Windows 10 is "the last version of Windows," says Microsoft dev

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Because it is to become a service with a constant stream of improvements and updates.

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Read more.

I am wondering how this will work in a corporate environment? Sounds like something that will not work, especially when talking about server editions.....

There is only one possible way they can make money off this... subscriptionnnnnnnn

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Originally Posted by Biscuit

There is only one possible way they can make money off this... subscriptionnnnnnnn

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Or MUI ads? I hope so, anyway, no way am I paying a Windows subscription.

I imagine they will do something similar to chromeos. For example by Samsung chromebook will not receive updates after a certain year (I think 2016/17) which means if I want the latest version of chromeos, I'll need to buy a new device..

um.... how is this going to be funded, how will this work in a business environment where testing etc is needed.

I won't be paying for a subscription to an OS that's for sure and honestly how would that actually work when buying say a new laptop... Hi welcome to your store of choice, oh you'd like this laptop that's £299 but you'll need to pay £10+ a month to use it... oh that will really help oems and ms lol. It works with mobile phones because you're spreading the cost of the phone, it's not going to work on a pc.

I don't mind the idea of the basics of the OS being free and then you pay for extra 'features', say like media features or server features etc but there is no way I will ever pay for just the OS, I'll go over to linux before that happens.

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Originally Posted by shaithis

I am wondering how this will work in a corporate environment? Sounds like something that will not work, especially when talking about server editions.....

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I strongly suspect that corporates won't see much in the way of change. Being snippy, if they annoy corporates then that's their business toasted.

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Originally Posted by Biscuit

There is only one possible way they can make money off this... subscriptionnnnnnnn

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Pay to use? No thanks, watch the flood of folks moving across to other OS's - MacOSX or Linux. Annual subscription I'd be more amenable to, depending on how it's implemented. So if a failure to renew means no updates, but I can continue to use then I'd be okay with that. On the other hand if a lack of subscription means limitations on use or continued "you need to activate a new subscription" then they can stuff that.

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Originally Posted by aidanjt

Or MUI ads? I hope so, anyway, no way am I paying a Windows subscription.

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MUI ads would last only until someone figures out a blocker app for them, then a whole lot of people would opt-out. Me being one.

If Windows is "continually improving" then how the heck are you supposed to deal with reprovisioning? That is, supposing my machine breaks and I've to reinstall the OS, I'm going to be less than happy if I then have to download and install umpteen months worth of updates - especially since that'd invariably mean multiple reboots too. They (MS) go down this continual improvement route then I'd want to see some way for a machine to generate a slipstreamed install DVD, (or flash drive).

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Originally Posted by crossy

If Windows is "continually improving" then how the heck are you supposed to deal with reprovisioning? That is, supposing my machine breaks and I've to reinstall the OS, I'm going to be less than happy if I then have to download and install umpteen months worth of updates - especially since that'd invariably mean multiple reboots too. They (MS) go down this continual improvement route then I'd want to see some way for a machine to generate a slipstreamed install DVD, (or flash drive).

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I imagine MS will provide regular updated media to download. Only option that makes sense. As for corporates - they already rent Windows/Office so its no change for them. For individuals I imagine you'll have free/cheap Windows Starter edition with Bing and have Pro etc available as an addon (Similar thing for media?).

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Originally Posted by LSG501

um.... how is this going to be funded, how will this work in a business environment where testing etc is needed.

I won't be paying for a subscription to an OS that's for sure and honestly how would that actually work when buying say a new laptop... Hi welcome to your store of choice, oh you'd like this laptop that's £299 but you'll need to pay £10+ a month to use it... oh that will really help oems and ms lol. It works with mobile phones because you're spreading the cost of the phone, it's not going to work on a pc.

I don't mind the idea of the basics of the OS being free and then you pay for extra 'features', say like media features or server features etc but there is no way I will ever pay for just the OS, I'll go over to linux before that happens.

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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/02...s_is_too_many/

The problem with this and corporates, is not a subscription model (IF that's where it goes), it's going to be patches that change fundamental underlying functionality.

At the moment, server upgrade can be a fickle beast, with patches essentially "upgrading" the OS, it's going to be a nightmare.

Windows is such a big and complicated piece of software, that this weekly, monthly schedule of adding features is not feasible or much more prone to error than the last scheme. Learn from Apple, Microsoft, they did not unified all the platforms like you wanted to do, they did not introduced a stupid schedule. Really, what is wrong with Microsoft in the last few years? If ain't broken why fix it?

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Originally Posted by yeeeeman

Really, what is wrong with Microsoft in the last few years? If ain't broken why fix it?

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Cos they cocked it up with windows 8 and office 2013 and lost revenue due to that and declining PC sales. Instead of realising lots of us didn't get office2013 due its restrictive and limiting licences compared to 2010, and learning from it, they are going for a money-grabbing subscription gravy train and think that everyone will just suck it up. I left photoshop at CS6, Autocad at 2011 and I will do the same with windows if it comes to subscription models.

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Originally Posted by shaithis

I am wondering how this will work in a corporate environment? Sounds like something that will not work, especially when talking about server editions.....

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I can't find the link ATM but i remember reading that when W10 is released Microsoft is going to retain the fast and slow release rings, the fast ring is going to be for consumers and the slow for the corporate market.

Basically the fast ring (consumers) are going to get the newest features first so that any bugs or problems can be identified and hopefully fixed before rolling the update out to the slow ring (corporate market) with an option for them to delay the update while further testing is done.

EDIT: Found the link

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Originally Posted by Corky34

I can't find the link ATM but i remember reading that when W10 is released Microsoft is going to retain the fast and slow release rings, the fast ring is going to be for consumers and the slow for the corporate market.

Basically the fast ring (consumers) are going to get the newest features first so that any bugs or problems can be identified and hopefully fixed before rolling the update out to the slow ring (corporate market) with an option for them to delay the update while further testing is done.

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So that last bit basically means that fee-paying consumers are being used as beta testers for the corporates... oh wonderful!

Actually the slow/fast rings are given in the article itself:

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PC World reports that there will be both fast and slow-ring security patch options for users – just like how Windows 10 insiders currently choose to get updated. Whether the fast-slow preferences extend to features is not known at this time. Meanwhile business users will be allowed to update at their own pace thanks to Windows Update for Business, free for Windows Pro and Windows Enterprise devices. Various 'distribution rings' can be set up to specify when/what/if updates should and shouldn't occur.

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This is not all that different to how Red Hat does business. There's the Fedora distro, which is the version for the masses, and there's Red Hat, the professional, paid version. And that's probably the biggest knock against Red Hat - they've taken a product that was initially free, and made a successful company out of it that actually rivals the other major server software companies. It's a rather desperate knock, but there you go.

And let's be real, people. Patch Tuesday says we've been beta testing for a product we've paid for for over a decade now.

The biggest problem with MS is they have PR people that describe things like a politician does - they have a way of making anything good sound like you have to take cod liver oil for dessert every night, and everything not super good sound like the end of the world. For the average consumer, there will be little if any change. Upgrade now for free, or after a year, pay for it. Build a new machine? Either buy a new license, or remove it from the old machine. Buy a box store machine? Same as it ever was. But to believe this is the 'last' version of Windows is naive at best, and willfully stupid at worst. It may be the last name change, but that's a far different thing. And there's no company in the world that gives free tech support forever for any product.

