News - Second-hand gaming cost Heavy Rain one million sales

[Unique]

So should the media industry go after Ebay and stores like CEX as they sell loads of secondhand DVDs,Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs,CDs,SACDs,DVD-Audio discs and records??

What about all the sales of films and tv shows lost though people taping them?? The same goes with music. You could argue that film,tv and music companies have potentially lost tens of billions or even hundreds of billions of dollars in the last 40 years.

Should car companies stop secondhand sales of cars? After all they have spent billions of dollars developing new models,so why should they allow secondhand sales?? On top of this maybe they should close down independent garages too as it means less of the servicing and repair money goes to the original manufacturer too. Every penny counts as we are now in a recession and new car sales are down.

On top of this one has to ask the question why there are "so many" copies of a relatively new game are available secondhand soon after launch.

If you cannot produce content that people are willing to pay for full price in the first place it either means you are producing rubbish content,overpriced content or content which has a very short lifespan. It also makes the assumption that your media is worth £40 to the person purchasing it. If it is only worth £20 to them,they will pay £20 and not more.

This seems to be more of issue with console games TBH as with the PC the games seem to be much better priced and there seems to be more DLC content available too.

OTH,people have been buying and selling console games for decades and it is the way many kids can afford to get games in the first place. If they don't want second-hand sales perhaps they should produce "one-shot" editions which are not transferable. Instead of charging £35 to £40 a launch,they could charge £20 to £25. This way it means there is less financial incentive for people to sell their games on.

i think you are missing the point completely. and let's be clear, it's not my point, i don't care. i'm not a gamer, i don't work for a software company or retailer, so i don't win or lose either way

the point is, they know there is piracy, they do what they can to stop that, the know there is ebay and rental places, as they have been there for years

what the problem is that second hand games are being sold side by side brand new copies of games in the main chain high street stores, and even supermarkets are getting in on it now. so whilst you say people aren't prepared to pay full price for the games, the point is that isn't completely true, some people would pay full price for the game, BUT when face to face in the same store with a full price copy of the game and a cheaper second hand but perfectly playable copy of the game, a large enough percentage of people will choose the cheaper option to make a noticeable impact on the developers revenue

the things you mentioned that happened before are small fry in comparison to the main retailers selling second hand games on the same shelves as new games in the same department. previously you went to those stores and only had the option of brand new games, you had to seek out specialist indie stores, or specific second hand stores, or run the gauntlet of ordered from fleabay or forums, with less guarantees of what you are going to get and less customer service. by comparison they were like piracy before the days of napster. it was napster that made downloading easy for normal people to do, whilst before it was more your enthusiast, for want of a better term for the old school internet pirate/leach. once p2p was unleashed, every man and his dog were going bat**** crazy downloading everything they could on their 56k modems. what the gaming industry is facing is yet another huge problem for them, they were hit by piracy, and now the legit sales are taking a hammering from the big boys in the retail market. not geezers on market stalls or local wee stores that chip playstations in the back if you give them a wink

instead of reducing the price, moving to DLC is the way forward. then they remove the two main problems in one go, piracy and second hand markets. give it a few years and games discs will go the same way as cds, with most people moving to mp3 type playback and discs left on shelves

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

i think you are missing the point completely. and let's be clear, it's not my point, i don't care. i'm not a gamer, i don't work for a software company or retailer, so i don't win or lose either way

the point is, they know there is piracy, they do what they can to stop that, the know there is ebay and rental places, as they have been there for years

what the problem is that second hand games are being sold side by side brand new copies of games in the main chain high street stores, and even supermarkets are getting in on it now. so whilst you say people aren't prepared to pay full price for the games, the point is that isn't completely true, some people would pay full price for the game, BUT when face to face in the same store with a full price copy of the game and a cheaper second hand but perfectly playable copy of the game, a large enough percentage of people will choose the cheaper option to make a noticeable impact on the developers revenue

the things you mentioned that happened before are small fry in comparison to the main retailers selling second hand games on the same shelves as new games in the same department. previously you went to those stores and only had the option of brand new games, you had to seek out specialist indie stores, or specific second hand stores, or run the gauntlet of ordered from fleabay or forums, with less guarantees of what you are going to get and less customer service. by comparison they were like piracy before the days of napster. it was napster that made downloading easy for normal people to do, whilst before it was more your enthusiast, for want of a better term for the old school internet pirate/leach. once p2p was unleashed, every man and his dog were going bat**** crazy downloading everything they could on their 56k modems. what the gaming industry is facing is yet another huge problem for them, they were hit by piracy, and now the legit sales are taking a hammering from the big boys in the retail market. not geezers on market stalls or local wee stores that chip playstations in the back if you give them a wink

instead of reducing the price, moving to DLC is the way forward. then they remove the two main problems in one go, piracy and second hand markets. give it a few years and games discs will go the same way as cds, with most people moving to mp3 type playback and discs left on shelves

You have missed the point entirely.

