AMD launches its Ryzen Pro 4000 series mobile processors

[DanceswithUnix]

That's the same TDP as the dual core E-350 in my old HP laptop. It must really be time for an upgrade.

The AMD socket adds a lot of bulk

You mean the FP6 package? I don't believe any of these parts are actually socketed.

[3dcandy]

That's the same TDP as the dual core E-350 in my old HP laptop. It must really be time for an upgrade.



You mean the FP6 package? I don't believe any of these parts are actually socketed.

Couldn't actually find out... but I believe that mounting FP6 processors is harder than the equivalent Intel offerings in terms of thickness

[Tabbykatze]

Nope - but Intels parts are currently easier to package into thinner designs which *can* help with cooling

The AMD socket adds a lot of bulk - the Intel parts are hard soldered onto the board. Haven't seen anyone brave enough to solder an AMD direct to a board and to be fair I've not looked into if that's even possible right now

Can you clarify, i didn't think AMD were using socketed CPUs in laptops?

[3dcandy]

Can you clarify, i didn't think AMD were using socketed CPUs in laptops?

If you google (yes I know) it's still referred to as socket fp6 or package fp6.
Can't find any solid info but from looking at service documents etc. the mounting height and thickness of fp6 is quite a bit more than Intels equivalents...

They are all different - go figure but it's about 3 - 4 mm. But in percentage terms it appears to be like 30+% thicker. One example was 8.1 mm for a last year Lenovo V this years Asus G14 series with 11.1mm. But it was a couple of weeks ago and in lockdown it feels like about 10 years so I could be a bit off with those in these fuzzy times. There are no direct apple to apple comparisons I could find but the documents I could all point to AMD's being a tad taller/thicker. Most sources don't quote to thickness at all. In fact googling fp6 is next to useless in reality

[DanceswithUnix]

If you google (yes I know) it's still referred to as socket fp6 or package fp6.
Can't find any solid info but from looking at service documents etc. the mounting height and thickness of fp6 is quite a bit more than Intels equivalents...

They are all different - go figure but it's about 3 - 4 mm. But in percentage terms it appears to be like 30+% thicker. One example was 8.1 mm for a last year Lenovo V this years Asus G14 series with 11.1mm. But it was a couple of weeks ago and in lockdown it feels like about 10 years so I could be a bit off with those in these fuzzy times. There are no direct apple to apple comparisons I could find but the documents I could all point to AMD's being a tad taller/thicker. Most sources don't quote to thickness at all. In fact googling fp6 is next to useless in reality

It isn't a socket, but you may well be right that it is thicker. Mind you, that might just be the standard 45W parts, nothing to stop AMD making the lower power parts thinner while retaining the same ball grid layout.

[Xlucine]

If you google (yes I know) it's still referred to as socket fp6 or package fp6.
Can't find any solid info but from looking at service documents etc. the mounting height and thickness of fp6 is quite a bit more than Intels equivalents...

They are all different - go figure but it's about 3 - 4 mm. But in percentage terms it appears to be like 30+% thicker. One example was 8.1 mm for a last year Lenovo V this years Asus G14 series with 11.1mm. But it was a couple of weeks ago and in lockdown it feels like about 10 years so I could be a bit off with those in these fuzzy times. There are no direct apple to apple comparisons I could find but the documents I could all point to AMD's being a tad taller/thicker. Most sources don't quote to thickness at all. In fact googling fp6 is next to useless in reality

So just 4 hours before this post you didn't even know if AMD chips were soldered, and now you're certain that the intel ones are substantially thinner? And service documents clearly specify this, rather than just list part numbers and show which order to tighten the screws?

The lenovo V series is their ultra cheap business range, with the slimmest (V330) at ~20mm thick. The asus G14 without the dot matrix display is ~18mm

no... it's more to do with how you'd actually use said cpu and the actual level of cooling in the surface book but then I didn't think I'd need to explain something so simple or obvious....

If you 'need' a 8c/16t cpu in a laptop it's so you can do rendering and the likes which means longer use at higher temps... hence what looks like active cooling on those laptops. The surfacebook isn't exactly known for it's cooling is it... not to mention 'heat' is an issue that crops up quite regularly with it already so 15w is arguably too high for it if it's to be used in any demanding or professional usage...

In fact I'd love to see an 8c/16t in a surfacebook... the only difference is I'm a realist and know it's not viable (due to my background in product design).... the only way it's viable with the current design is to basically make the screen part arm based and move the 'x64' bit solely into the base.. although obviously software is then the issue.