Oh, and to drive a final nail in things, Media Center, as last presented in Windows 7, is officially dead. There will be no revival, resurrection or voodoo zombie ritual. There will be, however, native DVD playback. You will still have to buy a product that does blue-ray play back. For reasons stated in a different post, this does NOT make me a happy camper. But much like the 'defunct' games explorer (hint - learn shell commands and copy/paste shortcuts), I will either find a functional kludge, or succumb to the need of using Happague software (which you have to buy new versions of each time an OS upgrades... intentionally...)

Not a hope in hell I'm paying them a subscription for this OS. Microsoft can F off, I think piracy of the OS will start seeing a spike again with this kind of crap.

Steam and co must be laughing as well at this statement.

Looks like I'll be running Win8.1 until end of life.

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Originally Posted by Defiant

Not a hope in hell I'm paying them a subscription for this OS. Microsoft can F off, I think piracy of the OS will start seeing a spike again with this kind of crap.

Steam and co must be laughing as well at this statement.

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Not if your OS is sending back its serial number every so often fr revalidation. Unless you don't connect to the net of course.

I could see this being a nightmare for corporates - regression testing is bad enough as it is, Corporates are reluctant to upgrade from a locked down OS as it is - I can't see them wanting a series of ad hoc changes.

Doesnt Apple pretty much do this? They sell service packs...

I personally dont mind if it goes to a subscription model, but I am not one to care about their privacy as at the end of the day my choices as a 13 year old gave my privacy away to Microsoft and Google so I found no need to revoke it but simply embrace it... every other company gets denied my data directly mind :P.

Apple used to sell service packs but not any more, it's been free so long you have a Mac and updates are free forever until the hardware isn't supported.
If windows becomes a subscription based service, I'm very sure piracy will serge or people will migrate to linux. There's already really good open source software out there, and there's increasingly more support for Steam games

Amazing. The word subscription doesn't appear anywhere in the article. ANYWHERE. Nor does it appear anywhere in any announcement. Or press release. Or Windows 10 related material from Microsoft. ANYWHERE.

Piracy? It's already through the roof, and yet MS has said they will STILL give Win10 away, for free, even to the pirates.

And what does Steam and co have to laugh at? Seriously, on an OS level, what does Steam have to laugh at?

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Originally Posted by Heisuro

Apple used to sell service packs but not any more, it's been free so long you have a Mac and updates are free forever until the hardware isn't supported.
If windows becomes a subscription based service, I'm very sure piracy will serge or people will migrate to linux. There's already really good open source software out there, and there's increasingly more support for Steam games

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Thanks for correcting me, I dont follow much Apple news so I obviously missed that change :D.

Still as you say there are plenty of good open source alternatives, I personally rock Ubuntu at work and its a god send however the one thing that is lacking is a handful of Google apps and a big chunk of gaming support which is the only reason my main machine at home stays on windows as I use it for mostly games :).

With Valve focusing on a linux based OS it has certainly helped get developers attention, combine this with the fact vulkan from Khronos group is looking pretty solid so we will finally have a good alternative to DX. Future looks good but I think there is plenty of room for both MS and the open source alternatives to thrive, MS have just been moving their business in the right direction I think.

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Originally Posted by crossy

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Pay to use? No thanks, watch the flood of folks moving across to other OS's - MacOSX or Linux. Annual subscription I'd be more amenable to, depending on how it's implemented. So if a failure to renew means no updates, but I can continue to use then I'd be okay with that. On the other hand if a lack of subscription means limitations on use or continued "you need to activate a new subscription" then they can stuff that.

MUI ads would last only until someone figures out a blocker app for them, then a whole lot of people would opt-out. Me being one.

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Me being two, too.

But isn't an annual sub basically the same as a monthly sub, in principle? Which, really, is pay-to-use.

I seem to remember, not long ago, getting a chorus of dismissive and even disdainful rebuttals (I don't mean you, Crossy) when I suggested that "free for 12 months" suggested a what did I call it, "change in direction of travel" for MS strategy on Windows, and that I suspected that the "change how we monetarise Windows" was leading pretty much to this .... Windows as a "service" not a product, and that that hinted at what changing the monetisation model implied.

It still, as back then, implies to me MS sre changing from a company offering software products, to one wanting to sell hardware, be it phones or tablets, and services, be it OS services, Office services, or cloud-type services.

In short, they see the future of computing not as one in which we all own highly configurable and hence highly personal devices, like PCs, but rather one where all the computing goes on out in some amorphous computing cloud, and we all have fairly generic devices, be it next-gen phones or tablets, we use to access "services" on/in that cloud.

And for which we will pay a subscription.

Which means they want the predictability of tapping our wallets for £x/month (or per year because, ultimately, it's the same thing) rather than US having control over whether we upgrade or not.

And that is why I, personally, am not going there.

I'm not, now or indeed ever, paying a subscription for Windows. I note MS haven't yet said anything about subscriptions, about how "monetisation" will take place. But on the assumption that they do indeed to get paid, somehow, for ongoing Windows, subscription of some form (and time period) is looking increasingly likely.

Well, not doing it. I WILL keep direct control over when, and if, I upgrade and if I can't do it with Windows, I'll do it with something else. MS are not dipping into my pocket every month, or year. Not for Windows, not for Office, not for cloud services, not even for Xbox live, or whatever they call it now. I rejected it for Photoshop, and reject it for MS stuff too.

And that's why I'm keeping Win10 at arm's length.

And it's largely why I was so angry with MS when they tried to shove W8 MUI down our throats, and why I so absolutely rejected it. The agenda was the same - leverage those exact same devices, phones snd tablets, by piggybacking on the Windows installed userbase, attempting to seize a dominant market position by leveraging the Windows userbase. And it's STILL, even now, what they're up to, IMHO.

Remember Saracen they are giving Windows 10 for free if you switch to it within 12 months of release, not simply 12 months free. I suspect it will be subscription at some point however I doubt it will happen in Windows 10 or at least not within a fair amount of time, I suspect once Windows 8.1 official support has ended will be the time when they add a subscription as at that point they can then cease main updates to windows 10 users and say 'keep subscribing for more features/developments)'

At least that makes sense to me, they cant just upgrade everyone to Windows 10 only to completely take it away so I suspect they will just stop updates like their normal method of 'killing' off an OS version.

The comments I've seen are distinctly ambiguous as to what's free. We won't know for sure exactly what the deal is, until full pricing and contents details are announced.

I know some people say "it's free, so what's the problem?" Well, ask the fish about to swallow the "free food" .... because he hasn't seen the hook and line. ;)

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Originally Posted by Saracen

The comments I've seen are distinctly ambiguous as to what's free. We won't know for sure exactly what the deal is, until full pricing and contents details are announced.

I know some people say "it's free, so what's the problem?" Well, ask the fish about to swallow the "free food" .... because he hasn't seen the hook and line. ;)

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Flip that on it's head, if we're going to be fair. There's no more absolute proof of a subscription model just as there is no absolute proof of free, other than the word free has been used, multiple times, from multiple people at Microsoft, and the word subscription has never been uttered by anyone at Microsoft. And you know as well as I do that, until such time as the pricing is officially announced, every single time any tech site posts this kind of article, and allows commentary, there's going to be discussion on both sides of the topic.

And realistically, we have just shy of 5 more years on Win 7, and 8 more on 8/8.1. If everything falls apart and goes the absolute worst way possible with Windows 10, and someone can't figure out how to make Windows games run reliably on Linux 100% of the time by then, after GabeN's proclamations from on high, then we're pretty well screwed regardless.

