AMD issues support bulletin on 2nd gen Ryzen compatibility

[scaryjim]

... built quantities of a tool,to fix said issue. ...

I suispect DwU is right, and this isn't a specific tool but simply a written down BR APU of some description.

I wonder if it's the extra complexity of UEFI causing so many problems or if it's down to the increased integration of modern processors - I remember about half the motherboards I built with back in the day failing to recognise the processor in the socket, but they'd still boot and run Windows quite happily, let alone do the basics like flashing BIOS (after all, most motherboards have some form of flashing utility built into the BIOS/UEFI now...).

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I suispect DwU is right, and this isn't a specific tool but simply a written down BR APU of some description.

I wonder if it's the extra complexity of UEFI causing so many problems or if it's down to the increased integration of modern processors - I remember about half the motherboards I built with back in the day failing to recognise the processor in the socket, but they'd still boot and run Windows quite happily, let alone do the basics like flashing BIOS (after all, most motherboards have some form of flashing utility built into the BIOS/UEFI now...).

Its probably more down to modern CPUs having far greater integration,so I expect for them to function even in a basic way the motherboards need to support certain functionality.

But then,why not just release the "update tool" beforehand - as one of my mates suggested it pretty much needs to be a barely functional BR APU,running one functional core,to do the job. AMD must have realised their board partners were behind in updating boards,so had to make such a tool in the first place.

I mean its a bit like when AMD released Ryzen before the motherboards were actually available,so loads of people had CPUs and no boards,and the boards were so rushed out,half the negativity about Ryzen was the buggy launch boards,which if they had waited a few weeks more(and still hit the launch window which would have been met) would have helped. I saw so many people just give up and return everything due to the issues.

If someone asks me to do a RR build now,I can't promise anything unless I check forums and see what people have used and what retailers they have used. Also I need to wait and see how easy it is to get the AMD update pack.

I just hope for the sake of AMD,the lower end CFL boards and CPUs are a few months away.

[ik9000]

after all, most motherboards have some form of flashing utility built into the BIOS/UEFI now...).

Which is what I thought Asus were using with EZflash which I've had since 2008 - genuinely surprised to hear it isn't a default standard feature across the board to be honest

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Which is what I thought Asus were using with EZflash which I've had since 2008 - genuinely surprised to hear it isn't a default standard feature across the board to be honest

Me too,so why in 2018,I can't fathom if companies spend so much time and effort on bling and "hifi quality" motherboard sections,mouse capable bios menus with graphics,etc,that a basic functionality like this is not standard.

Its an utterly archaic way of doing things.

[scaryjim]

... why not just release the "update tool" beforehand ... AMD must have realised their board partners were behind in updating boards,so had to make such a tool in the first place. ...

You keep saying "make a tool", but they don't need to make a special tool when you can just drop in an A6-9500. OK, we don't know for sure that's what the "tool" is, but I'd be amazed if it turned out to be anything else, tbh - if it's going to people who've bought retail Ryzen APUs they don't even need to bundle a cooler as the APU will have come with one. Shipping someone a cheap bare BR APU in a padded envelope isn't going to cost them stupid amounts of money in return for a lot of good will.

As to why not release it beforehand? Because it's not actually AMD's support issue - it's a motherboard support issue. That's why applying for a kit is a last resort. The fact that AMD are offering it at all is a sign that they know they need to work to retain customers. I honestly don't see what else they could've done. Releasing something beforehand would put people off buying a Ryzen APU at all (people hate adding complexity). This way they get the sales, and then can provide additional customer support to get people up and running, which makes them more likely to retain customers.

No company is ever going to shoot their own product launch in the foot by saying "we've got this amazing new product, but there's a good chance it won't work with the parts it's meant to be compatible with, and you need to get an extra compatibility kit as well, and then to mess around updating bits of your new purchase, and then take it all apart and rebuild it with the original bits just to get it working, but we promise it'll be worth it". That's a recipe for very disappointing sales. From a business point of view it's the worst way to deal with it. The best way is to avoid the issue in the first place, but failing that you want to sell the thing to the person, then provide the work around if they encounter the known problem. If you tell people up front about all the known problems you stand a good chance of putting them off buying altogether.

