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Thread: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    Which brings us to the failure of laws restricting firearms ownership. The majority of mass shootings in the US are committed by people who have obtained the firearms illegally. What the gun control laws actually achieve is to prevent people from being able to defend themselves.
    I've never understood this view. Even with this recent school shooting a trained deputy refused to go into the school and confront the killer. I just don't think in a panic situation someone will handle being shot at by assault rifle by calmly drawing a gun and shooting accurately back. Also with the 2017 Las Vegas shooting the shooter used a bump stock and rifle to shoot from a distance and no one knew where from so no chance to defend yourself. If you take guns both legally and illegally owned out of the system like we have in the UK you just don't have to worry about being shot at. Also what good does a gun do against a bomb?
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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    For the good guy with a gun stopping a bad guy with a gun idiom to be valid you'd need to prove the good guys could actually hit their intended target, something that even what you would assumed are highly trained police officers fail to do 70% of the time.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by TeePee View Post
    Given that the UK saw several spree killings in 2017, being the Manchester bombing and numerous vehicle and knife attacks, combined with the smaller population, I'm not sure why you find that fact surprising.

    The US Federal Government defines mass killings as those with greater than four fatalities. According to this source 'https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/one-mass-shooting-every-day-seven-facts-gun-violence-america/' there were 346 victims in 2017 among a population of 323M, gives a rate of 1.07/Million. Again, these are mostly gang related. No one tracks murders in the UK by number, because no one wants to blame guns, and I'm not going to put any effort in to it. The Manchester Bombing and London vehicle attacks account for 35, with a 63 Million population, that's more than half way there on those incidents alone. I recall an Arson attack which killed some children, so there are more.

    You can't blame guns and claim to live in a gun free paradise with numbers even remotely close. This is, of course, why so many people specify 'Shootings' rather than 'killings'. Who cares what the method is? This argument was invalidated after the truck attack in Nice. 86 victims dwarfs the worst mass shootings in the US by a mile. The only mass killings that have exceeded this in the US used Bombs or Airplanes.
    I think you must be deluded...the simple facts are that pretty much every western nation has strict gun laws except the US and pretty much every western nation doesn't have a problem with people buying semi-automatic weapons and going on a killing spree except the US. You're countering your own argument "The only mass killings that have exceeded this in the US used Bombs or Airplanes."...you mean like was used in the Manchester bombing??? Why don't we stick to the subject at hand which is GUN DEATHSand the comparison of GUN DEATHS between a country that allows any idiot who can sign there name to buy a gun and the rest of the western world where that's not the case. No one claims to live in a gun-free paradise but what we do acknowledge is the evidence that a single country with pretty much unrestricted gun laws has a higher murder rate with guns than every other equivalent country that has restrictive gun laws.

    The insanity of the situation is that Americans consider Kinder Eggs more dangerous than an AR-15 and that Americans think the right to own a weapon that is purely designed to kill other human beings is more important than the right to life.
    Last edited by frozen-monkey; 07-03-2018 at 11:42 AM.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by Xlucine View Post
    So let me get this straight:
    1) You're admitting that TeePee has provided evidence
    2) in the next breath, you're claiming that he can't provide evidence
    3) And you start concern trolling, since you've already been proven wrong but can't stand to admit it?
    1- No I was pre-empting any possibility of TeePee posting links for something that really doesn't need posting. Just to clarify that point.
    2- Read above, he hasn't on the related subject of gun crime.
    3- I'm not trolling.

    The point was about gun related crime, terrorists driving into people or using explosives isn't gun crime, which the topic was about. Changing the point about gun related crime into something entirely different, what's that term? Strawman argument? Perhaps I'm reading his posts wrong, but you're definitely reading mine wrong.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by frozen-monkey View Post
    The insanity of the situation is that Americans consider Kinder Eggs more dangerous than an AR-15 and that Americans think the right to own a weapon that is purely designed to kill other human beings is more important than the right to life.
    What's even more insane is that most American think the amendments to their constitution, AKA the bill of rights grants them rights, it does no such thing.