But yes, you are correct - the bluebird of happiness does occasionally crap on someone's birthday cake. But you have to ask yourself, is it healthy to keep looking out for it to the detriment of every other possibility?

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

Flip that on it's head, if we're going to be fair. There's no more absolute proof of a subscription model just as there is no absolute proof of free, other than the word free has been used, multiple times, from multiple people at Microsoft, and the word subscription has never been uttered by anyone at Microsoft. And you know as well as I do that, until such time as the pricing is officially announced, every single time any tech site posts this kind of article, and allows commentary, there's going to be discussion on both sides of the topic. ....

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Oh sure, there's nothing categoric. And probably won't be until an official launch 'pricing' anouncement. Which is why I said, and even bolded, "suspected" direction of travel, and "looks like", etc.

It is official, though, that they are changing the way they monetise Windows. And one thing after another supports that. Quite how they do so is what's causing the debate. If they'd just come out and tell us precisely what they are, and aren't doing, or considering, it'd go a long way killing off such discussions.

For instance, if Win10 is going to be "free", what features will be in and not in that, and does the 'premium' version have the rest? Or, is it just raising revenue by commissions on MUI apps ( in which, personally, I have no interest at all), or by add-on services like cloud services (again, not interested).

As for looking for problems, well, Windows is kinda important to my computing operations, and business life. Not essential, though. What I would like to know is what to plan for? There are several things I'm planning on doing, and buying, and the last thing I want to do is buy Windows versions IF they're going to go subscription, because if they do, I quit Windows, and will need to start forward thinking in a different direction.

To be honest, I'm happy either way. If they go subscription, I go Linux. If they don't, I'll probably stay Windows provided I can use whatever Win10 proves to look like how I want to, and they don't do something functionally unacceptable to me, be it unavoidable cloud integration, or subscription, or constant online validation checks, etc.

I'd just like to know which way they're going, sooner rather than later.

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Originally Posted by Saracen

It still, as back then, implies to me MS sre changing from a company offering software products, to one wanting to sell hardware, be it phones or tablets, and services, be it OS services, Office services, or cloud-type services.

In short, they see the future of computing not as one in which we all own highly configurable and hence highly personal devices, like PCs, but rather one where all the computing goes on out in some amorphous computing cloud, and we all have fairly generic devices, be it next-gen phones or tablets, we use to access "services" on/in that cloud.

And for which we will pay a subscription.

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Following a similar line to Apple then which from a business point of view is logical as Apple have been very successful though its doubtful that Microsoft could exactly replicate the same path.
Apple are a hardware company that just happen to have decent OS's whereas Microsoft have always been a software company first who are now making a more serious foray into the hardware sector. Is it possible that at some point should in the future that Windows will only be licensed to run on Microsft hardware?

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

Piracy? It's already through the roof, and yet MS has said they will STILL give Win10 away, for free, even to the pirates.

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The claim that pirates also get a free copy was widely reported but turned out to be incorrect, while they can upgrade from an illegal copy of Windows 7/8.x there not suddenly going to have a legal copy of W10, a pirated version of Windows will remain a pirated Windows 10.

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Originally Posted by Myss_tree

Is it possible that at some point should in the future that Windows will only be licensed to run on Microsft hardware?

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Well from the published system requirements for W10 it seems that's the intention, specifically the dropping of the requirement for vendors to include the ability to disable "Secure Boot" mode.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

The claim that pirates also get a free copy was widely reported but turned out to be incorrect, while they can upgrade from an illegal copy of Windows 7/8.x there not suddenly going to have a legal copy of W10, a pirated version of Windows will remain a pirated Windows 10.

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That doesn't make sense? So does that mean the pirate, of a copy of win 10, cannot buy any extras? Why would MS ignore possible sales erm for a say reformed pirate

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Originally Posted by Saracen

I seem to remember, not long ago, getting a chorus of dismissive and even disdainful rebuttals (I don't mean you, Crossy) when I suggested that "free for 12 months" suggested a what did I call it, "change in direction of travel" for MS strategy on Windows, and that I suspected that the "change how we monetarise Windows" was leading pretty much to this .... Windows as a "service" not a product, and that that hinted at what changing the monetisation model implied.

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You can go back and read what I said to you, if you like. You were arguing that Windows 10 was going to be a subscription service, and I told you that nobody could know if that would be the case in the future but we had a solid assurance right then that Windows 10 would not be a subscription service. And it still won't be.

Windows 10 will be supported for years, and it will not be a subscription service. Eventually there might be a Windows that is, but I never said it wouldn't. "Free for the first 12 months" was only a foul-up of explaining W10's grace period for accepting the update. If Windows goes subs-based in the future, that won't validate your position at the time, and nor was there some kind of hint contained within this. It'll only be coincidence; MS did not set-up a year's grace period because of subliminal leanings towards subscription models.

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Originally Posted by excalibur2

That doesn't make sense? So does that mean the pirate, of a copy of win 10, cannot buy any extras? Why would MS ignore possible sales erm for a say reformed pirate

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That's a question everyone has asked, all we know for certain is that...

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With Windows 10, although non-Genuine PCs may be able to upgrade to Windows 10, the upgrade will not change the genuine state of the license. Non-Genuine Windows is not published by Microsoft. It is not properly licensed, or supported by Microsoft or a trusted partner. If a device was considered non-genuine or mislicensed prior to the upgrade, that device will continue to be considered non-genuine or mislicensed after the upgrade.

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How non-genuine Windows will be treated is open for speculation, some people say they will be prevented from receiving updates perhaps after the life-time of the device, that being the end of the year long free upgrade program.

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Just like Google's browser gets updated as and when required and updates are pushed from Google, the same will happen to Microsoft's OS.

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I made some adjustment so that it only gets updated when I want to. More than once did I lose all my existing tabs after an auto-update, so now, I won't update before I have the chance to save my tabs first.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

The claim that pirates also get a free copy was widely reported but turned out to be incorrect, while they can upgrade from an illegal copy of Windows 7/8.x there not suddenly going to have a legal copy of W10, a pirated version of Windows will remain a pirated Windows 10.

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Yes and no - they'll have a 'legal' copy of Win10 - it will just be an unsupported version of 10 (no updates, no customer support internally or externally). And they'll have the illusion of safety in knowing that the product came, unadulterated, from Microsoft, and not 2nd/3rd hand, from sites that some would call less than reputable. And there's no doubt in my mind that there will be a provision to make it into a fully operational product.

Are they doing this out of the goodness of their hearts? Not a chance. But I understand the reasoning behind doing it this way. Get them in, get them hooked, and make them part of law abiding world (and line their pockets with a bit more green).

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Originally Posted by Corky34

Well from the published system requirements for W10 it seems that's the intention, specifically the dropping of the requirement for vendors to include the ability to disable "Secure Boot" mode.

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(broke this in 1/2, as it is 2 very different topics)

This is not entirely accurate. The current rumor (there's no actual documentation that's been release from MS on the topic) is that if an OEM wants to be able to post a "Designed for Windows 10" sticker on the case, the machine will have to have secure boot as the default. OEM's have had the option of doing this, and similar things, for quite a while now. There are hundreds of sites/how-to's/etc to get around such things to install alternate OS's, non-approved software, etc.