Ever heard of race to idle? The AMD 8 core chips running at 12.5 W are faster than intel chips running at 25 W, so they're the perfect choice for a laptop "Designed for professionals who need desktop-level performance from anywhere"

[3dcandy]

So just 4 hours before this post you didn't even know if AMD chips were soldered, and now you're certain that the intel ones are substantially thinner? And service documents clearly specify this, rather than just list part numbers and show which order to tighten the screws?

The lenovo V series is their ultra cheap business range, with the slimmest (V330) at ~20mm thick. The asus G14 without the dot matrix display is ~18mm



Ever heard of race to idle? The AMD 8 core chips running at 12.5 W are faster than intel chips running at 25 W, so they're the perfect choice for a laptop "Designed for professionals who need desktop-level performance from anywhere"

Of course I knew they were soldered...
The confusion is totally because the info isn't clear cut. I can't find it listed clearly anywhere. I cba'd to google for ages about something I was just interested in to be fair. The packaging is still referred to as a socket on plenty of searches. I said I can't find an apples to apples comparison anywhere...

First result (for me) if I type amd fp6 brings up the fp3 socket as described on wikipedia with a missing reference to fp6 socket as it's in a table labelled socket type.

It's moot as the info simply doesn't quantify it totally but the best says they are a tad taller. Add that the surface lines aren't really a new design would say to me they didn't even consider amd this time around. 3mm in 20 or 18mm is a huge percentage difference as well

I just had a casual search whilst some video was rendering and drinking a coffee. No laptops were harmed in this search

[Xlucine]

Of course I knew they were soldered...
The confusion is totally because the info isn't clear cut. I can't find it listed clearly anywhere. I cba'd to google for ages about something I was just interested in to be fair. The packaging is still referred to as a socket on plenty of searches. I said I can't find an apples to apples comparison anywhere...

First result (for me) if I type amd fp6 brings up the fp3 socket as described on wikipedia with a missing reference to fp6 socket as it's in a table labelled socket type.

It's moot as the info simply doesn't quantify it totally but the best says they are a tad taller. Add that the surface lines aren't really a new design would say to me they didn't even consider amd this time around. 3mm in 20 or 18mm is a huge percentage difference as well

I just had a casual search whilst some video was rendering and drinking a coffee. No laptops were harmed in this search

Nope - but Intels parts are currently easier to package into thinner designs which *can* help with cooling

The AMD socket adds a lot of bulk - the Intel parts are hard soldered onto the board. Haven't seen anyone brave enough to solder an AMD direct to a board and to be fair I've not looked into if that's even possible right now

So you can't quantify anything but they're taller because you just *know* it in your heart, and you've been certain of this since before you'd even heard of anyone soldering an AMD chip to a board. You're making up rubbish at this point - an entire desktop AM4 chip is 4.57 mm from the base of the PCB to the top of the heatspeader (per my micrometer on my 1200), so there's no way that a laptop chip could end up 3mm thicker than the intel chip without ending up overall thicker than a desktop chip with heatspreader. It's very clear cut, so far you've offered no evidence whatsoever that there's any significant difference in soldered package thickness and even if there was the >2x efficiency improvements in AMD chips mean they're far easier to fit in thin&light designs

[3dcandy]

So you can't quantify anything but they're taller because you just *know* it in your heart, and you've been certain of this since before you'd even heard of anyone soldering an AMD chip to a board. You're making up rubbish at this point - an entire desktop AM4 chip is 4.57 mm from the base of the PCB to the top of the heatspeader (per my micrometer on my 1200), so there's no way that a laptop chip could end up 3mm thicker than the intel chip without ending up overall thicker than a desktop chip with heatspreader. It's very clear cut, so far you've offered no evidence whatsoever that there's any significant difference in soldered package thickness and even if there was the >2x efficiency improvements in AMD chips mean they're far easier to fit in thin&light designs

Lol it was 6.29am.... obvs not awake and making no sense...

[LSG501]

Ever heard of race to idle? The AMD 8 core chips running at 12.5 W are faster than intel chips running at 25 W, so they're the perfect choice for a laptop "Designed for professionals who need desktop-level performance from anywhere"

In regards to the height of the cpu, even if it's just 0.5mm thicker than the intel chip being used that is a pretty big difference when the entire thickness of the screen section is like 8mm (think it's actually 7.7mm but can't find the link now...).


