Microsoft ad banner nags you in Windows 10 File Explorer

[Saracen]

..... Wonder if they'll be smart enough to release the Enterprise version in a form prosumer/power users can buy....

Well now, wouldn't that be nice.

It might even entice me back.

One caveat - a version I "buy", not one I rent monthly. That would be a non-starter, just like Photoshop was.

[peterb]

Any one know if this affects the pro version, or is it just the home?

[Ozaron]

Any one know if this affects the pro version, or is it just the home?

I don't have Pro, but I'm currently running Enterprise, and the option is enabled here by default too. I would assume it's a blanket enabled option. That said I don't remember seeing the ad, here at work or at home. Keeping OneDrive away keeps the ad away.

[chockimon]

Most American companies are in bed with something truly evil and abhorrent. We have the latest CIA revelations that the CIA is deliberately and unlawfully doing it's best to affect everyone's computers and TV's with malware, trojans and viruses. Yet Wiki leaks offers to give these companies the CIA's software so they can plug these holes and not one of them is even interested. Go figure! America corp, you're truly are the scourge of humanity. Do humanity a great service and go and find yourselves a moral compass.

[Ttaskmaster]

A Smartmeter "spying" on users is overstating it a bit, but nonetheless, such meters can be used to provide a granulatity of information from which it could be inferred, for example, when I'm away on holiday.

I think you'll find it's far easier just to watch your house, rather than hack into the telemetry, decrypt it, analyse it to ascertain when you're in and only then move in to nick yer telly...

But I think they were talking about water companies spying on them, through our own meters.

Add to that that I do, and prefer, to pay quarterly in arrears, and while a smart meter might offer benefits to the company in terms of meter reading, it offers NOTHING to me that I need or want,

Someone stealing your water supply, leaving you to pay for months on end, for example?
Slow leaks?
Burst pipe?
These and other things can be a problem and Smart meters help us track this far quicker and more accurately than any other option. The latter especially, as the control centres get immediate alarms instead of relying on what other systems we do have or, worse still, waiting on calls to progress through customer call centres.

but risks giving that granularity of data that could compromise my privacy of movement.

We likely have far more granular and important data on you in our customer database, I imagine. Bank details, perhaps?
We have whole teams of legal people, each covering specific aspects of customer data laws and queries. I'm so glad I don't handle any kind of billing!!

So yeah, damn right I'll refuse a smart meter up to and until it is legally mandatory, and then, I will insist on tbe sampling rate turned down to the absolute minimum required solely for billing.

IIRC, it's currently every 15 minutes, which is what helps us detect leaks so quickly, as well as identify fraudulent connections. We're up to about 1,000 a day being detected and fixed, at the minute.
I don't think you get to decide the sampling rate, though.

All a smart meter is to me is one more expensive white elephant we consumers are being expected to pay for, and one more item for opportunistic hackers to mess with.

Even if you're the most frugal water user, the sheer volume wasted by other customers keeps your bills high. If everyone pays only for what they use, that tends to ease things overall.

Conventional meters have worked perfectly well for me my entire house-owning life, and I see no point to or benefit in changing.

With those customers who have had leaks, it can take months to identify and trace down. Smart meters can help trace it within hours.

[Enverex]

What a load of rubbishing rubbishness. Ads in your apps is one thing, but ads in your OS? GTFO!!

Technically OneDrive still is the app, no?

No, because the advert is FOR OneDrive, not IN OneDrive. It's appearing IN Windows Explorer.

[Ttaskmaster]

No, because the advert is FOR OneDrive, not IN OneDrive. It's appearing IN Windows Explorer.

Doesn't OneDrive integrate and appear as a folder within Windows Explorer, though?
So it's still part of OneDrive, but WE is accessible as part of OD and thus the adverts are shown... hence disabling OD stops the adverts?

[Enverex]

That sounds like an attempt at a "get out of jail free" clause though. They ship OneDrive with Windows, OneDrive integrates into Explorer by default, therefore they can display adverts in Explorer via OneDrive without the user ever agreeing to or installing anything. So as far as anyone should be concerned, it is part of Windows.

[Ttaskmaster]

That sounds like an attempt at a "get out of jail free" clause though. They ship OneDrive with Windows, OneDrive integrates into Explorer by default, therefore they can display adverts in Explorer via OneDrive without the user ever agreeing to or installing anything. So as far as anyone should be concerned, it is part of Windows.