As it stands, Windows 10 runs on pretty much anything Windows 8 does, and despite the 'official' MS specs, will run on even older kit. I've successfully installed it on a P3 600mhz machine with 512k memory and onboard ATI Rage video - well under the 'requirements'. Why? Because it's part of beta testing. Bend the rules, break the rules, make things break.

In my opinion, this one falls right in line on the list of other FUD regarding Win10, at #2, right behind subscriptions...

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

Yes and no - they'll have a 'legal' copy of Win10 - it will just be an unsupported version of 10 (no updates, no customer support internally or externally). And they'll have the illusion of safety in knowing that the product came, unadulterated, from Microsoft, and not 2nd/3rd hand, from sites that some would call less than reputable. And there's no doubt in my mind that there will be a provision to make it into a fully operational product.

Are they doing this out of the goodness of their hearts? Not a chance. But I understand the reasoning behind doing it this way. Get them in, get them hooked, and make them part of law abiding world (and line their pockets with a bit more green).

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Until it actually happens we can't be %100 certain, but going on the statement released by Microsoft they said "If a device was considered non-genuine or mislicensed prior to the upgrade, that device will continue to be considered non-genuine or mislicensed after the upgrade."

How they deal with those non-genuine versions of Windows 10 in the future remains to be seen, but your hypothesis about no updates, no customer support internally or externally does seem to be the general consensus, my guess would be that may well happen once the upgrade for free year is over and we find out the true price of Windows 10.

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

This is not entirely accurate. The current rumor (there's no actual documentation that's been release from MS on the topic) is that if an OEM wants to be able to post a "Designed for Windows 10" sticker on the case, the machine will have to have secure boot as the default. OEM's have had the option of doing this, and similar things, for quite a while now. There are hundreds of sites/how-to's/etc to get around such things to install alternate OS's, non-approved software, etc.

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I'm not sure if it counts as documentation but in a presentation from MS they used this slide that on it's own probably doesn't mean much, but when compared with the requirements that needed to be meet to carry a designed for Windows 8 logo things become a little clearer. The requirement of the designed for Windows 8 logo specified that every system must have a user-accessible switch to turn Secure Boot off, in the Windows 10 certification that mandated requirement has been dropped, perhaps OEMs will still include a user-accessible switch to turn Secure Boot off, or perhaps they will follow the path of least resistance and won't.

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Originally Posted by Corky34

I'm not sure if it counts as documentation but in a presentation from MS they used this slide that on it's own probably doesn't mean much, but when compared with the requirements that needed to be meet to carry a designed for Windows 8 logo things become a little clearer. The requirement of the designed for Windows 8 logo specified that every system must have a user-accessible switch to turn Secure Boot off, in the Windows 10 certification that mandated requirement has been dropped, perhaps OEMs will still include a user-accessible switch to turn Secure Boot off, or perhaps they will follow the path of least resistance and won't.

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I'm not seeing this as an issue, any more than I saw it as an issue for Win 8/8.1 for system builders. It's strictly an OEM issue, and their desire/need to have a sticker. The big outcry that I've been seeing has had nothing to do with what hoops the OEM builders have to jump through, but the FUD that builders and upgraders will have to have certain hardware, etc - which simply isn't true. Microsoft is still, in spite of the Surface and budding phone side of things, a software company, and there are multiple millions of systems out there that do not need to be replaced to upgrade to 10. They may be a lot of other things, but they aren't stupid - they're not going to lock out that market. Especially the business market, which has been historically very slow to upgrade anything, especially hardware.

That, and to put it politely, Peter Bright is a drama whore. Love Ars Technica - there are times I'll quote them here. Peter, not so much. But you'll note that the sub-title on that article says one thing, and then contradicts itself just ahead of the graphic - there's a major difference between the words MUST and OPTIONAL. And the OEMs are at a point where MS is no longer in a position to bully them. It's a small one, but Steam gave them an option with the SteamOS overlay, and as I said to Saracen, the Linux community has roughly 8 years until people are forced to abandon Win 8.1, and 5 more for Win 7, which is plenty of time to create something that gives the OEM's even more options. Like I said, MS isn't stupid. They won't let it get to that point.

As for the piracy thing, I'll not lose sleep regardless of how it goes. I personally have 6 legitimate Window 7 licenses and 2 for Win 8. That they're going to allow any upgrade path from a pirated piece of software is really sort of astounding, regardless of how they play it after. We'll just have to see what happens. Only a couple of more months to go.

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Originally Posted by Otherhand

You can go back and read what I said to you, if you like. You were arguing that Windows 10 was going to be a subscription service, and I told you that nobody could know if that would be the case in the future but we had a solid assurance right then that Windows 10 would not be a subscription service. And it still won't be.

Windows 10 will be supported for years, and it will not be a subscription service. Eventually there might be a Windows that is, but I never said it wouldn't. "Free for the first 12 months" was only a foul-up of explaining W10's grace period for accepting the update. If Windows goes subs-based in the future, that won't validate your position at the time, and nor was there some kind of hint contained within this. It'll only be coincidence; MS did not set-up a year's grace period because of subliminal leanings towards subscription models.

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No, I was not arguing that W10 "was" going to be a subscription service. I was arguing it might be. I was arguing that MS moves were consistent with that ... though they're consistent with other things, too. I was arguing that, at some point, it looks like becoming that, and that that appeared (and appears) to be a "direction of travel".

Even if it is a direction of travel, it could be two, five or ten years off. Or it could happen this year, with Win10. Personally, I consider that latter to be very unlikely. I think MS are entirely aware that that would cause a huge backlash.

Will it go subscription, eventually? I don't know. I don't have inside information, Not these days. But based on everything they've done, and said, from offering subscription versions of Office, to repurposing it as a "service", to remarks about changing monetisation strategy, I think it absolutely plausible that, at the very least, they're subtly floating the prospect to see how it goes. That, in all likelihood, us what's behind dropping of ambiguous remarks, like 'changing how it's monetised". It's actually quite subtle. If you drop a hint or two, plant a rumour and sit back and watch, you can assess reaction and, if negative, change course and deny everything, or delay implementation and change marketing strategy.

Not that subscription is inherently a bad idea. I'm sure, at the right price, it will appeal to some people. It just does not appeal to me, at all, and is actually a red line for me, so IF MS go that way, I leave the Windows world for upgrades and future system's OS.

What I fail to see about people saying its over is it goes subscription is...

I have unofficially been paying a subscription since XP, ie upgrade costs every new version.

So if 10 became a subscription for updates/new features and the cost is reasonable then I will just carry on as I have been... putting some money into keeping my OS legit and up to date every once in a while.

For something I use everyday a couple of quid every month is and would be excellent value.

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Originally Posted by Percy1983

What I fail to see about people saying its over is it goes subscription is...

I have unofficially been paying a subscription since XP, ie upgrade costs every new version.

So if 10 became a subscription for updates/new features and the cost is reasonable then I will just carry on as I have been... putting some money into keeping my OS legit and up to date every once in a while.

For something I use everyday a couple of quid every month is and would be excellent value.

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If you update with every new version. I don't.

Currently, I have over a dozen machines here, about 10 of which are still running XP. Have been for years. For what I want, XP did then and does now do what I need of it. So, that couple of quid a month is £20 a month, £240 a year, and over the years since XP, what? £2400 or so in total. And, since those machines STILL do niw what I need of them, it would be £2400 for absolutely no gain. A huge waste of money.

