News - AMD exec says NVIDIA neglecting gamers

[Lars Weinand]

Hi,

it's an interresting opinion from Mr. Huddy but it's definately not true that NVIDIA is abandoning the gaming market. What Mr. Huddy describes is what is commonly known as "growth". We are on the route to GPU computing since the introduction of our CUDA architecture with GeForce 8000 series. Our leadership in GPU computing allows us to adress additional markets. GeForce 8800GTX was a very popular and successful gaming card and so are our current generation GPUs. Our next generation solution will follow in that tradion: for games with full DirectX 11, 3DVision and PhysX Support as well as GPU computing with support for OpenCL, Direct Compute, Cuda C, Cuda C++ and more. We also fully support all new technologies, like GPU support for Bullet Physics engine. Bullet is running on CUDA for over a year and is using many open source GPU algorithms from our CUDA and OpenCL SDKs.

Technologies like 3D Vision and PhysX are unique features and technologies made by gamers for gamers and we're not intending to change this. Our Devtech team is working closely with game develeopers all over the world, to ensure best support and compatibility of our GPUs for the latest games. If you're interrested to hear more on how NVIDIA works with game delvelopers, please feel free to watch the latest comments from Tony Tamasi on this topic.
blogs.nvidia.com/nTersect

There is no reason to belive NVIDIA would abandon gamers. People working at NVIDIA are gamers.

Lars Weinand (NVIDIA)

[shaithis]

nVidia will never leave the gamers, as long as they are making money from the sector. They are a business after all.

Now, whether they have "dropped the ball" or not, I guess only time will tell.....they do not have long to release the 3xx series before the press start claiming impending doom.

[Perfectionist]

will be going with nvidia card(s) this time - much as I am not interested in brand names and despise pandering to a monopoly - I got pretty sick of games developers choosing to support Nvidia to more of an extent than ATI with all the "way it's meant to be played" anti-competitive BS which, I think if gaming was more mainstream the government would care enough to squeeze the same way Microsoft have been.)

As an NVIDIA fanboy, I'm rediculously excited to see what insues

(sic)

ROFL! You have me rolling on the floor dude. You sound like AMD is paying you in blowjobs to post this stuff LOL.

Since changed my mind due to the poor performance of current nvidia cards, cretins like this boy don't help to inspire faith.

[Mark@SCAN]

I wouldn't agree that Nvidia are abandoning the gaming market, we recently held an event here @ SCAN computers with help from Nvidia where we were showing lots of 3DVision technology which is aimed primarly at the gaming market.

There is also the TWIMTBP programme with games like Batman Arkham Asylum..which is great by the way! that I don't think would be as good as they are without TWIMTBP.

Kudos to ATI/AMD for being the first to introduce DX11 card's but I don't think that just because Nvidia doesn't have competing technology yet we can say they are abandoning the gaming market.

[Percy1983]

Lets be honest ATI had the first DX10 cards, but Nvidia couldn't meet the deadline and the DX10 profile was actually changed to suit them (and the old DX10 became DX10.1)

For me its been simple for quite a while, Nvidia may have had the top end cards, but ATI offered better vlaue where it matters to most of us.

[Biscuit]

I dont think that he is suggesting that Nvidia is abandoning gamers in its literal sense, i think what he is saying is that their focus has shifted somewhat towards GPGPU which has put the importance of gamers on the backburner.

but it appears NVIDIA is in a kind of sneering mode towards game players at the moment

when i was reading the bits and bobs from the Nvidia show a few weeks ago this was the exact impression i got from it.

[Syllopsium]

Really can't see Nvidia abandoning the gaming community soon.

Still, I'm a bit surprised at their strategy. Obviously the GT300 still isn't on the horizon, but they are proving the ground with their 40nm DX10.1 parts. The surprising part is that they're so slow - the upcoming GT240 has no performance gain over the 9600GT.

ATI have the best hardware out, but appear to be floundering a bit with the 5xxx series drivers in Windows 7. Nvidia's drivers appear to be (mostly) solid. If it's going to take ATI a month or two to iron the drivers out properly (possible) then xmas time is going to be very interesting GPU wise.

[shaithis]

It's not as if we can expect nVidia to sort their drivers out any faster then AMD. It is always the way when a new architecture is released.

[aidanjt]

One problem with the PC gaming market is that the developer then has to support thousands of different hardware combinations - whereas with consoles it is always a standard setup. Such diversity is not always a good thing.

Nonsense, Windows provides pseudo-standard APIs for developing games (DirectX, WinAPI/MFC/.Net, etc), you don't need to touch the hardware in the application code, nor should you. Using vendor specific hardware code in software is just retarded. A game developed in DirectX requires very little effort to make it run on the XBox 360, too, so again, hardly an excuse to hide behind. The only gaming platform which is truely a PITA to develop for is the PS3 (DirectX engines need ported to OpenGL/PS3 system libs, Cell is a nightmare to code for, etc.).

[Syllopsium]

Nonsense, Windows provides pseudo-standard APIs for developing games (DirectX, WinAPI/MFC/.Net, etc), you don't need to touch the hardware in the application code, nor should you. Using vendor specific hardware code in software is just retarded. A game developed in DirectX requires very little effort to make it run on the XBox 360, too, so again, hardly an excuse to hide behind. The only gaming platform which is truely a PITA to develop for is the PS3 (DirectX engines need ported to OpenGL/PS3 system libs, Cell is a nightmare to code for, etc.).

This. As soon as Nvidia pulls out its finger and gets DX11 implemented everywhere the days of horrid DirectX9 manufacturer specific code paths should be at an end (or at least reduced). Application developers no longer need to worry about hardware.

