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Thread: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    For the first, I hope your maths and electronic circuit design skills are up to speed.
    Probably about as good as the people at HTC who picked the component out of the catalogue and integrated it into the phone.

    Firstly, the patent is about a method. That is, it is NOT about the use, or otherwise, of a single component, but a way of processing signals.
    OK, I can see how a whole legalistic mess can start from that seed.

    Thanks for your explanation, though as an engineer I find myself still thinking that there must be a better way.

    When I were a nipper (yes that was a while ago now) people designed their own modulators using discrete components. But these days? If I want a transceiver, I go to Cambridge Silicon Radio or Qualcomm etc and ask for one. Is that because I can't engineer my way out of a paper radio-anechoic chamber? No, it is because if I don't buy the whole damned stack on a pre-designed lump of silicon then my design will drown in approvals paperwork and costs and the project will fail.

    So I guess that is my beef here, the method of modulation is built in to the radio modem IC, the only way that HTC can do something about that is to re-design the phone using a compliant part like they did with the microphone, or if no such component exists then wait for Qualcomm to make one.

    Motives in this case seem fairly clear. Nokia want to cash in on their IP portfolio, which is only right that they are allowed to do so. HTC want to stop losing money, and the only way they can do that is by selling phones. There would seem to be a simple way forward there given that Nokia are not an HTC competitor, but lawyers and accountants are hell bent on destroying the FRAND licensing and consumers are suffering. Lawyers seem to be doing very nicely out of it though.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunge View Post
    It isn't the same. Private non-commercial use is not an infringement. Your analogy should be something like Honda sell a car which has a Bosch anti-lock brake system and Alfa go after Honda for infringement of patents they have on anti-lock brakes.

    Bottom line - if you are in business you are responsible for your actions. You buy a part then you either check it doesn't infringe someone else's rights or you take a risk (mitigated perhaps by indemnity from the seller).
    But you *can't* check. Really.

    As part of buying the part you will probably sign a non reverse engineering clause with the supplier. OK, that probably isn't enforceable in the EU, so let's say you had the chip electron micrographed (because the supplier sure as hell won't give you the design details) then working back from there to how it works will be fantastically expensive.

    As for the car analogy, I did say I knew it wasn't quite the same. OK, lets get it a bit closer: I run a small business, so now I am a commercial user. I integrate the van into the methods of my business, in the states at least I am currently fair game (although that will hopefully change as even in the land of the litigated it seems their sense of humour has reached a limit). http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...nt-troll-bill/

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    So I guess that is my beef here, the method of modulation is built in to the radio modem IC, the only way that HTC can do something about that is to re-design the phone using a compliant part like they did with the microphone, or if no such component exists then wait for Qualcomm to make one.
    Or license it.
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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by TheAnimus View Post
    Or license it.
    Only if Nokia allow them to license it, and then on Nokia's terms.

    I assume from the list of licensees being Microsoft and the list of legal defendants being every other phone maker that there is some block on that.

    Edit to add: I think I did cover that in my last sentences: "There would seem to be a simple way forward there given that Nokia are not an HTC competitor, but lawyers and accountants are hell bent on destroying the FRAND licensing and consumers are suffering. Lawyers seem to be doing very nicely out of it though.".
    Last edited by DanceswithUnix; 09-12-2013 at 03:50 PM.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Only if Nokia allow them to license it, and then on Nokia's terms.

    I assume from the list of licensees being Microsoft and the list of legal defendants being every other phone maker that there is some block on that.

    Edit to add: I think I did cover that in my last sentences: "There would seem to be a simple way forward there given that Nokia are not an HTC competitor, but lawyers and accountants are hell bent on destroying the FRAND licensing and consumers are suffering. Lawyers seem to be doing very nicely out of it though.".
    I'll disagree with you on the first part of that last sentence. HTC definitely IS a competitor to Nokia - HTC8S/8X v's Lumia. That said, if you're correct and they've licensed to Microsoft, but no one else then that smacks of using patents purely as a commercial smart bomb - which benefits no one but the lawyers.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by crossy View Post
    I'll disagree with you on the first part of that last sentence. HTC definitely IS a competitor to Nokia - HTC8S/8X v's Lumia. That said, if you're correct and they've licensed to Microsoft, but no one else then that smacks of using patents purely as a commercial smart bomb - which benefits no one but the lawyers.
    The deal to sell the phone business to Microsoft was already well under way when this got to court, and there don't seem to be any blocks on the sale so that would make Microsoft the competitor not Nokia. But Microsoft won't want to hurt HTC as they are one of the few companies that make Windows phones so I don't think it has anything to do with them.

    Microsoft will not have purchased the phone division without full use of existing patents and possibly some future ones. That would be part of the deal, how they notionally split the cost of the phone company vs the cost of the patents is politics.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    ....