As I said, for some people a subscription may be a good idea. For me, it isn't. Just as with Photoshop, if it's a package, I decide when, and indeed if, I upgrade. And with PS, that tended to be every second or third release, saving me a couple of hundred quid every time I skipped one. A couple of those old PCs are still running Office versions dating back to Office XP, or even Office 97. But again, they do all I need, so while new versions may have new features, like an old, trusted screwdriver, they just do what I need. And not constantly upgrading Office has saved me hundreds.

I could go on, but I have a lot of old software that worked then, and still worked now. If you add a pound here, a couple of quid there, every month, month-in, month-out, it soon amounts to a serious sum.

And some of those machines aren't turned on often. Some may go weeks at a time with being used. So, I'd be paying a subscription for something I wasn't even using much.

Now sure, these are old machines and not subject to this Windows offer anyway. But today's new machines are tomorrow's old ones. Fast forward a few years and, if I go subscription, then I'll have been paying out, use it or not.

As I said, if it suits you, great, go for it. But my situation is, clearly, different to yours.

They keep changing stuff without reason. They're more and more like Apple everyday.

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

Yes and no - they'll have a 'legal' copy of Win10 - it will just be an unsupported version of 10 (no updates, no customer support internally or externally). And they'll have the illusion of safety in knowing that the product came, unadulterated, from Microsoft, and not 2nd/3rd hand, from sites that some would call less than reputable. And there's no doubt in my mind that there will be a provision to make it into a fully operational product.

Are they doing this out of the goodness of their hearts? Not a chance. But I understand the reasoning behind doing it this way. Get them in, get them hooked, and make them part of law abiding world (and line their pockets with a bit more green).

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h'mm what pirate is going to update to win 10 if they can't get updates for bugs and say MS anti virus etc

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Originally Posted by Percy1983

What I fail to see about people saying its over is it goes subscription is...
I have unofficially been paying a subscription since XP, ie upgrade costs every new version.

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Fair enough, other people haven't been buying every new version - I for one, skipped both Vista and Windows8. And in both cases I've been glad that I did.

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Originally Posted by Percy1983

So if 10 became a subscription for updates/new features and the cost is reasonable then I will just carry on as I have been... putting some money into keeping my OS legit and up to date every once in a while. For something I use everyday a couple of quid every month is and would be excellent value.

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Hmm, and therein lies the problem, if* Microsoft go for a Windows subscription - Windows360 in effect - then how much and, more importantly, what happens to those people who decide to let their subscription lapse? Some suggestions I've seen have perhaps downgrading itself to a kind of tablet/netbook mode, so only one program at a time and limitations on memory size etc. Others have suggested that a machine with a lapsed subscription will work, but you get no new content from Microsoft, and if you're using OneDrive then that machine won't sync.

(* I've underlined "if" because all the gen I've seen have said that Microsoft themselves "aren't sure" how they're going to proceed with this - many options are being looked at).

Oh and for me, any Windows subscription would be poor value - my main system is Ubuntu Linux, which cost me exactly £0/$0 - and personally I'd prefer to pay that "couple of quid every month" for Ubuntu than that god-awful collection of just-flying-in-formation parts that is Windows. Soon as AAA gaming titles appear on Linux then as far as Microsoft is concerned, I'm "outta here".

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Originally Posted by excalibur2

h'mm what pirate is going to update to win 10 if they can't get updates for bugs and say MS anti virus etc

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I didn't say a thing about defender. Most people I know don't use it as a first line anyway, if at all. As for anything else, it's just speculation based on things that have been said or put in to print by people from MS. That they've considered offering anything at all is a complete turnabout, and far more than *I* would have ever expected. I won't get into the potential ramifications for shop owners who, at some point, may have to work on those machines.

I don't see this as Windows as subscription, they'll make the money by selling their cloud services / ad revenue. I wouldn't be surprised though if they charged a license fee to Hardware suppliers and or corporate users.

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Originally Posted by GazP172

I don't see this as Windows as subscription, they'll make the money by selling their cloud services / ad revenue. I wouldn't be surprised though if they charged a license fee to Hardware suppliers and or corporate users.

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Not from me they won't. I don't want their cloud services if they're free, let alone paying for them. And while I'm happy to pay for both OS and application software, I do not want ad-supported software, even if free. I'd rather buy it, ad-free .... or use something else. Or just do without.

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Originally Posted by Saracen

Not from me they won't. I don't want their cloud services if they're free, let alone paying for them. And while I'm happy to pay for both OS and application software, I do not want ad-supported software, even if free. I'd rather buy it, ad-free .... or use something else. Or just do without.

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I should imagine their cloud services will be free for the basics just like its free now when you use outlook.com or Bing a bit like Android / Google. But they'll offer a more complete package for people / organisations that need that bit more e.g Office365 for a charge. As for ads if you use Google, Gmail, Outlook, Google maps or what ever, you get ads surely or have to pay for the service. If I put it this way, you buy a PC with the OS as a 1 off, then browse to Google do a search and get adverts then log into webmail and get adverts again. What's the difference?

The other thing is sometimes the adverts can be good, such as via a mapping service to show me where a local petrol station is for example, this will generate money and is useful.

The other source of revenue would be the Windows Store, so again like Android.

I am wondering if in the future we will be the installer process change so that all apps must be installed via the Windows Store.

That way, Windows could be a free "service" that will be subsidised by Windows Store purchases.....could explain a lot of what's being said/implied.

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Originally Posted by GazP172

I should imagine their cloud services will be free for the basics just like its free now when you use outlook.com or Bing a bit like Android / Google. But they'll offer a more complete package for people / organisations that need that bit more e.g Office365 for a charge. As for ads if you use Google, Gmail, Outlook, Google maps or what ever, you get ads surely or have to pay for the service. If I put it this way, you buy a PC with the OS as a 1 off, then browse to Google do a search and get adverts then log into webmail and get adverts again. What's the difference?

The other thing is sometimes the adverts can be good, such as via a mapping service to show me where a local petrol station is for example, this will generate money and is useful.

The other source of revenue would be the Windows Store, so again like Android.

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Perhaps, but like I said, not from me they won't. I don't use cloud storage or services. Period. Free or otherwise. I avoid almost all Google services like the plague. I don't use Google for search, run my own email, not webmail, and don't use Google maps, either. On my one Android device, I keep GPS permanently disabled, and don't use it for ANY activity that involves personal information.

I also don't use smartphones, etc, for SatNav. Ever. Nor do I want petrol station adverts. Ever. My standalone SatNav, with no net connection, finds garages if I need one, but in some 15 years of having that capability, I've yet to need it. I just keep an eye on fuel levels, and fill up before needing to make an effort to find a fuel station.

In general, you may well be right. But what I said was not from me, they won't. Personally, I don't want to see ad's, on anything, from anybody, ever, if I can possibly avoid it. I certainly do not, under any circumstances, want an ad-funded OS. If that's where MS are going, then I can say for a certainty they're going without me. I will pay, ONCE, for an OS, but I won't pay a subscription, and I'm more likely to subscribe that put up with an ad-funded OS.

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Originally Posted by shaithis

I am wondering if in the future we will be the installer process change so that all apps must be installed via the Windows Store.

That way, Windows could be a free "service" that will be subsidised by Windows Store purchases.....could explain a lot of what's being said/implied.

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Dunno, but if so, it's another move that sees me leave Windows for Linux. That, to me, on my personal computer, is as acceptable as letting Steam control my access to games. Hell, no. No way.