[DanceswithUnix]

Its like releasing a car,and you have a 50/50 chance of it having compatible tires,and then saying they will be released after you bought it!

Not really, buying a car is like going to the likes of HP and buying a complete PC, that is what the vast majority of people will do and that will work.

We are doing the equivalent of buying an engine, a chassis, bodyshell, tyres, and then finding the only way of getting the ECU to work is if we temporarily drop in an old engine. As the owner of a home built car I would see that as an irritation, but most people won't even upgrade a graphics card and look at people like us a bit funny

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

You keep saying "make a tool", but they don't need to make a special tool when you can just drop in an A6-9500. OK, we don't know for sure that's what the "tool" is, but I'd be amazed if it turned out to be anything else, tbh - if it's going to people who've bought retail Ryzen APUs they don't even need to bundle a cooler as the APU will have come with one. Shipping someone a cheap bare BR APU in a padded envelope isn't going to cost them stupid amounts of money in return for a lot of good will.

As to why not release it beforehand? Because it's not actually AMD's support issue - it's a motherboard support issue. That's why applying for a kit is a last resort. The fact that AMD are offering it at all is a sign that they know they need to work to retain customers. I honestly don't see what else they could've done. Releasing something beforehand would put people off buying a Ryzen APU at all (people hate adding complexity). This way they get the sales, and then can provide additional customer support to get people up and running, which makes them more likely to retain customers.

No company is ever going to shoot their own product launch in the foot by saying "we've got this amazing new product, but there's a good chance it won't work with the parts it's meant to be compatible with, and you need to get an extra compatibility kit as well, and then to mess around updating bits of your new purchase, and then take it all apart and rebuild it with the original bits just to get it working, but we promise it'll be worth it". That's a recipe for very disappointing sales. From a business point of view it's the worst way to deal with it. The best way is to avoid the issue in the first place, but failing that you want to sell the thing to the person, then provide the work around if they encounter the known problem. If you tell people up front about all the known problems you stand a good chance of putting them off buying altogether.

Sorry this is a AMD issue - nobody in the RL cares whether its their partner's not bothering to push updates. Stop thinking like an enthusiast on a tech forum. Remember everyone attacking me when I pointed out the issues AMD had,even to extent people actually returned stuff later on and bought Intel stuff since it simply was not fit for the purpose.

Its like people moaning about Nvidia "Gameworks",etc crippling AMD. So what?? If we want to be totally objective,nothing is stopping AMD going to devs and then pushing their own effects or own optimisations before launch. If they can't its their problem and why people will just buy more Intel and Nvidia stuff. AMD is seen as "fiddly" and "problematic" - those are the word of non enthusiasts about AMD.

If you want people to buy your products sort your issues out.

AMD needs to ensure its motherboards and CPUs work together. Somebody buying a Ryzen APU does not give a fig whose fault it is. If it does not work back it goes back or then buy a £45 CPU to fix it?

Someone on a budget spending £40 to £50 extra.Really?

If that is the case,they can get a Core i3 8100,GT1030 and a Z370 board,and can use cheap RAM.

It will work out of the box.

Then what happens if people wait until the B450 comes out,and Intel releases cheaper boards?? Oh wait,they will just buy one of those.

Intel and Nvidia have greater mindshare and if such a combo works out of the box for a similar effective price,people will buy it instead.

Even in the Phenom II days on this very forum,look how much effort it took me to show people a similarly priced AMD setup was as fast and had a better feature set to a Core2 quad.

People probably bought more Core2 quad CPUs.

Its even worse with the graphics cards - people bought more GTX200 series and G92 cards than the HD5000 series ones,more FX than the 9000 series,etc.

Plus how is this going to make prebuilt RR sales look,if all they hear is "AMD problems".

[MLyons]

AMD needs to ensure its motherboards and CPUs work together.

That's the exact point. They aren't AMDs boards. They don't have control over them.

[Tabbykatze]

That's the exact point. They aren't AMDs boards. They don't have control over them.