I have actually... and I didn't actually say anything about it at idle so no idea why you're bringing idle performance as a reply.
Throw in cooling 'heatsink' that is essentially a piece of flat copper (ifixit shows it) with a tiny blower attached (only on 15 iirc) and you still want to question why the amd chip is not really suited...


And that link doesn't change anything that I've said.... all that is doing is showing me the marketing that MS is using, that's about as good as apple saying everything is 'magical'....

[DanceswithUnix]

I have actually... and I didn't actually say anything about it at idle so no idea why you're bringing idle performance as a reply.

He said "Race to idle". That's the idea that you want to go as fast as you reasonably can to finish a burst of work (like rendering a web page) and then shut the CPU down, vs running slowly and consuming fewer Watts for longer.

The total energy and hence heat is lower if you race to idle and soak the heat than when you throttle the clock speed, and as a bonus you get the work done faster.

This is why a high boost clock is so key in modern laptops, and why ridiculing a 5GHz boost for a fraction of a second as pointless shows a lack of understanding as it is actually a common use case.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

AMD did die thinning before Intel advertised it. The RX460 die had it:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016...s-macbook-pro/

AMD claims that the Radeon Pro 400 series features "the thinnest graphics processor possible," thanks to the use of a die thinning process that reduces each wafer of silicon used in the GPU from 780 microns (0.78 millimetres) to 380 microns.

So to expect AMD not to be doing the same with their other mobile CPUs/GPUs is a bit weird.

Edit!!

Also AMD Zen is a SOC...the Intel CPUs are not,at least for many of their models.

So for many gaming laptops,for example Intel needs more chips on the PCB.

[LSG501]

He said "Race to idle". That's the idea that you want to go as fast as you reasonably can to finish a burst of work (like rendering a web page) and then shut the CPU down, vs running slowly and consuming fewer Watts for longer.

The total energy and hence heat is lower if you race to idle and soak the heat than when you throttle the clock speed, and as a bonus you get the work done faster.

This is why a high boost clock is so key in modern laptops, and why ridiculing a 5GHz boost for a fraction of a second as pointless shows a lack of understanding as it is actually a common use case.

Actually there was also reference to idle performance, not just race to idle.. hence my reply, however the main argument being used for the 8c/16t is that the surfacebook is being sold as a 'workstation' and as such should be using the AMD cpu.... The thing is that no matter what chip it has inside, a workstation won't be primarily used for 'rendering a web page' then going back to idle.... you don't 'need' an 8c/16t cpu to browse the web and the people buying 8c/16t cpu's are most likely going to be using it for things like encoding and rendering... especially if it has the quadro gpu, that's what it's 'marketed' for.

I've already said earlier that the surfacebook isn't exactly known for it's cooling, with 'heat' issues cropping up quite regularly already so 15w is arguably already too high for it if it's to be used in any demanding or professional usage...

As someone who uses workstations on a daily basis for my 3D work you don't end up using the '5ghz boost for a fraction of a second' as much as you end up using all the cores etc.. hell the pc sitting next to me right now has literally been stuck at 100% usage, on all cores/threads, all day yesterday and today while doing 'workstation work' in the form of rendering and encoding, not that I'd ever consider doing that on a laptop these days (I have in the past) but some buying a 'workstation' laptop would, in fact I very rarely see single core usage while doing 'workstation' work and the simple fact is that the cooling solution on the surfacebook just isn't that good.

[Xlucine]

In regards to the height of the cpu, even if it's just 0.5mm thicker than the intel chip being used that is a pretty big difference when the entire thickness of the screen section is like 8mm (think it's actually 7.7mm but can't find the link now...).


I have actually... and I didn't actually say anything about it at idle so no idea why you're bringing idle performance as a reply.
Throw in cooling 'heatsink' that is essentially a piece of flat copper (ifixit shows it) with a tiny blower attached (only on 15 iirc) and you still want to question why the amd chip is not really suited...


And that link doesn't change anything that I've said.... all that is doing is showing me the marketing that MS is using, that's about as good as apple saying everything is 'magical'....

If it is thicker, then it could be an issue. If.

Facts are:
- Zen2 is 2-3x more power efficient at laptop power levels (at 12.5 W it matches intel at 25 W, and at 15 W it matches intel at 45 W).
- The AMD chip will happily run at the same power level as the intel chip.