    So I guess that is my beef here, the method of modulation is built in to the radio modem IC, the only way that HTC can do something about that is to re-design the phone using a compliant part like they did with the microphone, or if no such component exists then wait for Qualcomm to make one.

    Motives in this case seem fairly clear. Nokia want to cash in on their IP portfolio, which is only right that they are allowed to do so. HTC want to stop losing money, and the only way they can do that is by selling phones. There would seem to be a simple way forward there given that Nokia are not an HTC competitor, but lawyers and accountants are hell bent on destroying the FRAND licensing and consumers are suffering. Lawyers seem to be doing very nicely out of it though.
    Lawyer always do well out of this stuff.

    As I understand the judgement, though, it's not as simple as redesigning using a compliant part. It's either using a design that doesn't use a method that conflicts with the patent, or licensing. And that latter is complicated both by different licensing jurisdictions, and principles of law.

    Put it this way. If a patent were granted that says if you combine resistors, diodes, widely available ICs, etc, in this way, then you achieve a given result. There has to be something novel, inventive, not obvious, about how you combine them to get the patent, but if you do, it's that method of combining that's protected. All the individual items can be freely usable, but combining them in that way is protected.

    If then, the patent owner says to Qualcomm (for instance) "yes, you can produce a component that integrates all that into one plug-in chip, BUT it can only be used to make products for sale in, say, Asia, and then Dances Telecom comes along, designs a phone using that component, but markets it in the US, then Dances Telecom is begging for a patent lawsuit. It may be that the patent owner has product offerings in the US, or intends to, but doesn't in Asia. Hence, licencing in Asia makes sense.

    And, the onus is on Dances Telecom to ensure that it isn't stepping on legally enforceable patent protection, and thus stomping on it's own winkle, when it chooses to market that phone in an area not covered by the licence.

    What HTC basically said is that, for technical and design reasons, the patent doesn't apply to our design. They (subject to appeal, perhaps) lost that argument. The judge threw it out.

    But, they also said, even if the design is covered by the patent, either we were licensed by deriving cover from Qualcomm licences, or we didn't need it because of legal principles on when patent protection/licencing extends to sub-buyers, in this jurisdiction. And again, they lost and the judge threw it out.

    But, of course, they could well have legitimately believed they either weren't covered, or were licensed. Nokia, on the other hand, genuinely believed otherwise.

    Suppose you and I do business. I do some work for you, or you do for me. Afterwards, we argue over what was agreed, what the work was, or whether it's satisfactory. You think I owe you, or I think you owe me, but the other one disagrees. Logically, we sit down, discuss it like adults, and sort it out. But if we both believe we are in the right, and neither will compromise, it'll likely end up in court.

    I had exactly that, as a self-employed person, some years sgo, over about £4000 worth of work. I did it, on time, to spec, and the company refused to pay. First they said I hadn't done it, until I demonstrated that they had used it. Then, they agreed it'd been submitted, but was not of an acceptable standard. I pointed out that if that was so, why had they used it?

    They said, basically, tough. I said, "24 hours to get me a cashier's cheque or I start legal proceedings, at which time, additional costs get added and, by the way, interest for late payment as per T&C's. Would you like me to fax you a copy of the court claim papers, because they're completed, and ready to send to the court?"

    Two hours later, a bike courier arrived with that cheque.

    In an ideal world, that company would not have tried to screw me, particularly once I proved the work was done, and used by them. But given that, on principle, I was NOT just giving up, or for that matter, negotiating a post-completion discount, which they also tried.

    It's a shame we have to resort to lawyers and courts, but sometimes, it's the only way to avoid someone ripping you off. It takes two to get it into court, but anyone with a brain will try to be reasonable first. it has to be that neither party will agree.

    Neither Nokia nor HTC did. I don't know which was right, but the court pretty much wholly agreed with Nokia. Which rather suggests Nokia had a good claim, and HTC were trying it on, or they'd have either not abused the patent, or settled without all those huge legal fees .... like my (now ex-) customer did, when pushed into a corner.

    That rather makes me sympathise with Nokia, not HTC.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    That rather makes me sympathise with Nokia, not HTC.
    Well it certainly looks like Nokia are winning the case.

    The only bit I am not convinced of with your excellent post is the bit "It takes two to get it into court". If HTC infringed wilfully then they deserve to get punished and yes two parties were involved. If the infringement was accidental, then now Nokia have them by the short and curlies and if Nokia demand $1B then HTC will have no choice but to end up in court. I'm sure we will never know the details either way.

    I am pretty sure that I would never choose a phone based on the modulator technology, so I can't see why they would wilfully infringe.

    I do notice that Noikia have been given public warning already though: http://www.dailytech.com/EU+to+Nokia...ticle33892.htm

    Is this a 4G thing? It sounds like the 4G capable One series were banned, not the others?