I expect the agreement is part of that EULA thing that no-one ever reads before clicking the 'I Agree, Install All The Things' button...

Certainly no different to iPhones automatically syncing any photo you take (including naughty nudie private ones) to The iCloud, as a number of famous actresses recently found to their detriment.

But it seems only able to do this if you have the sync option enabled. It still comes with the facility to disable and even remove OneDrive.

[Saracen]

I think you'll find it's far easier just to watch your house, rather than hack into the telemetry, decrypt it, analyse it to ascertain when you're in and only then move in to nick yer telly...

But I think they were talking about water companies spying on them, through our own meters.

I was referring primarily to power utility smart meters, but since you mention it, there are two flaws in your logic.

First, to monitor my house means the scumbag has to already have targeted me. If that happens, I'm targeted regardless of the presence of a smartmeter. However, anyone that has access to a smartmeter's transmitted and recorded data can see at a glance if typical daily usage has dropped for a period of several days. That would allow anyone with access to such data to point said scumbag at my address, which they can then verify is currently unoccupied.

All this requires is that someone with legit access abuses it. You would not, I presume, try tp suggest that such has not happened before? If you do, I:d point you an MR/Ms Manning, etc, and if CIA, DoD, defence contractors, etc, can commit treason by downloading highly classified data and publishing it, it's not above possibility that an accounts clerk might take a backhander for a target address.

Or at the other end of the spectrum, would you maintain that a police officer has never run an unauthorised database lookup? And yes, I know such things are logged and can drop the perpetrator in deep poop these days, but it has not always been so, and even now, I wouldn't want to bet against abuses.

None of that requires the meter to be hacked. Merely that legitimately collected data be abused.

But you refer to hacking the meter as if it were such an unimaginable possibility. I beg to differ .... and so do the National Crime Agency and National Cyber Security Centre, who both cite one of the largest, and growing, cyber threats to individuals as the IoT, and among that, specifically mention smart meters.

IF smart meter security is properly implemented, then it will be quite hard to crack. But all it takes is a single weakness to be found, and the abuse can become widespread, quite fast.

Any security analyst will tell you that the first way to reduce threat levels is to minimise points of exposure. The more points at which you can be compromised, the higher the risk of it happening. So, from a security perspective, analyse systems and remove points that aren't necessary, then harden and defend those that are necessary.

Which brings me back to what MY benefit is from smart meters?

As I said, from power utility meters. as far as I'm concerned, ZERO. I already monitor gas and electricity usage, myself, daily. And I pay for metered usage, so "leaks" prior to the meter don't go on my bill. If undiscovered leaks elsewhere drive up costs, which then impact my bill in terms of unit price, I can't see it being enough for me to care. And while that makes the case for others having such meters, to bring down wastage elsewhere, it's so argument for me fitting one.

Water meters, as I said, are (in my opinion) a different case. First, most of us don't have a choice as water companies managed to get government to give then the ability to mandate them. SO FAR, power utility companies have no such ability.

And as for the user determining the data granularity, I don't know about water meters but they can do so on power meters. For now.


I work on a very simple principle when it comes to data security. The ONLY way to maximise privacy is to not give ANY data to ANYBODY, unless there is a good reason (to me) to do so. It doesn't much matter to me what the data is. Unless it's in my interests, I give nothing away, data-wise. My "interest" is as defined by me, though. I say some things on here that are personal, and though I'm just a username, my actual identity is certainly no secret. My "interest" is that I want to be active here. The converse is that I refuse to give even HMRC my home phone number, because I don't want phone calls from them at home. Mind you, I'm sure they can get it if they really want, but even then, they'll hit the call screening system.

Even if you're the most frugal water user, the sheer volume wasted by other customers keeps your bills high. If everyone pays only for what they use, that tends to ease things overall.

So by inference, if that is what is keeping our bills "high", we can all expect to see water leakages fixed promptly, industry leakage levels drop significantly and those "high" bills come down, now that smart meters are becoming prolific? And it justifies the billions it's costing to do it, nationally? And we, the customers, aren't going to end up paying for those meters in those "high" bills?

Ha, ha ha, hooo hooo hoooo. Stop it, mate, it hurts.

[Saracen]

I expect the agreement is part of that EULA thing that no-one ever reads before clicking the 'I Agree, Install All The Things' button...