In a power limited application like this, the AMD chip will be substantially faster and cooler (if they dial it down to the 12.5 W setting, instead of the 15 W used on the intel chips - running them both at the same power would give the same temp, and a massive perf difference). Even if the heatsink is just a copper plate with a fan blowing across it (and as heatsinks go, that's a respectable way to shift small amounts of heat - way better than common practice in PSUs).

Actually there was also reference to idle performance, not just race to idle.. hence my reply, however the main argument being used for the 8c/16t is that the surfacebook is being sold as a 'workstation' and as such should be using the AMD cpu.... The thing is that no matter what chip it has inside, a workstation won't be primarily used for 'rendering a web page' then going back to idle.... you don't 'need' an 8c/16t cpu to browse the web and the people buying 8c/16t cpu's are most likely going to be using it for things like encoding and rendering... especially if it has the quadro gpu, that's what it's 'marketed' for.

I've already said earlier that the surfacebook isn't exactly known for it's cooling, with 'heat' issues cropping up quite regularly already so 15w is arguably already too high for it if it's to be used in any demanding or professional usage...

As someone who uses workstations on a daily basis for my 3D work you don't end up using the '5ghz boost for a fraction of a second' as much as you end up using all the cores etc.. hell the pc sitting next to me right now has literally been stuck at 100% usage, on all cores/threads, all day yesterday and today while doing 'workstation work' in the form of rendering and encoding, not that I'd ever consider doing that on a laptop these days (I have in the past) but some buying a 'workstation' laptop would, in fact I very rarely see single core usage while doing 'workstation' work and the simple fact is that the cooling solution on the surfacebook just isn't that good.

Literally the only person talking about idle performance is you when you didn't understand race to idle And it's not just webpages - it takes a surprisingly long time to reach steady state (~minutes) even with small heatsinks, as the rate of heat loss to the air increases as the temp rises (of course, you only asymptotically approach steady state anyway...). Small tasks, like rendering a short video (~minutes) or raytracing a simple scene (seeing how a 3d model under development looks with a proper render) will complete in a timescale where the higher performance of the AMD chip will give lower temperatures and ridiculous energy savings.

Are you sure you're not confusing the colour of the brand logo and the temperature the chips run at? The blue ones don't run cooler - the red 15 W is just as easy to handle as the blue 15 W.

[Gentle Viking]

Tallied my piggy bank last night, i am half way there to a 4500U machine with modest setup

Downside is i also got to have my car inspected ( MOT ) within the next month, and before that a service on it to make sure there are no hidden surprises ( 2012 car )
And i also have my case project for the PC, but at least i cant really go much further with that before i have a replacement for the hardware ( a laptop )

Lot of work for this summer, only problem is 3-4 hours of very casual work with a chain saw have left me still sore in the legs and back 2 days after the work.
And i have more trees to cut up, a lot of dirt to shovel, and a few tonnes of stones ASO i have to move / arrange too for a off road "track" for scale 4x4 trucks.
A wall to tear down , a floor to waterproof, walls and sealing to insulate, a G-scale railroad to build in a field, redoing some masonry on a whole house, and that's just the stuff i know now i have to do / help with.

Would be so nice if one was a A - hole that say no to friends and family,,,,, but i am not that kind of person.

i am too old for this sh,,,,, stuff.

[3dcandy]

Tallied my piggy bank last night, i am half way there to a 4500U machine with modest setup

Downside is i also got to have my car inspected ( MOT ) within the next month, and before that a service on it to make sure there are no hidden surprises ( 2012 car )
And i also have my case project for the PC, but at least i cant really go much further with that before i have a replacement for the hardware ( a laptop )

Lot of work for this summer, only problem is 3-4 hours of very casual work with a chain saw have left me still sore in the legs and back 2 days after the work.
And i have more trees to cut up, a lot of dirt to shovel, and a few tonnes of stones ASO i have to move / arrange too for a off road "track" for scale 4x4 trucks.
A wall to tear down , a floor to waterproof, walls and sealing to insulate, a G-scale railroad to build in a field, redoing some masonry on a whole house, and that's just the stuff i know now i have to do / help with.

Would be so nice if one was a A - hole that say no to friends and family,,,,, but i am not that kind of person.

i am too old for this sh,,,,, stuff.

Time to change name is it?
I mean a gentle viking really isn't a thing is it.... lol