And just to pile on the evil, Windows Insiders (those of us actually beta testing Win10) get a free upgrade to Win 10 RTM. That's roughly 4 million people.

http://www.windowscentral.com/window...ws-10-rtm-free
http://www.neowin.net/news/nearly-4-...a-free-upgrade
http://www.pcworld.com/article/29210...m-version.html

And a few hundred other links of a similar nature....

It's not too late... this one is pretty much unconditional.

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

And just to pile on the evil, Windows Insiders (those of us actually beta testing Win10) get a free upgrade to Win 10 RTM. That's roughly 4 million people.

http://www.windowscentral.com/window...ws-10-rtm-free
http://www.neowin.net/news/nearly-4-...a-free-upgrade
http://www.pcworld.com/article/29210...m-version.html

And a few hundred other links of a similar nature....

It's not too late... this one is pretty much unconditional.

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As an insider it's still confusing as will we be able to download an upgrade iso or installation iso, e.g. I transferred my insider win 10 from a 40g hard drive to a 1tb drive and I was only able to do this because I downloaded the installation iso for build 10074.

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

And just to pile on the evil, Windows Insiders (those of us actually beta testing Win10) get a free upgrade to Win 10 RTM. That's roughly 4 million people.

http://www.windowscentral.com/window...ws-10-rtm-free
http://www.neowin.net/news/nearly-4-...a-free-upgrade
http://www.pcworld.com/article/29210...m-version.html

And a few hundred other links of a similar nature....

It's not too late... this one is pretty much unconditional.

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Was just reading about this after looking at the articles you linked. The guy later clarified it still requires 7/8 Etc key so it's basically part of the same free upgrade deal for existing users.

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Originally Posted by Saracen

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Originally Posted by GazP172

I should imagine their cloud services will be free for the basics just like its free now when you use outlook.com or Bing a bit like Android / Google. But they'll offer a more complete package for people / organisations that need that bit more e.g Office365 for a charge. As for ads if you use Google, Gmail, Outlook, Google maps or what ever, you get ads surely or have to pay for the service. If I put it this way, you buy a PC with the OS as a 1 off, then browse to Google do a search and get adverts then log into webmail and get adverts again. What's the difference?

The other thing is sometimes the adverts can be good, such as via a mapping service to show me where a local petrol station is for example, this will generate money and is useful.

The other source of revenue would be the Windows Store, so again like Android.

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Perhaps, but like I said, not from me they won't. I don't use cloud storage or services. Period. Free or otherwise. I avoid almost all Google services like the plague. I don't use Google for search, run my own email, not webmail, and don't use Google maps, either. On my one Android device, I keep GPS permanently disabled, and don't use it for ANY activity that involves personal information.

I also don't use smartphones, etc, for SatNav. Ever. Nor do I want petrol station adverts. Ever. My standalone SatNav, with no net connection, finds garages if I need one, but in some 15 years of having that capability, I've yet to need it. I just keep an eye on fuel levels, and fill up before needing to make an effort to find a fuel station.

In general, you may well be right. But what I said was not from me, they won't. Personally, I don't want to see ad's, on anything, from anybody, ever, if I can possibly avoid it. I certainly do not, under any circumstances, want an ad-funded OS. If that's where MS are going, then I can say for a certainty they're going without me. I will pay, ONCE, for an OS, but I won't pay a subscription, and I'm more likely to subscribe that put up with an ad-funded OS.

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Microsoft are being made to change their model by its competitors, the Market has spoken, people have jumped in bed with Apple and Google and MS are having to change or die if its not too late already. From what I can tell they are basically mirroring the competition.

What are your thoughts on Googles model, they seem to use ads/services/track personal details/App store to fund their OS and so does Apple but with the added bonus of Hardware sales.

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Originally Posted by GazP172

Microsoft are being made to change their model by its competitors, the Market has spoken, people have jumped in bed with Apple and Google and MS are having to change or die if its not too late already. From what I can tell they are basically mirroring the competition.

What are your thoughts on Googles model, they seem to use ads/services/track personal details/App store to fund their OS and so does Apple but with the added bonus of Hardware sales.

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It's something that has gone through my mind, the problem I have is that Windows for home users has been quite a revenue stream for so many years that I find it hard to reconcile Microsoft giving it away free. On top of that is that they can't leverage hardware sales from giving it away......so you are left with adverts and app purchases.

Both advert and app profits will be linked to how useful the Windows store is, which currently is truly abysmal (IMO)....so if they want to go that route, the store needs a serious shake-up.

"I am wondering if in the future we will be the installer process change so that all apps must be installed via the Windows Store."

That is a serious issue for me. I want to choose what programs I install, not what MS things I should install. I want to go direct to the program website to download (thereby ensuring MS do not get their cut of the price). This walled garden approach is one of the key reasons I will not jump to apple

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Originally Posted by jag272

Was just reading about this after looking at the articles you linked. The guy later clarified it still requires 7/8 Etc key so it's basically part of the same free upgrade deal for existing users.

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Looks like Gabe was holding on a bit too tightly to the bottle... and he confuses it more later on. Reason number 384,399,291 that communicating official business (or anything else, for that matter) on Twitter is stupid. What I'm more interested in finding out is if the Insider Preview will upgrade to RTM directly, or are they going to force a clean install.

Currently running 10 on a machine that is similar, but slightly lower, in stats to my main system, and I'm finding that it my gaming experience is consistently outperforming the main machine, by anywhere from 5 to 25%, and both machines are running DX10 hardware, so no advantage gained from DX12. As a result, I'm sort of seriously contemplating doing the upgrade on my main box, and if it will upgrade straight to RTM (which I don't recall 7 doing) then so much the better.

I think people are reading way too much into the 'free' thing. It's not free forever, to start. It's not free to Enterprise users, period (whom I will guarantee have far more of a financial interest and input than pretty much the entire consumer base, and by a wide margin)

The following, you're just going to have to take my word for, but I have no reason to lie to you -

It's not a walled garden. At all. The ONLY program I have not been able to install is an MS program - Microsoft Security Essentials, and that's because it's been superseded by the latest version of Defender, and that happened back with Win8. I have yet to install any program that doesn't function properly with Win10, including Winamp, which hasn't had a new release in years (despite the 'demise' of Winamp, Shoutcast radio is still going strong, and it's my favorite interface for it). I've installed it on to machines that are below the listed requirements. I've installed it on to machines that did poorly with their initial OS (Dell minibook ran horribly on Win7, runs like a champ on 10). Not that I'd really advise it, but I've installed it on a P3, with 512mb of memory and a 10gb HD, and it ran.

And with no intent at disrespect, but where on earth did the idea that MS was even thinking about forcing use of their store come from? Seriously, what COMPUTER company has a closed system like that? Pretty sure there's nothing I cannot run on the Surface, which is the MS branded hardware. The only limitation for Macs is a lack of software being produced because, after all this time, there are still certain sectors that don't take Apple seriously as a computer developer. Tablets are not computers, and neither are phones, despite protestations to the contrary. Not in the traditional sense of the word, at any rate. They are closed systems, and were designed to be that way.

And in case it's been forgotten, there are still some people (even here on Hexus) that carry their hate for MS on their sleeves because of the integration of IE years ago. Do you folks honestly believe the EU will let MS get away with that on a wholesale level? Can't have it both ways, folks.

Your preview experience may not be reflected in the final product.