*boom*thankyouofficegif.gif

Yes, AMD can put pressure but when it really boils down to it, AMD can't control the mobo manufacturers

*tin foil hat time* I wonder if Intel slid some money under the table to delay the bios releases (kidding, please don't stab me Intel fanboys)

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

That's the exact point. They aren't AMDs boards. They don't have control over them.

But that is the point - they chose their partners. They chose when to launch this all. Its their platform.

Sorry dude,but in the end if someone who isn't an enthusiast on a tech forum,buys one of these,does all the compatbility checks,etc and does not work,only one company will be blamed. AMD.

In the end its there platform and their launch - excuse making for their motherboards not being compatible at launch means diddly squat.

Even Jim from AdoredTV said the same. He has a massive soft spot for AMD,but the perception of AMD is what the issue is. Problematic.

If AMD can't even say what motherboards are 100% compatible at launch,then they should have delayed it until the 400 series chipsets.

You are all making one massive mistake - we are all enthusiasts,or know people who are. All people who build PCs are not enthusiasts. They are not going to have parts lying around,or order a £50 CPU,etc.

If they buy a Raven Ridge combination and it does not work,they might say screw it and spend extra on an Intel/Nvidia setup and be done with it.

This is what happened at the Ryzen launch even on this forum.

Even your sister websites didn't recommend RR in its current state:

https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tec...00g-reviews/1/

Or rather, we would do that were it not for our concerns related to the current state of the platform. We have little doubt that AMD is working tirelessly to fix stability issues, and we're interested to see what the experience of the wider tech press has been, but right now at launch we can't recommend that you purchase these APUs. As we said: good ideas undermined by flawed execution. That said, we'd also advise waiting until Intel properly sorts out the vulnerabilities in its hardware before spending your hard-earned. Sadly, neither option is particularly compelling right now.

This is on top of all this faff.

We all like AMD,but its the same at EVERY launch,some bloody problem. Oh,its not their fault.

We can see that - its why Intel and Nvidia still sell more of their products even when AMD fires on all cyclinder.

So basically that £90 Ryzen 3 2200G becomes a £135 set of CPUs??

[MLyons]

But that is the point - they chose their partners. They chose when to launch this all. Its their platform.

Sorry dude,but in the end if someone who isn't an enthusiast on a tech forum,buys one of these,does all the compatbility checks,etc and does not work,only one company will be blamed. AMD.

In the end its there platform and their launch - excuse making for their motherboards not being compatible at launch means diddly squat.

Even Jim from AdoredTV said the same. He has a massive soft spot for AMD,but the perception of AMD is what the issue is. Problematic.

If AMD can't even say what motherboards are 100% compatible at launch,then they should have delayed it until the 400 series chipsets.

You are all making one massive mistake - we are all enthusiasts,or know people who are. All people who build PCs are not enthusiasts. They are not going to have parts lying around,or order a £50 CPU,etc.

If they buy a Raven Ridge combination and it does not work,they might say screw it and spend extra on an Intel/Nvidia setup and be done with it.

This is what happened at the Ryzen launch even on this forum.

Even your sister websites didn't recommend RR in its current state:

https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tec...00g-reviews/1/



This is on top of all this faff.

We all like AMD,but its the same at EVERY launch,some bloody problem. Oh,its not their fault.

We can see that - its why Intel and Nvidia still sell more of their products even when AMD fires on all cyclinder.

I fully agree with the review. I wouldn't touch RR with a 50ft poll. The issue is the distinction. Technically it's not AMDs fault, publicly it is. Not the same every launch. Ryzen was 100% their fault, no way around it. This time I'd blame the motherboard makers. Vega I'd blame AMD.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I fully agree with the review. I wouldn't touch RR with a 50ft poll. The issue is the distinction. Technically it's not AMDs fault, publicly it is. Not the same every launch. Ryzen was 100% their fault, no way around it. This time I'd blame the motherboard makers. Vega I'd blame AMD.

TBF,dude more or less everyone has some issue,or negative press and it leads to situation where say a normal purchaser will be more apprehensive of moving from Intel/Nvidia to AMD.

The fact is,you need working motherboards at launch - even with Ryzen motherboard companies said AMD gave them hardly anytime to properly implement BIOSes,and knowing that we have RR launch with a 50/50 chance you might get a working combination??