    Both the constitution and its amendments set-out how and what the federal government can or can't do and how it should operate, it even say so in the preamble of the bill when it states...
    THE Conventions of a number of the States having at the time of their adopting the Constitution, expressed a desire, in order to prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers, that further declaratory and restrictive clauses should be added: And as extending the ground of public confidence in the Government, will best insure the beneficent ends of its institution
    It may sound like semantics but granting people a right is a very different thing than restricting what an organisation can or can't do.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    What hacks me off about people arguing about gun crime in the US is they try validating having guns, irrespective of the degree of violence it allows (not causes), by saying "Yeah, well in the UK you have higher amounts of mass murder per capita because of bombings, knifings and acid attacks". My response is that you really need to account for those as well in America, when I have a lengthy moment to trawl through the number of mass murders including knife, bomb, gun, acid and other methods I'll see if this thread is still active. Lets calculate if the standard American gun lovers credence still holds true.

    Edit/Addendum: It infuriates me that people validate/justify having guns just because others are murdered in different ways moreso elsewhere. Isn't the survival directive to reduce the rate of death by any means or is that just too hard because of a ridiculous outdated Amendment that can't be changed even though the definition of Amendment means it was something that was changed in the first place!
    Last edited by Tabbykatze; 07-03-2018 at 02:27 PM.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by frozen-monkey View Post
    I think you must be deluded...the simple facts are that pretty much every western nation has strict gun laws except the US and pretty much every western nation doesn't have a problem with people buying semi-automatic weapons and going on a killing spree except the US.
    They do have problems with mass killings involving guns, you just dont see them reported in the news. I had never even heard about the mass killings in Australia until this week when the US mentioned they were considering the Australian system as a better gun control model. From what I read there was some evidence that as gun crime fell in australia arson attacks rose. You could well end up just swapping gun attacks with arson attacks. As some wise people have pointed out, in the past guns were even more freely availble in the US and there were much less mass shootings. It is a social problem, not a problem with gun control
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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironbuket View Post
    It is a social problem, not a problem with gun control
    Someone told me that Canada has similar gun laws to the US, but without the going around shooting each other bit. Don't know how true that is but it is believable.

    I don't know of anything stopping me from going out any buying an AR-15 in the UK either. I don't have the money (those things aren't cheap) or a gun safe in the loft or a membership of a gun club or the references to say I am not a nutter and I haven't been on the UK NRA gun use & safety course; but I could do all those things and apply for a firearms license. If you are keen on target shooting those hurdles don't seem so great, but they are fairly high for a nutter to get through.

    What I don't get from the American NRA is why they think a "good man with a gun" bringing a pistol to an AR-15 fight is going to end well for the guy with the pistol. Back in my youth before they were banned I tried quite hard to get good with a hand gun, and I could never hit a damned thing. Rifles are another matter.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    I don't know of anything stopping me from going out any buying an AR-15 in the UK either. I don't have the money (those things aren't cheap) or a gun safe in the loft or a membership of a gun club or the references to say I am not a nutter and I haven't been on the UK NRA gun use & safety course; but I could do all those things and apply for a firearms license.
    You might be on to something here. If owning a gun in the US equated to being hassled by the cops, loads of paperwork, having to do training and cost a lot. By the time you went through all that you aren’t going to pass it to your kids to play with

    The government should discourage ownership in the same way they do with cars: How about an annual gun ownership tax and mot?
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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    What I don't get from the American NRA is why they think a "good man with a gun" bringing a pistol to an AR-15 fight is going to end well for the guy with the pistol. Back in my youth before they were banned I tried quite hard to get good with a hand gun, and I could never hit a damned thing. Rifles are another matter.
    Didn't that happen last year with someone from the US government on a baseball field? I vaguely remember someone with a rifle shooting at him and all his body guards had were pistols which were uneffective. I don't think anyone actually ended up getting killed in the end.

    I think TeePee's point was that removing firearms would not remove mass killings, but I have to think it would help reduce them. Just like if the UK had more/easier access to firearms, we would probably have more (although I think I read that the biggest increase would most likely be suicides). Firearms are part of the problem, the proportion of which I have no idea and would vary per incident anyway, but a lot of it is also social, economical, political etc.. Games have already been proven in some studies not to have any links to violence, so whilst it isn't a bad idea to look at more than just firearm control, this seems completely pointless. The actual issues would be too difficult to nail down or expensive to fix. I also believe that firearms are a big "multiplier" (can't think of the right word) where it is very easy for one person to inflict a lot of damage quickly. Whilst the same could be true for a car, it is less practical in some circumstances (like, inside buildings). Likewise with bombs, they are probably more difficult to make than to get a firearm in the US, but no means impossible.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
    Didn't that happen last year with someone from the US government on a baseball field? I vaguely remember someone with a rifle shooting at him and all his body guards had were pistols which were uneffective. I don't think anyone actually ended up getting killed in the end.