As for free forever....if you look at the statements coming out of Microsoft......"Windows 10 will be free for the duration of the device" and "Windows 10 is the last version of Windows"....combine them and what do you get?

Now, let your mind wander around the thought of.....if those statements are true, how will they monetise the product?

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

Looks like Gabe was holding on a bit too tightly to the bottle... and he confuses it more later on. Reason number 384,399,291 that communicating official business (or anything else, for that matter) on Twitter is stupid. What I'm more interested in finding out is if the Insider Preview will upgrade to RTM directly, or are they going to force a clean install.

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Ye seems he's made quite a mess. The initial statement just struck me as odd so I read around a bit more and found that bit about still requiring a 7/8 key because if they gave you a flat upgrade then surely theyd be opening up a channel for pirates to get legitimate versions free.

What I think they actually mean is that you can upgrade directly from Insider to RTM at which point it will put you into trial mode and ask you to activate your key. As for installing an non-Insider systems, I assume that will be done via the update people believe to be the Win10 installer that popped up a while ago and that will automatically inherit the key like any other registered upgrade.

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Originally Posted by shaithis

Your preview experience may not be reflected in the final product.

As for free forever....if you look at the statements coming out of Microsoft......"Windows 10 will be free for the duration of the device" and "Windows 10 is the last version of Windows"....combine them and what do you get?

Now, let your mind wander around the thought of.....if those statements are true, how will they monetise the product?

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In order for my experience to change radically from what it is right now, they'd have to make an entirely different product. I'm not sure they're capable of doing that inside of 2 months. Or 2 years.

As for the Last Version of Windows thing, I take from that the same statement that came out of Cuppertino when they said OSX is the last version for the Mac. I take it mean that, from here on out, it will just be Windows. Period.

And when I combine your 2 quotes, I get 2 combined, non-related advertising blurbs, made by different people. Free forever? I'm kind of curious where that came from. It's a free upgrade for the first year, with a valid key. I suspect I know how they're going to handle the upgrades - they've sort of inadvertently shown how when downloading the previews. (They give you a key, if you're wondering. Which would answer the 'forever' question'. Even though nobody said forever.)

And they will monetize it the same way they always have - they'll get their cut from the OEM's, they'll get their cut from Enterprise (which has ALWAYS been the lions share), they'll get their cut from people upgrading from XP/Vista, and after a year, they'll get their cut from everyone, because then they'll have to purchase it.

“This is more than a one-time upgrade,” Myerson wrote. “Once a Windows device is upgraded to Windows 10, we will continue to keep it current for the supported lifetime of the device—at no additional charge.”

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Originally Posted by shaithis

“This is more than a one-time upgrade,” Myerson wrote. “Once a Windows device is upgraded to Windows 10, we will continue to keep it current for the supported lifetime of the device—at no additional charge.”

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How many times are they supposed to give you something for free? And while most people don't bother with the EULA, but buying Windows always entitled you to one machine and one machine only. They've just never enforced it.

It's not my place in the world to try to convince you or anyone else. A mind made up is a hard thing to change, and all that. Windows 7 is good for almost another 5 years, so don't change if you don't want. I certainly won't force you in to it. But I will continue to present the facts about it, as I am observing them, to any and all who continue to read - and please save the negativity for something you haven't even tried for someone else. It makes you look petty. So do out of context quotes. Thanks.

Anyway the end result is:- unless MS can persuade motherboard makers to install a chip ( a type of dongle) on the motherboard then with software, pirates will always find a way of making illegal win 10...... genuine.

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Originally Posted by excalibur2

Anyway the end result is:- unless MS can persuade motherboard makers to install a chip ( a type of dongle) on the motherboard then with software, pirates will always find a way of making illegal win 10...... genuine.

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Doubt that would even work, let alone the privacy issues involved. The reality is that were already at the stage where Windows hacks are done via BIOS and load in before windows does. In that situation the hack is likely to always be able to intercept windows and return its own response, unless Microsoft find a way to bypass the BIOS itself in it's checks.

With Windows I think its reached the point where Microsoft simply need to incentivise legitimate buyers. Nothing wrong with adding more layers off security to prevent piracy or trying to obfuscate the required code etc but if they get overly aggressive like chips on motherboards I think it will just blow back in their face. For something as core to PCs as Windows I think its best to just accept it will get hacked and pirated, what Microsoft are doing is trying to encourage as many people to upgrade to the new system as possible, including previous pirates.

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

How many times are they supposed to give you something for free? And while most people don't bother with the EULA, but buying Windows always entitled you to one machine and one machine only. They've just never enforced it.

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One machine only for OEM licences. One machine at a time, transferable, for retail licences.

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Originally Posted by GazP172

....

What are your thoughts on Googles model, they seem to use ads/services/track personal details/App store to fund their OS and so does Apple but with the added bonus of Hardware sales.

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My view of Google is that they are the spawn of Satan, and that I hate, loathe, despise and detest their business model, and that I hope they rot in the deepest circle of hell for eternity. Doubled.

I have suspicions about MS. I'm way, way past that with Google. So far past it I'm barely in the same universe, and certainly not in the same galaxy. If I ever pull a thorn out of a genie's foot and get three wishes, one of them will be for Google and all it's works to cease to exist.

In other words, their No. 1 fan, I ain't.

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Originally Posted by Saracen

One machine only for OEM licences. One machine at a time, transferable, for retail licences.

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XP, before SP1, definitely fit the bill across both OEM and retail. Can't begin to count the number of times I actually had to call MS to re-activate or validate an install because of a cpu or video card upgrade. As for 7, the wording changed slightly - or should I say, the wording disappeared. It now no longer says if you can or cannot install the retail on a second computer after the first computer is taken out of service.

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Originally Posted by Microsoft End User License Terms

2. INSTALLATION AND USE RIGHTS.

a. One Copy per Computer. Except as allowed in Section 2 (b) below, you may install one copy of the software on one computer. That computer is the “licensed computer.”

b. Family Pack. If you are a “Qualified Family Pack User”, you may install one copy of the software marked as “Family Pack” on three computers in your household for use by people who reside there.

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Note the lack of designation.

You can, however, transfer the software to a 3rd party if you give up all of the media, packaging, etc.

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Originally Posted by Microsoft End User License Terms

18. TRANSFER TO A THIRD PARTY. a. Software Other Than Windows Anytime Upgrade. The first user of the software may make a one time transfer of the software and this agreement, by transferring the original media, the certificate of authenticity, the product key and the proof of purchase directly to a third party. The first user must remove the software before transferring it separately from the computer. The first user may not retain any copies of the software.

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I'm also aware that certain EULA's don't necessarily hold any weight in the EU - I can only comment on the rules set forth here in the US. But I'm 100% certain MS has all their I's dotted and all their T's crossed properly, regardless of where they're doing business.

And as far as this free upgrade goes, it's pretty clear that the upgrade will be to the appropriate RTM version, which you may as well translate to OEM, since manufacturers don't use retail media. So, even by your definition, it's one and done.

Which begs the question - How many times are they supposed to give you something for free? (you being a generic term, and not you specifically)

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Originally Posted by cjs150

"I am wondering if in the future we will be the installer process change so that all apps must be installed via the Windows Store."