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by crossy View Post
    You're misunderstanding me. From what I've read elsewhere the disputed tech looks like it's pretty core - as in yes, there are other ways to do it, but they incur cost penalties or are lower quality. So what I was trying to find out was whether HTC were dodging what may be quite a reasonable "cost of doing business", or Nokia had "done an Apple" and singled out their main competitor for attention whilst ignoring others violating those patents.
    I'm not misunderstanding. I just think your expectations are incorrect.

    Where we disagree is that you take the position that a benefit associated with the use of the patented technology (be that cost or some measure of performance) should obligate a patentee to license their technology. It does not.

    There are many legitimate reasons why a patentee may not wish to license a party at all e.g. if the infringer's offering is better than the patentee's in other respects, giving access to the technology means the patentee is left with no competitive edge. You should also not jump to conclusions about what is and what isn't happening from the small amount of information in the public domain - how do you know the other parties are not licensed or in license negotiations? How do you know that this isn't intended to be a test case (why sue 10 people with the risk of failing, rather than sue the juiciest one and roll the outcome out against others)? Perhaps some of the parties not currently involved have technology that Nokia wants to cross-license whereas HTC does not?

    Based on what I have seen, there is nothing wrong with the behaviour of Nokia, whether they win or not in court is a different matter.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    But you *can't* check. Really.

    As part of buying the part you will probably sign a non reverse engineering clause with the supplier. OK, that probably isn't enforceable in the EU, so let's say you had the chip electron micrographed (because the supplier sure as hell won't give you the design details) then working back from there to how it works will be fantastically expensive.

    As for the car analogy, I did say I knew it wasn't quite the same. OK, lets get it a bit closer: I run a small business, so now I am a commercial user. I integrate the van into the methods of my business, in the states at least I am currently fair game (although that will hopefully change as even in the land of the litigated it seems their sense of humour has reached a limit).
    Why *can't* you check? What you mean is that people need to make financial choices between spending money on a proper FTO review or taking the risk of infringement. FTO searches are like insurance, they save you from unexpected costs at a later stage. Yes, it is difficult to do it perfectly, but this can all be factored into a risk adjusted ROI calculation. If you don't put the money into FTO up front, then you best keep some aside for later...

    The van analogy isn't that much more relevant in practice. You don't sue your potential customers, you take your competitors off the market (as Nokia are doing here) so the customers have to come to you. This is especially true if the customers are small businesses as the cost of litigation (which always has a risk) means it isn't worthwhile to sue anyway, you wont recover your costs. The patent holder goes after the van supplier whatever - even if the van itself isn't infringing, contributory infringement laws can apply where the van is intended to put a patented invention into effect. It is much easier to kill supply at source than pursue a myriad of small infringers.

    These patent fights (for the most part) are between big boys who have taken calculated gambles to launch products. Its very different from the copyright infringement letters which have been sent out by law firms to individuals.
    Last edited by Gunge; 16-12-2013 at 02:54 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunge View Post
    I'm not misunderstanding. I just think your expectations are incorrect.
    YES, you ARE misunderstanding me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunge View Post
    Where we disagree is that you take the position that a benefit associated with the use of the patented technology (be that cost or some measure of performance) should obligate a patentee to license their technology. It does not.
    I don't remember saying that at all. What I was getting at was a QUESTION as to whether Nokia have, or are in the process of, license said technologies to other parties who - it could be argued - are peers of HTC. Samsung being the most obvious.

    The expansion of that QUESTION then being that if said licenses existed (which, you rightly point out, is unclear based on the information I have to hand) were they offered to HTC and refused, or not. If they were offered but rebuffed, then Nokia has (imho) the moral high ground. And HTC deserve to loose big time...

    If this isn't the case and Nokia is chasing everyone for this patent, (i.e. no licensing deal exists), and HTC is merely the first on their "hit list" then again this is perfectly reasonable behaviour by Nokia.

    On the other hand, if they (Nokia) ARE licensing to everyone else, or giving them a "by", (patent swaps), EXCEPT HTC purely because HTC's 8 series are competition to Nokia's Lumia's, then I'm concerned. Yes, as you point out, Nokia have the commercial right to do this, however it's utterly morally repugnant. And, as has been proved previously, it leaves HTC an avenue to complain (to ITC?) that they're due FRAND terms on a key piece of "core" tech.