Even if you take the ATI and Nvidia optimisations for DirectX 9 games into account, it's a lot better than the days of having to write for Glide and other proprietary stuff or worse - writing your own software renderer.

Driver writers, on the other hand, have as many (if not more) hassles than they used to as far as I can see. At least they've been dragged kicking and screaming to support 64 bit though.

PK

[YYZ]

Now why on earth would nvidia abandon gaming?
The fact Huddy states something like that is because ofthe problems TSMC is having with the 40nm process.
ATI was the first to bring out its dx11 cards but now they're stuck,rumor has it that they only sold 20,000 cards in a month.
Although it remains doubtful behaviour from any company's executive.
A precedent?
Who knows.

[RichardHuddy]

Hi Lars,

Nice to hear something positive about DirectX 11 from NVIDIA for once!

Hi,

it's an interresting opinion from Mr. Huddy but it's definately not true that NVIDIA is abandoning the gaming market. What Mr. Huddy describes is what is commonly known as "growth". We are on the route to GPU computing since the introduction of our CUDA architecture with GeForce 8000 series. Our leadership in GPU computing allows us to adress additional markets. GeForce 8800GTX was a very popular and successful gaming card and so are our current generation GPUs. Our next generation solution will follow in that tradion: for games with full DirectX 11, 3DVision and PhysX Support as well as GPU computing with support for OpenCL, Direct Compute, Cuda C, Cuda C++ and more. We also fully support all new technologies, like GPU support for Bullet Physics engine. Bullet is running on CUDA for over a year and is using many open source GPU algorithms from our CUDA and OpenCL SDKs.

Technologies like 3D Vision and PhysX are unique features and technologies made by gamers for gamers and we're not intending to change this. Our Devtech team is working closely with game develeopers all over the world, to ensure best support and compatibility of our GPUs for the latest games. If you're interrested to hear more on how NVIDIA works with game delvelopers, please feel free to watch the latest comments from Tony Tamasi on this topic.
blogs.nvidia.com/nTersect

There is no reason to belive NVIDIA would abandon gamers. People working at NVIDIA are gamers.

Lars Weinand (NVIDIA)

Let me respond to those sections in turn.

(1) The positive mention of DX11 is a rarity in recent communications from NVIDIA - except perhaps in their messaging that 'DirectX 11 doesn't matter'. For example I don't remember Jensen or others mentioning tessellation (they biggest of the new hardware features) from the stage at GTC. In fact if reports are to be trusted only one game was shown on stage during the whole conference - hardly what I would call treating gaming as a priority!

(2) The tech of PhysX has still yet to gain any significant traction. I note from the most recent NPD sales figures that "Batman AA" figures at 96th place in the PC charts and yet that seems to be NVIDIA's ' showcase' for PhysX. I suspect gaming physics will be better adopted when as an industry we move away from the divisive proprietary standards that Lars advocates so heavily. [I note that you mentioned CUDA no fewer than five times - more than any other technology that you chose to mention!]

(3) There's every reason to believe that NVIDIA is moving its focus away from gaming. I'll list just a few:

• Not making it a priority at GTC is the obvious one.
• Arguing against the relevance of DX11 is another.
• Arguing, as NVIDIA did, that AMD working with Codemasters to add DX11 to DiRT2 is harming gamers is another.
• NVIDIA's behaviour in locking something as trivial as antialiasing to its own hardware (in Batman Arkham Asylum) shows that NVIDIA cares much more about money then gamers.
• AMD is already working with games developers on over 20 forthcoming games which feature DX11 tech. NVIDIA has been nowhere to be seen! And we're doing that while offering the world's best support for DirectX 9, 10 and 10.1 games too!
• NVIDIA is late to deliver DirectX 11 hardware to market.

If you don't agree with my fourth bullet point above then I'd guess you'd probably argue that AMD should lock DX11 functionality to its own hardware, yes? Something we haven't done!

You talk about your purported "leadership in GPU computing" but today that's simply an empty claim.

Ask yourself these questions:

1. Whose is the world's fastest available gaming GPU?
   
2. Which is the first and only company selling DirectX 11 GPUs?
   
3. Which company sells the GPU with the highest compute power?

I think if you look at the facts you'll have to concede that GPU leadership is presently AMD's - because the answer to every one of these questions is simply "AMD".


Richard Huddy [Graphics Developer Relations, AMD]

[aidanjt]

Aye, and as far as DirectX 11 'not mattering', DirectCompute support should surely be an important reason for supporting DX11, even if your focus is steering towards the GPGPU end of things. Unless, of course, you're only interested in pushing your propitiatory API (which, tbh, is quite ugly). The sooner OpenCL/DirectCompute hits mainstream, the better.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

There is only one way to find out whether AMD or Nvidia are right!!

You guessed it!!

[Syllopsium]

Aye, and as far as DirectX 11 'not mattering', DirectCompute support should surely be an important reason for supporting DX11, even if your focus is steering towards the GPGPU end of things. Unless, of course, you're only interested in pushing your propitiatory API (which, tbh, is quite ugly). The sooner OpenCL/DirectCompute hits mainstream, the better.

Nvidia may be lacking DirectX11 at the moment, but as far as OpenCL goes they've now got a beta release out supporting OpenCL on all 8 series cards or later.

Now, if only they could stop the idiocy of PhysX things might improve a little..

PK

[Perfectionist]

I love this thread, I think it's the first time I've actually seen two corporations have a reasonable debate as real people outside a boardroom rather than just firing off grandstanding propaganda-like press releases in a game of verbal Battleship (which end-users with a little common sense don't take too seriously)

In fact, people should digg and otherwise advertise forums.hexus.net/hexus-net/174266-thread.html - lets get it all out in the open