That is a serious issue for me. I want to choose what programs I install, not what MS things I should install. I want to go direct to the program website to download (thereby ensuring MS do not get their cut of the price). This walled garden approach is one of the key reasons I will not jump to apple

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* First off, can you really see the likes of Adobe etc wanting to give up control of their stuff to Microsoft? Especially if the move to Windows Store also means that they don't get to do IAP's.
* Secondly, if apps are installed via Windows Store - how exactly will that prevent sideload? When all's said and done, "install" is just a case of dropping files onto a box and updating registry. So even if there's no official way to do it then there'll be plenty of unofficial ways. Oh, and that's ignoring folks like InstallShield who've got a lot of money tied up in installer tech - lawsuit time?
* Thirdly, if it's installed via Windows Store then presumably updates get delivered in the same manner. So instead of umpteen update checkers (for some god-forsaken vendors they have one per product ffs) we get one. I want that so much that I'd pay MS for that feature alone
* Fourthly, while I can see top-shelf titles making it into Windows Store, the sheer effort required to "certify" even a tiny fraction of the available Windows10-compatible titles is mind boggling. I think if Microsoft's entire staff do nothing else for the next decade they still couldn't do it.
* Fifthly, legacy products - one of Windows biggest attractions is that, in most cases, a program designed for an earlier release will still work. My kids still have apps on their W8.1 boxes that were designed for XP. I really can't see any sane Microsoft wanting to throw that away.

No, to me at least, Windows Store may become the preferred route for app delivery, but no way in heck that it'll ever be the only route.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

XP, before SP1, definitely fit the bill across both OEM and retail. Can't begin to count the number of times I actually had to call MS to re-activate or validate an install because of a cpu or video card upgrade. As for 7, the wording changed slightly - or should I say, the wording disappeared. It now no longer says if you can or cannot install the retail on a second computer after the first computer is taken out of service.


Note the lack of designation.

You can, however, transfer the software to a 3rd party if you give up all of the media, packaging, etc.



I'm also aware that certain EULA's don't necessarily hold any weight in the EU - I can only comment on the rules set forth here in the US. But I'm 100% certain MS has all their I's dotted and all their T's crossed properly, regardless of where they're doing business.

And as far as this free upgrade goes, it's pretty clear that the upgrade will be to the appropriate RTM version, which you may as well translate to OEM, since manufacturers don't use retail media. So, even by your definition, it's one and done.

....

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Do you have a section 17, right before the s18 you quoted? What does it say?

Because mine, and this is Windows 7 Pro, retail licence, says

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17 Transfer to another computer

a. Software other than Windows Anytime Upgrade

You may transfer the software and install it on another computer for your use. That computer becomes the licenced computer. You may not do this to share this licence between computers.

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Section 17 b covers Anytime Upgrades, but that isn't what I have.

Now this is a UK (or EU) licence, and I don't know what your US licence says, but here, no, it's not one and done, not for RETAIL licences. For OEM, yes, except in specific circumstances, but not for retail versions. It's one "at a time", as I said. As I use this on a test system, this licence has probably been installed and activated, though sometimes it took a phone call, 100+ times, on different machines. And it certainly isn't MS doing it out of kindness. It's them simply following the terms of my licence. It's also, by the way, why I have the retail version, not the considerably cheaper OEM version.

So, again .... one at a time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saracen

Do you have a section 17, right before the s18 you quoted? What does it say?

Because mine, and this is Windows 7 Pro, retail licence, says

Section 17 b covers Anytime Upgrades, but that isn't what I have.

Now this is a UK (or EU) licence, and I don't know what your US licence says, but here, no, it's not one and done, not for RETAIL licences. For OEM, yes, except in specific circumstances, but not for retail versions. It's one "at a time", as I said. As I use this on a test system, this licence has probably been installed and activated, though sometimes it took a phone call, 100+ times, on different machines. And it certainly isn't MS doing it out of kindness. It's them simply following the terms of my licence. It's also, by the way, why I have the retail version, not the considerably cheaper OEM version.

So, again .... one at a time.

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I stand corrected. I looked online, and somewhat interestingly, the terms on the MS site do not match, 100%, with my local copy, which references the anytime upgrade, but not the one machine at a time (there is no a and b - just the b content). There's also a subsection c under section 2 that I posted above, which isn't in the local copy.

They say it's subject to change. Actually glad to be incorrect on this one. Thanks for pointing out the error.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GuidoLS

I stand corrected. I looked online, and somewhat interestingly, the terms on the MS site do not match, 100%, with my local copy, which references the anytime upgrade, but not the one machine at a time (there is no a and b - just the b content). There's also a subsection c under section 2 that I posted above, which isn't in the local copy.

They say it's subject to change. Actually glad to be incorrect on this one. Thanks for pointing out the error.

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Licence T&C's do evolve over time. This is, IMHO of course, both utterly reasonable, and .... dangerous. They can't realistically be pickled in Aspic, enxased in Amber, for all time. Circumstances change, as do the necessary licence terms, not least when new purchase/upgrade routes appear. IIRC, the "Anywhere" upgrade basically said the upgraded version incorporated the same transferabilty rights as the version bring upgraded. So, upgrade a retail licence and you got transferabilty. Upgrade an OEM version and you didn't. But Icdidn't use it so I didn't pay the Anywhere options much attention.

The dangerous bit is that I've been watching MS (and a few others) licence T&Cs for quite a while, half-expecting exactly such a curtailment to be snuck in via the back door. Of course, I'm not the only journalist keeping a guard watch on the pages of legalese, so if it does happen, it'll come out.

The licence T&C's is one of the things I'll be carefully checking before even considering a Win7 to Win 10, or Win8 to win 10, upgrade. If we lose that transferabilty option, that kills Win10 stone dead for me. If, as some have suggested, it ties Win10 to a single device, then no Win10 for me. I haven't seen anything (yet) to suggest MS have that in mind, but I'm alert to the possibility.

All told, my feeling is that there's about 5% information and 95% speculation as to what MS have planned for Win's future. A fair bit of that speculation, and indeed the information, is consistent with some of my 'nightmare' routes, like subscription (over medium term, not necessarily quite yet) but it's certainly also consistent with things that aren't subscription, etc.

Perhaps illuminating is that MS can't dail to be aware of the speculation boinging round the net, and a firm, absolure commitment not to go sub in, say, the next 2, or 5, or 10 years is noticable by it's absence. This may or may not mean anything, but it worries me a fair bit. Hence me having made preparations, tests, test machines, etc, ebabling a rapid switch to Linux if, repeat IF they go that way.

Well Saracen more speculation from your post:- So you are using Win 10 and in three years time MS go over to subscription then would that mean MS would send an update that would make your win 10 inoperable..well surely information on the net would advise not to download this update. Of course you would be stuck with win 10 that could not be updated for bugs, but that could be a small problem if win 10 turns out to be a great OS from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by excalibur2

Well Saracen more speculation from your post:- So you are using Win 10 and in three years time MS go over to subscription then would that mean MS would send an update that would make your win 10 inoperable..well surely information on the net would advise not to download this update. Of course you would be stuck with win 10 that could not be updated for bugs, but that could be a small problem if win 10 turns out to be a great OS from the beginning.

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Unless (and until) the situation is clarified in relation to pricing, etc, and EXACTLY what the "free" bit is all about, with details, and bearing in mind I do read T&C's, I won't be upgrading to Win10 in the first place. Unless I can be sure of several aspects, including any changes to T&Cs as a result of the "free" upgrade, I'll be keeping my machines as they are now. How great W10 is or isn't won't matter if it's no use to me for other reasons.