    As you point out in the (fairly obvious and common sense) bit that I cut out, there just isn't the information available at the moment to make any kind of informed judgement, and an opinion either way is going to be based solely on personal biases rather than "just the facts".
    Quote Originally Posted by Gunge View Post
    Based on what I have seen, there is nothing wrong with the behaviour of Nokia, whether they win or not in court is a different matter.
    Opinion I've seen elsewhere seems to be pretty solid that this is a "slam dunk" for Nokia and HTC are "banged to rights" on this one. Only degree of discussion is whether this was deliberate or accidental by HTC - if the former then they're going to get a pretty eye-opening fine against them.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunge View Post
    Why *can't* you check? What you mean is that people need to make financial choices between spending money on a proper FTO review or taking the risk of infringement. FTO searches are like insurance, they save you from unexpected costs at a later stage. Yes, it is difficult to do it perfectly, but this can all be factored into a risk adjusted ROI calculation. If you don't put the money into FTO up front, then you best keep some aside for later...
    If you buy in a sub component, you have no idea how it works. So what are you searching for? Also if a relevant patent is submarined it won't turn up in searches until you are in the market.

    The sub component part is key. You don't design sub components. Life is too short to know or care how they work.

    Kind of like I can make a pasta dish from scratch, but in truth life is too short so I buy in dried pasta and a jar of sauce and hope that due diligence at the suppliers of those components of the meal mean I get something edible rather than an evening staring at the toilet bowl.

    The van analogy isn't that much more relevant in practice. You don't sue your potential customers, you take your competitors off the market (as Nokia are doing here) so the customers have to come to you. This is especially true if the customers are small businesses as the cost of litigation (which always has a risk) means it isn't worthwhile to sue anyway, you wont recover your costs. The patent holder goes after the van supplier whatever - even if the van itself isn't infringing, contributory infringement laws can apply where the van is intended to put a patented invention into effect. It is much easier to kill supply at source than pursue a myriad of small infringers.

    These patent fights (for the most part) are between big boys who have taken calculated gambles to launch products. Its very different from the copyright infringement letters which have been sent out by law firms to individuals.
    I was using an exaggerated made up example, as this is a tech forum so we aren't going to be using perfect case history as we only see the dirty headline stuff. I do however get a feeling that going after a myriad of infringers rather than root cause is becoming in vogue with this being an example.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    ...

    Kind of like I can make a pasta dish from scratch, but in truth life is too short so I buy in dried pasta and a jar of sauce and hope that due diligence at the suppliers of those components of the meal mean I get something edible rather than an evening staring at the toilet bowl.

    ....
    As an off-topic aside, and all IMHO, of course, any half-decent pasta will be okay, but "fresh" from a supermarket does taste a lot better. This is not only personal opinion, but blind taste tests support it.

    But, making pasta from scratch isn't exactly rocket science, and I'll go for home-made, even home-made and frozen, every time. 30 minutes every few weeks keeps me sorted, unless I want something specific, like green, orange, black pasta, etc.. And pasta sauce? Decent tomatoes, a little oil, salt, pepper and any favouring you want (mushrooms, or chillies, or basil, whatever), and about 20 seconds with a blender .... job done.

    It's partly about taste, for me, but also about what doesn't go into home-made, like artificial colourings, preservatives, etc. designed solely to ensure shelf-life. And, of course, I can use non-sodium salt, and control how much I use.

    /off-topic ends.

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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen View Post
    It's partly about taste, for me, but also about what doesn't go into home-made, like artificial colourings, preservatives, etc. designed solely to ensure shelf-life. And, of course, I can use non-sodium salt, and control how much I use.

    /off-topic ends.
    Not so much off topic as that lack of knowledge/control over stuff like colourings and salt is exactly my point. We often give up how something is made to other people, we just have to trust that they act in a lawful and better still hopefully an ethical way.

    Last year I could have gone to a local chain restaurant and bought a lasagne made with horse. It doesn't always work out, though in that case I must say I think the lasagne tasted no worse than what they sell now .

    Edit to add: I also buy curry source in a jar despite being quite capable of making it. That may have been an example more open to ingredients abuse!

  16. #47
    root Member DanceswithUnix's Avatar
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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Long but it seems well written article about this:

    http://www.dailytech.com/Crushing+UK...ticle33866.htm

  17. Received thanks from:

    crossy (18-12-2013)

  18. #48
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    Re: News - HTC One Mini banned from sale in UK after Nokia’s patent victory

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Long but it seems well written article about this:

    http://www.dailytech.com/Crushing+UK...ticle33866.htm
    Oh, that article is about the HTC/Nokia spat - I was kind of hoping it was a pasta or curry sauce recipe!

    Actually thanks for posting that - quite interesting - although I'm left with the feeling that perhaps Nokia should have rightly pursued Qualcomm (as the designer/supplier of the offending chips) rather than HTC (as a mere user of said chips).

    I really must dig out my old N770 and give it a spin - the pic in the article reminded me.
    Last edited by crossy; 18-12-2013 at 09:28 AM.

    Career status: still enjoying my new career in DevOps, but it's keeping me busy...

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