No-one? AHEM .... /raises hand. I do.

And it's one reason why I junked Win10. Not the only one, but part of it. And why I don't have a smart phone.

[Ttaskmaster]

None of that requires the meter to be hacked. Merely that legitimately collected data be abused.

At which I'm sure you're already at risk anyway. You have the Internet, for example - I'm sure your usage is monitored somewhere and a far more accurate indicator as to your activity.
But still the only way to be sure is to physically see you leave and not return.

But you refer to hacking the meter as if it were such an unimaginable possibility.

Not at all. I'm sure every kid with an iPhone app can do it nowadays...
But it still requires effort, if not money for the setup and time taken to learn how to hack it, and it's still far easier for the average burglar to just watch. If it comes to it, they're also more likely to impersonate a utility official, pretend there's a problem in the locality and con information from you under the pretense of needing to disable a system/supply when you're not home, so avoiding any disruption to your service.
I'd go so far as to say that anyone with hacking capability, or the industry connections to leverage data abuse is likely to select targets far more important than you and your widescreen telly, if I'm honest.

But again, the complaint is that WE, the water company ourselves, are "spying" on you....
Big whoop, so we know how much water you use. What a travesty.... Now we can actually bill you for all that wasteage. Oh no, what a diabolical machination by The Man...!!

Which brings me back to what MY benefit is from smart meters?

You'll already have flow monitors that send telemetry back regarding flows in particular catchments, which gives us an idea of how a whole area is performing... but that's maybe 16km². In some cases, where problems are recurring, we'll put flow monitors on more local lines. Local smart meters do exactly the same thing as the flow monitors, just to a finer level of detail. We can also identify when your pressure drops or there are supply problems, for example, which will still affect your service however you're metered and measured. It's not just about usage.

I already monitor gas and electricity usage, myself, daily.

Oh, well we'll just trust that, yes? How much water have you used this whole year? None at all? Oh, good for you, no bill, then.... same for everyone else, yes?
I'm sure you are the bastion of honesty and the epitome of integrity. However, we have very large departments that do nothing but deal with illegal connections in both the water and waste sides of the business, as well as fraudulent claims such as false meter reports, and the like.

If undiscovered leaks elsewhere drive up costs, which then impact my bill in terms of unit price, I can't see it being enough for me to care.

Fair enough, then. Pay away...

And while that makes the case for others having such meters, to bring down wastage elsewhere, it's so argument for me fitting one.

You may not have that choice.
I'm sure everyone else would use that argument, but clearly there are needs and likely it will just end up being a blanket roll-out to everyone.

Water meters, as I said, are (in my opinion) a different case. First, most of us don't have a choice as water companies managed to get government to give then the ability to mandate them.

You soon may have the choice... sort-of.... Commercial customers are already getting the choice of who to get their water from. We're still the supplier and maintainer, but they effectively buy in bulk and then sell water on to the customers at whatever price they want.
The aim is to extend this to households later on...

I work on a very simple principle when it comes to data security. The ONLY way to maximise privacy is to not give ANY data to ANYBODY, unless there is a good reason (to me) to do so.

There is no good reason (to you) for you to give us any data at all, I'm sure... but without that, you don't get any water, so...

So by inference, if that is what is keeping our bills "high", we can all expect to see water leakages fixed promptly, industry leakage levels drop significantly and those "high" bills come down, now that smart meters are becoming prolific?

That is already happening.

And it justifies the billions it's costing to do it, nationally? And we, the customers, aren't going to end up paying for those meters in those "high" bills?

Of course you're paying for it. Where else do we get any money to maintain things?
But if you like, we'll just not do it, let everything fail and leave you lot to sort everything out yourselves... Judging from what The Guardian says, I'm sure you'll do a much better job that we ever can, what with all the months of delays waiting for council permission to dig up the road and fix the gushing water mains, Network Rail only offering track possessions years in advance (seriously, we have one booked in 2039, because that's the earliest available slot), people refusing to move their cars for teh parking suspension we need to access our assets, sewers being blocked by all the junk people know they're not supposed to put down there (fat, grease, wet wipes, books, cement, bricks, gardening forks, nappies, credit cards, car parts, cutlery, guns, drugs, body parts, double matresses).

Simply getting a crew out to investigate any of this costs a few thousand. Anything we spend on remote investigations saves its own cost severalfold and potentially months of processing time.

