News - Steam Family Sharing beta arrives next week

[Jonj1611]

I would quite happily buy second hand games if I could find them, not everyone is made of money.

The only reason I buy so many games from Steam is I usually only buy in the sales and a lot of newer games are coming with one use codes or has to be activated on steam codes.

[Noli]

@ Noli Digital goods and physical goods should not be compared, one is unlimited in supply and the other is not so there are good real world reasons for re-using physical goods that cannot be used as reasons for re-using digital goods.

I can compare them if I like. Why shouldn't they be compared? I can compare buying mp3 to buying CDs or buying Kindle books to physical books. Just because something is physical or not doesn't mean I can't compare them. There are plenty of regular users of mp3s who like owning CDs and two friends I have are voracious readers but always prefer physical books. I myself regularly use digital games but have bought 2nd hand occasionally.

Please don't tell me I can't buy 2nd hand or can't compare digital to buyinging 2nd hand. For many, price is the main issue, physical or digital be damned. I don't care if you can't re-use digital goods - that was your choice to buy them. If I want to sell my 2nd hand physical game, I have every right to do so, just like you can sell your 2nd hand car or house or pants if you want. I've just compared many things. So there.

If you are willing to wait for second hand games then why can't you wait for sales? I find it hard to believe there is a big enough selection of second hand pc games that makes it worthwhile to spend time finding them. I'm not willing to accept that a persons unwillingness to wait is a good reason for using second hand games. The lack of people's ability to simply wait is making the games market worse for us.

What don't you get? People don't need a reason, or a good reason and certainly not your reasons to buy a game 2nd hand if they so desire. I find your logic obnoxious as it is bizarre. "Why can't you wait for sales?" Really?! Why should I?!!! You really can't tell other people what to do. And no-one needs to give you a reason for using a second hand game. And I don't care whether you *think* it makes the market worse for you or not. Grand Theft Auto 5 or whatever just sold billions. There's plenty of money to be made with or without a few people legitimately selling on their used goods.

And who said anything about having to wait to buy 2nd hand? Go to ebay now and search "Star Craft" or "Bioshock PC". There are plenty of buy-it-now listings. Or you can search auctions by those ending soonest. At least you know when an auction is ending unlike knowing when steam sales might or might not occur. I find the lack of imagination in your arguments... well, pathetic.

You say that buying second hand games is good... for who? Do you realise what the impact of buying second hand games is on the industry? I learnt about the impact of selfish thinking first with Iron Lore and their game Titan Quest ... and I'll never get a sequel to one of my favourite games because Iron Lore no longer exists. The price of not supporting developers is high but it is hidden from consumers and the attitude of "I am going to do it this way because it benefits me and I don't care about any other factors" is making it worse. Buying second hand games is a symptom of a greater problem I find your arguments for supporting that problem less than reasonable.

Really? I have NO obligation to support this or any other industry either morally or in any other way. You didn't get your favourite game re-made? Boo hoo, cry me a river - it has nothing to do with me and it's offensive that you might try to pin it on other people who might legitimately decide to sell something they *own*. If developers make attractive enough products, people will buy them and that includes indie games made on a shoe string, such as World of Goo, Braid, Super Meat Boy etc (all of which I bought digitally). If the services I offer aren't purchased, sure it hurts me, but I don't go round blaming my situation on anybody else. Maybe you shouldn't either.

[Noxvayl]

@ Noli

It is a shame that you have such a bad understanding of an economy that those are the decisions you make. I'm not making the case that my situation is worse because of anybody else, I am stating that everybody's situation is worse because of the poor decision making you are defending. Behaving in the manner you have described is selfish and detrimental to our economy and I look forward to a time where such rationalisations are more difficult to maintain.

[jimbouk]

It is a shame that you have such a bad understanding of an economy that those are the decisions you make.

That does seem a bit harsh. Can we stick to a polite discussion please.


Physical second hand games are like any other second hand good. Digital second hand anything is a grey area, however I believe you should be able to buy and sell them like cars.

Do second hand games harm the games market? Yes. Do second hand cars harm the car manufacturing market? Again yes. But one helps the post office (or digital rights handler) on transfer and the other helps independent garages.

[Noli]

It is a shame that you have such a bad understanding of an economy that those are the decisions you make. I'm not making the case that my situation is worse because of anybody else, I am stating that everybody's situation is worse because of the poor decision making you are defending. Behaving in the manner you have described is selfish and detrimental to our economy and I look forward to a time where such rationalisations are more difficult to maintain.

My duty is NOT to help the economy. My duty is to provide the best value for myself and my family. Naturally I'll end up participating in the economy anyway but companies have to WIN my money - I am not duty bound how or where I spend it like you are implying. Are you honestly saying that you've never bought a 2nd hand car - or sold one 2nd hand - because it's hurt the poor automobile industry from making a new sale?!! Of course you live in a new build house to stimulate housing supply in a country which has under supply right? Otherwise you're just being selfish.

You're right about me though; my aim is to act selfishly; selfish actions can drive a thriving free capital economy though, just like selfish genes can promote flourishing, advancing and diverse life. Selfish purchasing decisions are the basis for a free market economy. Maybe you are selfish for trying to impose your ill thought out will onto others though, have you thought of that?

Do you want an economic argument? Sure, by buying 2nd hand games thriftily, I have more money in my savings vs buying a new flagship game, thereby reducing the national M0 to M3 money supplies, thereby inhibiting inflation, which is good for us all. Do you see? Your economic argument is but a single line in a very complex series of interactions which nobody has a full handle on.

I know cars are mechanical and degrade and have to go to the dump one day. But physical media has a finite life time too. More importantly, games just *age* faster than cars. Most people don't want to play a 6 or 7 year old game anymore, so the 2nd hand value depreciates and the publishers have lost really nothing at all. They should be focussing on creating new games, not trying to milk pennies out of their old stock. More reasons for 2nd hand games: you can not buy them anymore!! There are no legitimate digital versions of the original star craft or Bioshock that I'm aware of. So obtaining a digital version would be piracy.

And keep your panties on, I buy enough new titles for £40+.

[Jonj1611]

There are no legitimate digital versions of the original star craft or Bioshock that I'm aware of. So obtaining a digital version would be piracy.

Just to note for anyone reading this thread, Bioshock 1 and 2 are available on Steam and the original Starcraft is available from the Blizzard store as a digital download

[Noxvayl]

Apologies, I seem to have made up an imaginary high horse along the line. As you can tell I have a distinct dislike for making decisions based on personal reasons alone. I have agreed with a lot of what Noli said but elected to ignore those parts of the conversation without adding much substance myself.

I don't see much benefit in trying to correct what I've clearly made a mess of so I'd rather just apologise and let others continue a discussion of their own.