How the heck as a responsible person can I tell someone to buy a RR combination if even I can't say it will work?? I would be lying and wasting their hard earned cash.

This is AMD's platform and its their partners. So they need to make sure consumers have as smooth an experience as ever,even if mean they need to ship tools to retailers,to flash BIOSes.

Its no point doing what AMD does,attempt to bury a problem,and hope nobody notices and then people notice. The fact is they knew there was an issue,and had a "fix" already,so why bother to not ship it to retailers??

Why are they waiting until people buy the products and then say WTF,AMD my shiny is not booting. AMD,yeah BTW we already this was the case - sorry for not telling you - we had a fix already for this,we might send you one. OTH,you can buy a £45 CPU for your low budget rig. Its only £45.

I will tell that to someone next time,when they are such a tight budget,that they are willing to use IGPs instead of a proper card.

People in general just want to get their build done and finished,not fart around looking for updates and fixes.

This is the issue with AMD - lots of times great hardware,but feels unfinished or some problem.

[kompukare]

So, the lesson for AMD is to be more like Intel. Change to an incompatible socket (or even chipset in the case of CoffeeLake) every year and force people to buy all new!

The mobo makers will love that, making them spend more time/effort on your products at the next launch.

Rather than the custom ARM chip, another thing might have been if AMD had though of this way before AM4 launched and basically planned for future-proofing by enabling all AM4 CPUs to init a USB controller. Ryzen has onboard firmware and is basically a SOC, so an emergency bootloader type thing like on phones, routers, etc. could have been part of the design.

BTW: it's not just Asus who offer CPU-less BIOS updating.
ASUS: https://rog.asus.com/technology/repu...ios-flashback/
Gigabyte call their Q-Flash Plus
https://www.gigabyte.com/microsite/372/images/safe.html
ASRock &MSI: Not as far I could find out
So yes, it that basically means that only Asus and Gigabyte offer this on a very limited number of their high-end motherboards.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

So, the lesson for AMD is to be more like Intel. Change to an incompatible socket (or even chipset in the case of CoffeeLake) every year and force people to buy all new!

The mobo makers will love that, making them spend more time/effort on your products at the next launch.

Rather than the custom ARM chip, another thing might have been if AMD had though of this way before AM4 launched and basically planned for future-proofing by enabling all AM4 CPUs to init a USB controller. Ryzen has onboard firmware and is basically a SOC, so an emergency bootloader type thing like on phones, routers, etc. could have been part of the design.

BTW: it's not just Asus who offer CPU-less BIOS updating.
ASUS: https://rog.asus.com/technology/repu...ios-flashback/
Gigabyte call their Q-Flash Plus
https://www.gigabyte.com/microsite/372/images/safe.html
ASRock &MSI: Not as far I could find out
So yes, it that basically means that only Asus and Gigabyte offer this on a very limited number of their high-end motherboards.

Its no point AMD taking a moral high ground,when their shiny new APU has a 50/50 chance of working?? It needs to work.

So how many of you can promise 100% that in the months until the launch of the 400 series,there will be 100% compatability no problems.

I mean these ultra budget system CPUs,so you expect the kind of people doing such builds do have random AM4 CPUs lying around,or want to randomly add a £50 one to a build??

Whats the point if that £85 APU is now £130 since you need to buy a £45 CPU??

Also historically when AMD made new generation APUs,they launched new chipsets.

FM1=new chipset(K10). FM2= new chipset(PD). FM2+ = new chipset(SR). AM4= new chipset(BR).

AMD has historically been stronger in forward compatability with their CPUs than backwards compatability with their CPUs. Hence a Phenom II could work in a AM3+ motherboard.

They knew this issue was there,unless you think they all of a sudden put a website up,made a BIOS updating "tool",etc within three days?

Surely they actually talk to their OEMs?? Their OEMs would be telling them what BIOS revisions they were shipping and how many boards were shipping.

So why not release them with the 400 series chipsets if they CBA talking to their board partners??

Its more worrying that there seems to be a disconnect between AMD and its board partners for the second consumer launch in a row.