[shaithis]

I'm guessing this can be over-ridden by a local policy and/or regedit. I am most certainly not getting it on a domain with all the telemetry and callbacks disabled via GPO.

[Saracen]

At which I'm sure you're already at risk anyway. You have the Internet, for example - I'm sure your usage is monitored somewhere and a far more accurate indicator as to your activity.
But still the only way to be sure is to physically see you leave and not return.

No, it's not a more accurate indicator, but I'm not going to explain why on a public forum (and no, it's not an illegal method). The only way to be sure, yes, but I was talking about targeting. A burglar will likely monitor targeted addresses. That's the point.

But it still requires effort, if not money for the setup and time taken to learn how to hack it, and it's still far easier for the average burglar to just watch.

Apparently not. Turnkey solutions are available for skill-less scumbags. Andd yes, burglars will assess target houses, but knowledge of who is away helps them target.

Any way you cut it, smartmeters provide a degree of such data, en-masse, that does not exist without. A burglar can only "watch" one location at any time, but data can tell him where to watch for best chances.

... If it comes to it, they're also more likely to impersonate a utility official, pretend there's a problem in the locality and con information from you under the pretense of needing to disable a system/supply when you're not home, so avoiding any disruption to your service.

Hard to do from someone that is aware of social engineering techniques, and I am, and cynical as well.

But also not the point. That risk exists with smartmeters, or without. Minimising points of exposure, remember? The fact that other risks occur is not justification for ignoring another attack point.

But again, the complaint is that WE, the water company ourselves, are "spying" on you....
Big whoop, so we know how much water you use. What a travesty.... Now we can actually bill you for all that wasteage. Oh no, what a diabolical machination by The Man...!!

And what was the first line of my first comment about smart meters? Oh yes,

A Smartmeter "spying" on users is overstating it a bit, but nonetheless, such meters can be used to provide a granularity of information from which it could be inferred, for example, when I'm away on holiday.

If people are moaning about "spying", then by all means take it up with them. That IS NOT my objection to smart meters.

There is no good reason (to you) for you to give us any data at all, I'm sure... but without that, you don't get any water, so...

...

So by inference, if that is what is keeping our bills "high", we can all expect to see water leakages fixed promptly, industry leakage levels drop significantly and those "high" bills come down, now that smart meters are becoming prolific?
That is already happening.

Oh for pities sake. I give name and address, and very little else, to the water company BECAUSE my interest is to get water supply. But prior to smart meters, they didn't need to know my half-hourly usage to supply, or bill me.

And already happening? Usage, and wastage, might be coming down, which benefits the water company, but I don't know where you live, but here, the bill sure as hell isn't .... probably in part due to being stuck with the cost of them damn smart meters.

Of course you're paying for it. Where else do we get any money to maintain things?
But if you like, we'll just not do it, let everything fail and leave you lot to sort everything out yourselves... Judging from what The Guardian says, I'm sure you'll do a much better job that we ever can, what with all the months of delays waiting for council permission to dig up the road and fix the gushing water mains, Network Rail only offering track possessions years in advance (seriously, we have one booked in 2039, because that's the earliest available slot), people refusing to move their cars for teh parking suspension we need to access our assets, sewers being blocked by all the junk people know they're not supposed to put down there (fat, grease, wet wipes, books, cement, bricks, gardening forks, nappies, credit cards, car parts, cutlery, guns, drugs, body parts, double matresses).

None of which has any relevance to my not having a smart meter, and the presence or absence of a smartmeter is not going to prevent morons dumping their junk in sewers, because the "smart" meter doesn't, despite the name, make the user smarter. If they were a junk-dumping moron before, they still will be afterwards.

I don't, however, act like that. I emptied my deep fat fryer today. How? Poured old fat into an empty milk bottle, suspended over a bowl, and then cleaned the machine out with kitchen towel. The milk container containing oil will, when full-ish, be taken the my local refuse centre for disposal, where they have a large tank. At no point, in my several decades of home ownership, have I EVER dumped items on your list, or similar, in my drains, not least because I didn't want to have to dig up my bit to unblock it. And I managed it without needing a smart meter.

This is getting way off the point.

A smart meter DOES have the potential to disclose information about me that, short of a very good reason, I will not voluntarily disclose. For what is I think now the third time of saying it, the case for WATER smart meter is different, and much better, that power utilities.

Fair enough, then. Pay away...

