News - Microsoft backtracks: unpopular Xbox One DRM policies torn up

[Saracen]

.... No one Q_Q about the DRM that Steam has ....

Story of the day: Microsoft yet again gets trolled hard by the Internet and media.

Don't agree, on both counts.

Some people do object to Steam DRM. Me included. There have been quite a few games I would have bought but for Steam, but I will not, now or ever, buy a game and then not be able to install/use it unless Steam gives me permission. So, I haven't played those games, and haven't bought a PC game for several years. Steam is a large part of why I bought an XBox 360 in the first place.

As for being "trolled" by the internet, that's actually people giving their opinions, and if companies have half a brain, they'll pay attention when they get this degree of backlash. There will nearly always be negative comment about any change, but the issue is the scale and pace of it. When any company gets large numbers of existing users, exactly the people they target for new products, saying they will not buy because of x, y and z, it would be first-order arrogance, and commercial disaster, to blithely ignore it. And consider, when they get X360 owners, like me, saying "no way", and looking at the PS4 instead, which I otherwise would probably not even have considered, they have to be aware that if they lose me on that console-buying decision right now, they lose me as a customer for everything XBox for several years, including game purchases.

It's not trolling if you say you won't buy one for these reasons, when you actually won't, for those reasons.

[cheesemp]

I don't get this steam argument. I buy lots of games on steam but each one on average is <£5 (and never more than £15 - rarely £10 in fact). An xbox game is a lot more than this - I'm happy to accept a no trade in policy on my games if I know they are cheap as in steam - This just isn't the case on a console...

[kalniel]

Oh yes, Steam caused a ruckus for years after it came out (and still does for some). Can't you remember the anger when half-life 2 required it? Absolute rage at requirement for a third party system to launch games, let alone internet activation and the absolutely refusal for refund/resale. And the shop? Games were (and are) frequently more expensive on Steam than in the shops! Unless you wait for a sale of course...

But time heals many wounds, and many (but not all) PC gamers like what Steam brings to the table. I believe console owners would have eventually come around as well, but MS didn't present it at all well - far too centred on certain markets and seemingly forgetting that there are other vocal markets in the world who would take it badly. We'll see if they re-introduce something similar further down the line, in a more gradual way.

[crossy]

As for being "trolled" by the internet, that's actually people giving their opinions, and if companies have half a brain, they'll pay attention when they get this degree of backlash. There will nearly always be negative comment about any change, but the issue is the scale and pace of it. When any company gets large numbers of existing users, exactly the people they target for new products, saying they will not buy because of x, y and z, it would be first-order arrogance, and commercial disaster, to blithely ignore it. And consider, when they get X360 owners, like me, saying "no way", and looking at the PS4 instead, which I otherwise would probably not even have considered, they have to be aware that if they lose me on that console-buying decision right now, they lose me as a customer for everything XBox for several years, including game purchases.

It's not trolling if you say you won't buy one for these reasons, when you actually won't, for those reasons.

Quite! And in my case we've got dual 360's (one Kinect-equipped) AND one of the Family Packs - so MS have had a "good chunk o' change" from my wallet. But neither of those is looking likely to be replaced by an XBone - so while the game publishers might get some more money, MS themselves won't other than the Family Pack renewal.

No, I'm actually going to give MS a on this one - they launched with a load of arrogant pronouncements (to quote a previous post in this thread - Ballmerisms) which they've then had to pull back from. That's NOT a bad company - on the contrary that's a company listening to reasoned criticism and reacting accordingly.

Heck, there's a bit of good PR in "XBox One - doing things the way YOU told you us you wanted"

As pointed out above there will always be trolls out there, but the scope and consistency of complaints in this case would make it obvious to all but the completely pig-headed that the folks doing this aren't "trolls" but instead your valuable customer base!

Other thing Microsoft could do - from my selfish point of view - would be to bolster the launch volumes by offering owners a trade in deal for their old XBox's. Say £100 for a Slim+Kinect, £75 for just a Slim, £50 (or less) for the older models. Plus point from their POV is that this sends a clear "we value your continued loyalty" message and prevents folks defecting to PS4.

[atomos]

Yes there's nothing stopping MS from re-introducing the DRM after launch, once they've established the XB1 user base.

[j.o.s.h.1408]

So MS do listen to the internet?Shocking

[Saracen]

Oh yes, Steam caused a ruckus for years after it came out (and still does for some). Can't you remember the anger when half-life 2 required it? Absolute rage at requirement for a third party system to launch games, let alone internet activation and the absolutely refusal for refund/resale. And the shop? Games were (and are) frequently more expensive on Steam than in the shops! Unless you wait for a sale of course...