[aidanjt]

You have missed the point entirely.

Hi, free market, how are you?

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Hi, free market, how are you?

I heard due to the recession it went the way of the Dodo!!

[aidanjt]

I heard due to the recession it went the way of the Dodo!!

Apparently, it seems corporations are now quite happy to bribe governments into stomping out all non-corporate property rights.

[badass]

Game etc charge about £3 less for the preowned version of a game - but rather than ~£10, the publisher gets ~£0.

There is scope for compromise here.

Agreed. Like charging a small fee for online use.

Taking the car analogy a little too far - main dealers sell second hand cars next to the new ones as well.

Of course, the games publishers can threaten to push the digital versions for substantially less money than the boxed copies, driving these stores out of business. That may encourage compromise

[badass]

Apparently, it seems corporations are now quite happy to bribe governments into stomping out all non-corporate property rights.

Don't be so cynical. Poeple have been calling for reform of the ridiculous American patent system for years now. So the governemt listened. (!)
And rode roughshod over the rights of the individual inventor completely ignoring the actual problems.

[aidanjt]

No compromise is necessary, once they sell a media license, what happens in the chain of resale is absolutely none of their business. Their business is making games, not subverting property rights.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Taking the car analogy a little too far - main dealers sell second hand cars next to the new ones as well.

So just like the retail stores too?? Perfect analogy. On top of this what about shops like CEX which only sell secondhand products?? What about dealerships which only sell secondhand cars??

Of course, the games publishers can threaten to push the digital versions for substantially less money than the boxed copies, driving these stores out of business. That may encourage compromise

BTW,I also mentioned that before,ie,editions which are much cheaper but limited to the initial purchaser.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Saracen has hit the nail on the head with his post.

I don't buy used games. I don't think I EVER have, and if I've forgotten something, it's certainly been a very rare occasion. I also don't think I've ever sold a game on, which is why I have a considerable storage problem with loads of boxed games. To be honest, I'm planning on cutting the covers on the boxes off and storing games in bags, just to reclaim space.

What I do do these days, though, is buy games after they've been out a couple of years, and the price has dropped. The last few I bought were a fiver each.

If you have a limited budget for games compared to your desires, you have three options :-

1) Buy less games, or
2) Buy late, and cheap, or
3) Buy second-hand.

Games companies need to recognise that with the economy as it is, funds are limited and, like just about everything else, the consumer spending is decreasing. Get used to it. Cut your expenditure according to your income, and don't insult or moan at customers just 'cos they're buying used, because for quite a few, their logic is "buy, play for a while, then sell while it's still worth something to fund the next purchase". If you buy at £40, use for a month then sell at £20, the net cost is £20. The alternative is to buy half as many games.

[Zhaoman]

The difference between video games and other consumer products (e.g. cars) is that the quality of the second-hand product is (or the end user experience should be) identical to the original. So there is much less incentive to buy new when given a choice. Instead of making do with a slightly aged product for a cheaper price, second-hand games give exactly the same gaming experience as new games while the developers get no reward - I think that is the difference and I can sympathise with game creators at least in this way.

Also how do the makers of Heavy Rain know that these 1 million gamers aren't just borrowing the game from their friend or family? I borrow games from my friends all the time.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

The difference between video games and other consumer products (e.g. cars) is that the quality of the second-hand product is (or the end user experience should be) identical to the original. So there is much less incentive to buy new when given a choice. Instead of making do with a slightly aged product for a cheaper price, second-hand games give exactly the same gaming experience as new games while the developers get no reward - I think that is the difference and I can sympathise with game creators at least in this way.

You could make the same argument about secondhand CDs and DVDs for example(I did also mention these too). You might not realise this but at least before the 1980s it was common for people to tape music off the radio even with the latest tracks. Imagine how much money was lost by record companies and artists(to a lesser degree) too.

The same goes with "slightly aged" cars. What about low mileage secondhand models still technically within the manufacturers warranty? The same goes with many other items.

I cannot remember the last time I bought a secondhand game but YMMV and hence not everyone will buy new.

[Lucio]

I think to blame the loss of sales on pre-owned games is rather foolish. Unless I'm much mistaken a good % of sales for a new game take place in the pre-order period and within a week of release. As such, your game would have to be exceptionally short and poor value for money for the 2nd hand games market to cause you grief.


Yes, I agree that particularly for console games, the second hand market reduces long term sales by creating a downward pressure on price (why pay £39.99 for a year old game when it's a £10 second hand?). Ultimately though, price drops naturally anyway, so again the effect is minimal

[aidanjt]

Also how do the makers of Heavy Rain know that these 1 million gamers aren't just borrowing the game from their friend or family? I borrow games from my friends all the time.