And for power, I do. The power companies keep trying to get me to change billing plans, to dual supply, and monthly "plans" with payment by DD. So do the government, apparently under the impression that because it's cheaper, it's better. NOOOO. What's better is the plan that suits me, which is why I pay quarterly, on receipt of bill.

Why? Several reasons, but among them is that my income stream is irregular, because I am self-employed and freelance. I might get zero income for two or three months, then a big, fat cheque for a major bit of work. I DO NOT want automatic monthly payments going out, and I usually don't pay from my bank anyway. I pay the bill with cash, because I keep a useful cash float, and buy supermarket shopping in cash.

I'm fully aware that paying power bills single fuel per supplier, in arrears, is not the cheapest way and costs me money, but for me, it's well spent. Ditto water. I usually pay annually, in advance. I have the money, and it means I worry about billing once per year, usually paid cash, at the water company offices which is about 300 yards from a destination I'm regularly at anyway. I don't even go out of my way to do it. I have thought about a water meter, and given the size of this property and the occupancy, it would certainly be a fair bit cheaper. But it doesn't suit my needs, so I pay the price premium.

[Ttaskmaster]

A burglar will likely monitor targeted addresses. That's the point.

Get a water butt instead, then... oh, wait, they can look inside that and monitor you that way...

Apparently not. Turnkey solutions are available for skill-less scumbags. Andd yes, burglars will assess target houses, but knowledge of who is away helps them target.

So you're screwed either way - Backhanders to companies, hacking apps off Playstore, digging into your supply and installing their own flow monitor... so many ways to attack you and steal your stuff.

Hard to do from someone that is aware of social engineering techniques, and I am, and cynical as well.

And yet the number of people who do still fall for it, despite (claims of) being as aware and paranoid and secure as you, suggests you're (collectively) only human...
Last time this happened, they stole one of our vehicles, forged uniforms and ID cards with genuine employee names, and hit an area where we were already working, so even phoning the ID-Check number direct on our website yielded a secure response...

But also not the point. That risk exists with smartmeters, or without. Minimising points of exposure, remember? The fact that other risks occur is not justification for ignoring another attack point.

Use of the smartmeter means we don't have to come knocking to ask when the best time is to close things down, so removing the opportunity for scum to knock, too.

But prior to smart meters, they didn't need to know my half-hourly usage to supply, or bill me.

It's also becoming impractical to set up specific monitoring and billing schemes for each individuals' needs... which may even be why your bills are so high.

And already happening? Usage, and wastage, might be coming down, which benefits the water company,

Not really - The less you use, the less we profit.

but I don't know where you live, but here, the bill sure as hell isn't .... probably in part due to being stuck with the cost of them damn smart meters.

More likely an increase in asset damage, especially over Winter. There's still a trend of people flushing wet wipes and causing blockages. Even the ones that state they're flushable really aren't, and we pull that evidence out of the sewers on a daily basis. Most of the network issues cost a lot, which is spread out across the customer base.

None of which has any relevance to my not having a smart meter, and the presence or absence of a smartmeter is not going to prevent morons dumping their junk in sewers,

But it does provide data from which we can more quickly determine most (if not all) of what would otherwise require much of the above in the course of a physical investigation. A single pipe length can cross multiple lines, boundaries and routes, each of which requires complicated (and sometimes costly) procedures and coordinations with other entities involved. If we can skirt around all of those, you get your problems fix FAR quicker.

because the "smart" meter doesn't, despite the name, make the user smarter.

That was never the inference.

If they were a junk-dumping moron before, they still will be afterwards.

But if we can pin that down without taking weeks of digging up your roads and gardens, thus saving many thousands on your collective bills, is that not a good thing?

I don't, however, act like that.

Good for you.
Other people do, though and it costs you money.

A smart meter DOES have the potential to disclose information about me that, short of a very good reason, I will not voluntarily disclose.

So does any system where your usage is monitored and if all it takes is a backhander to an employee with database access, you're already screwed.

[Saracen]

....

So does any system where your usage is monitored and if all it takes is a backhander to an employee with database access, you're already screwed.

Which is why, or rather one reason why, I won't allow such monitoring unless there is a very convincing reason, if I have an option. Currently, I do, so won't.

Everything you've said, which AGAIN is about water which I said up-front was a different case, provides plenty of benefit to you, the company, and no direct benefit and minimal indirect benefit to me.