But time heals many wounds, and many (but not all) PC gamers like what Steam brings to the table. I believe console owners would have eventually come around as well, but MS didn't present it at all well - far too centred on certain markets and seemingly forgetting that there are other vocal markets in the world who would take it badly. We'll see if they re-introduce something similar further down the line, in a more gradual way.

I certainly do remember anger over HL2. HL may well be my all-time favourite, and to this day, I've not played HL2, and nor will I ever do so while Steam remains a requirement.

I agree that Steam brings advantages, too. They just come with a price tag I'm not prepared to pay.

And also, yes, I agree a lot of people blow off ....erm .... steam, over Steam, then quietly sign up anyway. It's human nature, sadly.

And yes, I do have concerns that this MS backtrack might be a delaying tactic. But .... if you can connect the Bone to the net once to configure, then (as MS said) never need to connect again, it's hard to see how they can backtrack on that later.

As for them giving in, user backlash over XB360 and Steam are different. With Steam, there's no barrier to someone changing their mind a week, month or a year later. No cost implications, no barriers. But with the console, if people go and buy a PS4 instead, that's a very large barrier to changing your mind, because most average people will buy a console, but not both.

So, if MS are going to avert a potentially gargantuan sales blunder, they have to do it before people commit actual money, and preferably need to do it before people get too entrenched in their opposition, and while the publicity is still on this subject. I.e. now.

[OilSheikh]

And Sony have been a shining example of good behaviour to consumers with the removal of Linux mode,

Sony removed the Linux mode because some muppets decided to install Windows as a virtual OS and then were showing off how they managed to play illegally downloaded PS3 games.

[Biscuit]

I certainly do remember anger over HL2. HL may well be my all-time favourite, and to this day, I've not played HL2, and nor will I ever do so while Steam remains a requirement.

Dude you are aware that:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Half-Life-Th.../dp/B000RO349S

If you haven't played it still then i cant recommend this enough, even if it is using the incorrect control system.

[george1979]

Steam is an excellent system in my opinion. I remember some years back there were a few annoying niggles with it but these seem to have been ironed out and it works pretty much flawlessly.
I understand some people are annoyed at the principle of needing it to play your games but it was needed in order to give the PC gaming industry a shot in the arm given the problems with piracy.

[poonsies]

Always entertaining to see people getting all annoyed about not having the option of re-selling console games. If you want to know what the biggest thorn in the games industries side is, look no further. There are as few as what ? 4-5 independent triple A developers in the UK now ? Mostly down to people wanting to buy a title for £5 less at CEX which completely negates any actual money going to the people that make such titles (developers NOT publishers).

Piracy is a minuscule problem compared to second-hand sales.

Games developer - 7 years experience on 13 AAA titles.

[Infinite]

Don't agree, on both counts.

Some people do object to Steam DRM. Me included. There have been quite a few games I would have bought but for Steam, but I will not, now or ever, buy a game and then not be able to install/use it unless Steam gives me permission. So, I haven't played those games, and haven't bought a PC game for several years. Steam is a large part of why I bought an XBox 360 in the first place.

When I said "no one" I didn't mean that no one in the entire world, there will always been some people like yourself will always object to Steam DRM. For the most part though people have stopped hating Steam DRM and have come to terms that its benefits out weigh its limitations. If Microsoft played it out better and morderation I suspect that the amount of backlash would have been more manageable that they might not have had to change its DRM.

It's not trolling if you say you won't buy one for these reasons, when you actually won't, for those reasons.

The reason I say troll is that if you look at comments for the E3 presentation many of them were like "Microsoft screwed up hard, screw the spying kinect, no internet for 24 hour check in, i'm buying a PS4 now," all of these easily out shadowed the few positive comments that people had. How many of these comments were from legitimate people that had genuine concerns about the DRM and not just people that jumped on the lets hate Microsoft/ Windows Vista bandwagon.

If you look at today's comments on the DRM reversal they also done a 180 and headed in this direction "lol i was really looking forward to the family sharing, might as well get a PS4 now because they are both the same and the PS4 has better specs and is cheaper."

When a new console come the mass will pick a side and harass the other i.e. xbox360 vs ps3

[Saracen]

Dude you are aware that:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Half-Life-Th.../dp/B000RO349S

If you haven't played it still then i cant recommend this enough, even if it is using the incorrect control system.

I was aware, yeah, but last time I looked, I struggled to get clear what it did and did not require. It says XBox Live, and my XBox is not on, or near, a net connection. I couldn't get a clear answer so I didn't bother. Besides, somehow, HL is a "PC" game to me, and I'm not sure it'd feel right.

[Saracen]

When I said "no one" I didn't mean that no one in the entire world, there will always been some people like yourself will always object to Steam DRM. For the most part though people have stopped hating Steam DRM and have come to terms that its benefits out weigh its limitations. If Microsoft played it out better and morderation I suspect that the amount of backlash would have been more manageable that they might not have had to change its DRM.

....

