per view service to watch it. The lack of a pay per view service on the internet means that many people will end up pirating this film. My view is that cinema,DVD and internet pay per view releases for a film should be simultaneous released and sensibly priced so that there is NO excuse for piracy on the grounds of availability and cost.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 26-08-2009 at 09:47 AM.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthran View Post
    The console market is bigger than the pc gaming market.
    Actually it's not - there are about 250 million PCs used for gaming out there.

    Consoles are where the money is for developers, having seen first hand the younger generation with consoles compared to my generation (24!) who have an income. The younger generation buys 5times the games we do, and 4 out of 5 are console games.
    The average gamer age is 35, I've not seen anything comparing spending power though so you could be right there. However, you're right that console games sell more.. because of piracy on the PC. More people are playing PC games, it's just the majority haven't paid for them.

    So the reason that big companies are going to consoles as well as PC is simply there's more money in it, not that they HAVE TO due to Piracy.
    Piracy is the reason there's more money in consoles, and at the end of the day they do HAVE TO if they want a AAA game budget - otherwise like I said small budget games are fine for the PC market. Alternatively if you can extract a much larger amount of money per player than traditional (MMOs) then you're fine on PC as well.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Actually it's not - there are about 250 million PCs used for gaming out there.
    Except the distinction is thus:
    250million PC's for gaming, with graphics cards ranging from a geforce 4 to a 295. how many millions of them can actually play brand new AAA games at high settings?

    Now, how many xbox 360's can play brand new AAA games at high settings...

    oh yeah... ALL OF THEM!

    Thats why the console market is bigger. because the true figure of gaming pc's able to play the new games is a far smaller %


    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    The average gamer age is 35,
    So some random new report says, except ofc i've not seen the full results or their methods, i dont quite subscribe to the theory personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    I've not seen anything comparing spending power though so you could be right there. However, you're right that console games sell more.. because of piracy on the PC. More people are playing PC games, it's just the majority haven't paid for them.
    There you go again, instead of coming up with facts, figures or strong arguments you just say:
    "people pirate more on the PC, its killing the industry, thats why people buy more console games!!!"

    Its really not though, i would believe you with sufficient evidence. But from personal experience i've come to realise that a PC and a console gamer wants different things, and the market is in console gaming. I've seen the same game released for PC and console, found the console version to be poor compaired to the PC version. yet the console version sells far higher because of so many factors:
    • Consoles have stronger marketting
    • the intrinsic nature of the networking and communication in console users compared to the fragmented userbase in pc's means word of mouth sells so many more copies
    • DLC on the xbox is FAR FAR easier than on the PC



    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Piracy is the reason there's more money in consoles, and at the end of the day they do HAVE TO if they want a AAA game budget - otherwise like I said small budget games are fine for the PC market.
    I have still yet to see evidence that Piracy in PC gaming is killing the industry and pushing the money to console gaming. The average Joe would simply rather buy a console game, play on his HD tv whilst sitting on his comfy sofa. The days of PC gaming being mainflight are dying due to strong innovation in the console market.
    If your most profitable market (and lets be honest, console manufacturers will subsidise developers to make a game just for their platform as well) is consoles, then thats where you will focus your AAA development.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    My view is that cinema,DVD and internet pay per view releases for a film should be simultaneous released and sensibly priced so that there is NO excuse for piracy on the grounds of availability and cost.
    The fact that there is many many months between cinema release and dvd has always been a cause for piracy, steadycams and screeners. Those who cant/wont go to the cinema but dont want to wait all those months. Global dvd/cinema/internet release at once would boost profits no end, yes some people who would have gone cinema would buy instead, but all the new release hype allows the studio's to funnel that hype into more dvd sales!

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthran View Post
    I have still yet to see evidence that Piracy in PC gaming is killing the industry and pushing the money to console gaming. The average Joe would simply rather buy a console game, play on his HD tv whilst sitting on his comfy sofa. The days of PC gaming being mainflight are dying due to strong innovation in the console market.
    If your most profitable market (and lets be honest, console manufacturers will subsidise developers to make a game just for their platform as well) is consoles, then thats where you will focus your AAA development.
    I would also like to add this - a lot of PC gamers I have known have gone over to consoles since they are fed up of always having to upgrading their PCs or having to muck around with software drivers or patches for their games.They only have to buy a console once every 4 to 5 years or so too.

    For the average person who knows very little about computers the fact that you can just plonk in a disc and play a game in a console is much more convenient.

    Also consoles games are just better suited towards co-ep action which is great for when there are friends around.

    If anything development among multiple platforms has been good for PC games as it has meant costs have been spread out.

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    Re: News - Government can’t wait to start punishing file-sharers

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    For the average person who knows very little about computers the fact that you can just plonk in a disc and play a game in a console is much more convenient.
    Exactly, from what i have seen, the reason development money has moved to the console market, is because thats where the gamers have been moving.

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