Edit!!

OK,then.

Someone show me a list of 300 series AMD motherboards which will boot out of the box fine with a Ryzen 3 2200G,if someone asked today they wanted to do a build with one.

Because ATM I have not clue which ones will work,and if I need them to buy a £45 CPU then I assume its £45 added to the initial cost,or £30 if they sell it to CEX.

[Corky34]

Sorry dude,but in the end if someone who isn't an enthusiast on a tech forum,buys one of these,does all the compatbility checks,etc and does not work,only one company will be blamed. AMD.

Probably true but honestly i wouldn't recommend buying and building and AMD system to someone who isn't an enthusiast as I'd wonder if they could sort out any issues they came across themselves, I'd probably say they'd be better off paying a bit more and building an Intel system as they're less likely to encounter any issues.

Yes i know that's not an ideal situation for AMD to be in but in the grand scheme of things people building systems who can't or won't persevere in the face of niggles is tiny, tech enthusiast will deal with these sort of issues, probably moan about it at the time and get a nice sense of achievement when they get it all working, and on the other end OEMs will just sort the problems out before selling a complete system.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Probably true but honestly i wouldn't recommend buying and building and AMD system to someone who isn't an enthusiast as I'd wonder if they could sort out any issues they came across themselves, I'd probably say they'd be better off paying a bit more and building an Intel system as they're less likely to encounter any issues.

Yes i know that's not an ideal situation for AMD to be in but in the grand scheme of things people building systems who can't or won't persevere in the face of niggles is tiny, tech enthusiast will deal with these sort of issues, probably moan about it at the time and get a nice sense of achievement when they get it all working, and on the other end OEMs will just sort the problems out before selling a complete system.

I don't know dude - it kind of sucks really. Most people who build systems are not enthusiasts so if they have an issue like this,it can push people off companies for years. Its like most of my close mates,they ask me and another mate regarding what to do,and we pushed quite a few towards AMD,or non-standard Intel builds since we could troubleshoot if there was an issue,and many tend to default to Nvidia cards(unless we interfered).They can assemble PCs fine,but don't really care about PC tech,so it makes me wonder what they might have gotten instead if we were not around,ie,just follow some build guide.My experience is people don't really stick too long with build issues- if they need to be throwing money at it,its better to just return it all and buy something else,especially there is a limited time window for doing this,and people have limited time,etc.

Its a shame,since RR is brilliantly well balanced product IMHO. Just as usual(like with the R9 290) it has teething problems.,but the concern being it puts some pressure off Intel.

Edit!!

That is the issue,you all need to stop thinking like enthusiasts and think like some general joe/jane who keeps a glance at tech and wants to throw some parts together for a cost effective build.

Even in this very thread,The Hand,wants a new RR rig,but if AMD does not send the tool/CPU in good time he might just send it back and wait probably a while until the newer boards are released. He is enthusiast and probably a bit more tolerant of these issues than many system builders.

I don't understand some of you,really.

If someone wants to build a RR rig,now and asks that question,not anyone of you can 100% promise the system will boot fine,unless they spend £45 on another CPU or wait for AMD to send an update package. Thats an extra cost just like 3200MHZ DDR4. This is a budget platform for budget builders. Every extra £1 does count.

So in the end,you either pay more or wait an unknown amount of time.

Or just spend a bit extra(if you need to buy an A9 9600) and get an Intel/Nvidia rig and the Intel rig does not need expensive higher speed DDR4.

It was the same when many of you jumped at me,criticising the Ryzen launch and people in the end who were experienced enthusiasts sent the parts back on here and other places.

Its AMD's responsiblity to keep its partners in check and sort its launches out. If it can't then again why is this relevaent to the end user??

To the end consumer,most don't care if AMD is smaller,or has less power over OEMs,etc. We might care since its David vs Goliath and we want AMD to take the incumbants and Athlon64 them entirely,but so many would not even remember AMD at its height or ATI. They only know Intel/Nvidia. Its not great,but its the way the cookie crumbles.They are fighting entrenched incumbants,so they are only screwing themselves over if they miss on critical details,like having motherboards which actually boot with their CPUs.