Understood. Quantifying it is tricky, though. Among my group of game-playing friends, small though it may be, almost all disliked the implications of Steam from the get-go, and none have changed their mind. Several have given up PC gaming entirely.

....

The reason I say troll is that if you look at comments for the E3 presentation many of them were like "Microsoft screwed up hard, screw the spying kinect, no internet for 24 hour check in, i'm buying a PS4 now," all of these easily out shadowed the few positive comments that people had. How many of these comments were from legitimate people that had genuine concerns about the DRM and not just people that jumped on the lets hate Microsoft/ Windows Vista bandwagon. ....

How many, indeed. Hard to be sure, either way.

It's not an uncommon reaction on the the net be accused of "trolling" by people holding a different view. Not accusing you, by the way. A few years back, I was accused of all sorts of things, from being a xenophobic and/or racist little Englander to, yes, trolling, for arguing that that the UK should not join the Euro, despite giving detailed economic reasons for that stance. Needless to say, those same people keep very quiet on the subject of the UK joining the Euro now.

It may well be that some of those condemning the 24-hour connection stance, and others, were just keyboard warriors having a go either at a change because it's different, or just at MS because they're MS, but my read is that the scale of the reaction, especially among existing XBox owners, suggest it was far more serious than that, and I take MS's volte-face as proof that they do, too.

....

If you look at today's comments on the DRM reversal they also done a 180 and headed in this direction "lol i was really looking forward to the family sharing, might as well get a PS4 now because they are both the same and the PS4 has better specs and is cheaper."

When a new console come the mass will pick a side and harass the other i.e. xbox360 vs ps3

I would not suggest that MS do not have reasons for what they do, or that the changes herald benefits. The question is whether, for me, the benefits justify the change, because the only buying decision I'm going to control is mine.

And I've found myself increasingly making "no way in hell" decisions recently.

An example .... Adobe taking Photoshop into subscription-based "creative cloud" mode, with no perpetual licence. Well personally, "no way in hell", despite having been a PS user for, well, finger in air, 15 years. Maybe more. Long before photo editing was commonplace, and when getting my slides digitised meant a £2000 35mm film scanner, 'cos decent quality digital cameras didn't exist, and even the best I tried (including Nikon, Minolta and Canon) tended to be around £5k each, body only.

Another example .... Windows 8 MUI unless I can get rid of it can carry on working "normally". Presently, I can, with 3rd party tools,. but if MS ever block that, I move off of Windows. A couple of machines already have.

Yet another (MS) example. Office 365, subscriptions and (largely, but not exclusively) cloud-based. Again, "no way in hell".

In each case, there are benefits (especially to Adobe, MS, etc) but in each case, the "price" (and not just money) is one that I, personally, am NOT going to pay.

Sometimes (XB One) people, en-masse, moaning, results in a swift about-face. Sometimes, (Win 8 MUI) it results in a partial climb-down that is really just a manoeuvring tactic. Sometimes (Photoshop, so far at least, and I'm not expecting any change) it results in the corporate equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, and loudly singing "la la la la" like a petulant 5-year old.

BUT .... about the ONLY chance we small, tiny, individual specks of irrelevance, otherwise known as "customers", have of getting companies to change direction is if we all, if we feel it, SHOUT NO. And if we do it in large enough numbers that the company says "woah, errrr ..... oops".

So, when get something like the proposed XB One policies, those who dislike it ought to shout loudly .... as did those who like the advantages.

[george1979]

Always entertaining to see people getting all annoyed about not having the option of re-selling console games. If you want to know what the biggest thorn in the games industries side is, look no further. There are as few as what ? 4-5 independent triple A developers in the UK now ? Mostly down to people wanting to buy a title for £5 less at CEX which completely negates any actual money going to the people that make such titles (developers NOT publishers).

Piracy is a minuscule problem compared to second-hand sales.

Games developer - 7 years experience on 13 AAA titles.

I don't see why games developers or any other software makers feel they should make money from second hand sales. If I pay for something then it should be mine to sell should I wish to (digital sales are obviously a bit trickier). Same with music, TVs, cars or anything else. The fact that it is software is irrelevant and to describe second hand sales as a 'problem' is ridiculous. If devs make games with more replay value then there is less incentive to sell them on or trade them in.
There are certain games on my Xbox that I never traded in because I enjoyed them so much - even though I rarely played them again I didn't want to get rid of them. Devs should worry more about making products which people don't wanna trade in rather than what people will do with their games after they've bought it.

[poonsies]

In an ideal world all games are 10/10 mega hits.

Unfortunately, an inherent issue with such a relatively young industry is a lot of it is trial an error which results in games which do well in only one or two areas but fall short of the "perfect experience". By reducing the amount of money actually going back into the development of games your making your ideal world further and further away. Bigger picture my friend, bigger picture.