    I think TeePee's point was that removing firearms would not remove mass killings, but I have to think it would help reduce them. Just like if the UK had more/easier access to firearms, we would probably have more (although I think I read that the biggest increase would most likely be suicides). Firearms are part of the problem, the proportion of which I have no idea and would vary per incident anyway, but a lot of it is also social, economical, political etc.. Games have already been proven in some studies not to have any links to violence, so whilst it isn't a bad idea to look at more than just firearm control, this seems completely pointless. The actual issues would be too difficult to nail down or expensive to fix. I also believe that firearms are a big "multiplier" (can't think of the right word) where it is very easy for one person to inflict a lot of damage quickly. Whilst the same could be true for a car, it is less practical in some circumstances (like, inside buildings). Likewise with bombs, they are probably more difficult to make than to get a firearm in the US, but no means impossible.
    That was one of the mass shootings that was stopped last year. The guards with the pistols were able to stop the shooter with a rifle. That is one of many examples. The effect on the suicide rate would likely be negligible, as once again examples of countries with strict gun control often have very high suicide rates. Japan being the obvious example.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by Corky34 View Post
    Whether its worked or not is something that's certainly debatable but we're not talking about how effective Americas drug policy is, we're talking about the American president wanting heavier regulation of Movies, Video games, and the Internet because he believes their to blame and not the massive proliferation of firearms.
    We're talking about why the US has such a high murder rate. The President might want to blame video games, you might want to blame guns, I want to blame drug policy. If some one can blame one thing unrelated to the President's opinion, then so can I.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by cheesemp View Post
    I've never understood this view. Even with this recent school shooting a trained deputy refused to go into the school and confront the killer. I just don't think in a panic situation someone will handle being shot at by assault rifle by calmly drawing a gun and shooting accurately back. Also with the 2017 Las Vegas shooting the shooter used a bump stock and rifle to shoot from a distance and no one knew where from so no chance to defend yourself. If you take guns both legally and illegally owned out of the system like we have in the UK you just don't have to worry about being shot at. Also what good does a gun do against a bomb?
    Except this is something which happens relatively often. The Shooting in Texas last year was stopped by a neighbour who used his firearm to shoot and stop the killer. While the police failed in Florida on this occasion, they usually do a better job. There was a coach who confronted the killer, and protected several students. If he had been allowed to have a firearm with him, the outcome might have been different.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    Someone told me that Canada has similar gun laws to the US, but without the going around shooting each other bit. Don't know how true that is but it is believable.

    I don't know of anything stopping me from going out any buying an AR-15 in the UK either. I don't have the money (those things aren't cheap) or a gun safe in the loft or a membership of a gun club or the references to say I am not a nutter and I haven't been on the UK NRA gun use & safety course; but I could do all those things and apply for a firearms license. If you are keen on target shooting those hurdles don't seem so great, but they are fairly high for a nutter to get through.

    What I don't get from the American NRA is why they think a "good man with a gun" bringing a pistol to an AR-15 fight is going to end well for the guy with the pistol. Back in my youth before they were banned I tried quite hard to get good with a hand gun, and I could never hit a damned thing. Rifles are another matter.
    Canada has had a few mass killings, but fewer than the US. They have a significantly lower murder rate. It turns out a healthcare system and treatment of mental illness combined with a better drug policy actually works.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
    Didn't that happen last year with someone from the US government on a baseball field? I vaguely remember someone with a rifle shooting at him and all his body guards had were pistols which were uneffective. I don't think anyone actually ended up getting killed in the end.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_C...eball_shooting

    Sounds like the gunman was killed, but only after he did a lot of damage.

    But again, a quick Google says there are 1.8M guns in the UK, and yet we don't get this sort of thing constantly happening. We also have violent video games, and I know people who partake in both yet I don't feel worried by that as fundamentally in this country we don't give firearms to nutters.

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    Re: Trump to meet US video game industry heads on Thursday

    Quote Originally Posted by DanceswithUnix View Post
    ...I don't feel worried by that as fundamentally in this country we don't give firearms to nutters.

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