Borrowing is 'theft', too. They don't care about correct statistics, they only care about statistics which appears to support their argument that they're losing out big. Whether the value of the resale is as much as the original sale is wholly irrelevant. Once you sell something to someone, you surrender ownership of it to them completely. You wouldn't build a house, sell it, and demand the new owner must share profit from resale if the value increases. And that's with an increase in value, much less bitwise identical, and that's a scarce good, not something you can reproduce ad infinitum for virtually nothing.

This whole thing is completely absurd, greedy, anti-consumer, anti-property rights claptrap.

[Saracen]

The difference between video games and other consumer products (e.g. cars) is that the quality of the second-hand product is (or the end user experience should be) identical to the original. So there is much less incentive to buy new when given a choice. Instead of making do with a slightly aged product for a cheaper price, second-hand games give exactly the same gaming experience as new games while the developers get no reward - I think that is the difference and I can sympathise with game creators at least in this way. ....

But that's not really true, is it?

First, you may not get all the bits. Second, you may get thumbed, dog-eared and creased manuals, with or without Marmite stains, depending in the personal hygiene habits (and presence or lack of eating at the keyboard). But most importantly, you have to wait to get a second-hand game. And if you're going to wait (as I usually do) the price drops anyway. So the total package, that of getting and playing a game when or shortly after it comes out, is not available on the bulk of second-hand sales.

I can see no justification whatever for software companies expecting to get a share of second-hand sales. They had a product, they sold it ("it" being the box, paperwork, media and a licence to use the product) and they made their margin on that. Expecting to get another bite of the cherry if someone sells it is presumptuous in the extreme, in my opinion.

[Pob255]

Or to look at this another way 2million people bought the game of which 1million then sold it on again, or 50% of all players liked the game so much they didn't keep it.

Which really shows what the long term playability was like.
I wonder how many, of the 1million resold, where actually completed by the original owner and how many where sold on before the game was even completed?

A lot of publishers are very interested and getting into download only games, not only does it stop resale but more importantly it costs them less to produce them so even selling them at a lower price they can make more money per sale.

ps cat your example of music industry losing money from people recording stuff from the radio/tv doesn't hold water because all broadcast media has to own a license first and pay a royalty fee every time they play a song/show
So even if you did record something from the radio they producers&artists still get some money from the original transmission.

However I do agree that the industry complaining about the 2nd hand market is rather silly, but I think uni is correct.

what the problem is that second hand games are being sold side by side brand new copies of games in the main chain high street stores, and even supermarkets are getting in on it now. so whilst you say people aren't prepared to pay full price for the games, the point is that isn't completely true, some people would pay full price for the game, BUT when face to face in the same store with a full price copy of the game and a cheaper second hand but perfectly playable copy of the game, a large enough percentage of people will choose the cheaper option to make a noticeable impact on the developers revenue

the things you mentioned that happened before are small fry in comparison to the main retailers selling second hand games on the same shelves as new games in the same department. previously you went to those stores and only had the option of brand new games, you had to seek out specialist indie stores, or specific second hand stores, or run the gauntlet of ordered from fleabay or forums, with less guarantees of what you are going to get and less customer service.

The bit in bold I think is the key point, while it was fairly small chains like CEX doing it the loss wasn't that big, esp with consoles, the enthusiast games market while spending more per head is still far smaller and less profitable than the far wider casual market, ask a non-gamer if they've heard of CEX before? and if they've heard of HMV before? And which they've bought things from?
Supermarkets are even worst as most game sales there will be from people who've gone to do their shopping not to actually buy a game, I'll often have a look at the games a supermarket has on sale just on the off chance as I do my shopping, the only game I ever bought was Spore, from sainsburys, simply because pc world didn't have it and I really wanted that day, but that was more popping in on the off chance they had it rather than when I was shopping.
And I can more than likely see this passing trade picking up 2nd hand games if they are cheaper, esp if they think of it as a bargain.

There's other interesting things going on as well, things like the retail price, the way console games are often more expensive than the pc version, historically the big reason for this was basically piracy, because it was a lot harder for your casual gamer to get hold of, or copy, console games.
So publishers could charge far more for them, yet at the same time it was often easier and cheaper to develop games for consoles.
They knew that to keep pc piracy levels lower they had to charge less.

I also agree with Saracen on this point

Games companies need to recognise that with the economy as it is, funds are limited and, like just about everything else, the consumer spending is decreasing. Get used to it.

This is especially true on the causal gamer side of the market, publishers have been chasing this growing area for a while and now when the casual user is tightening there belts, less important things like games are some of the first in the fireing line.
If you're going to chase a fickle market to get casual spending in the good times don't whine when you lose their loyalty when things turn rough.