Well, Steve Burke at Gamers Nexus decided to expose MSIs aggressive practices with reviewers because they tried to pressure a small time channel.Originally Posted by Output
A bit silly for vendors to brazenly do it because it's so easy to expose now and large reviewers/influencers will now band together for the good of the industry and its integrity.
I recall hearing about that, it was a UK-based channel they tried it on.
If I recall correctly, Linus (Linus Tech Tips) said on a WAN Show episode (which is when I heard about the MSI attempt in the first place) that they had never had that experience on the US/Canada branch of MSI, but recognised that as they are a lot bigger it would be even less wise to try it with them.
Indeed. It does beg the question of how prevalent it actually is overall though.
Obviously it's impossible to completely eliminate attempts, as there's bound to be someone who will happily try any trick they can, but hopefully most companies wouldn't even consider it and make that clear to their employees - or if they did do it, stop that practice immediately and recognise that things have to change.
Last edited by Output; 05-09-2020 at 08:53 AM.
I've had a seller contact me from ebay, multiple times, asking me to '5 star' their product and if I did I'd get a refund of half the money back.... it cost like 5 quid a most to buy and was already cheaper than elsewhere and I wasn't really interested in reviewing it positively or at all (fake china account, took longer to get to me than listed etc) so I basically told them to stop sending me the messages or I'll put a negative review... they soon stopped lol.
Oh look, a mega corp sympathiser! Bezos is worth over 200 billion dollars. Amazon has cannibalised the market.
But what's that you say? Operating something fairly, equitably and with sufficient moderation and oversight is expensive? Oh no! Well we should just let them off then yes?
You know what else is expensive? Policing a society. So maybe we should just not bother because humans are just going to do foul human things right?
And a healthcare system. Why bother with that because humans naturally get sick and die foul deaths, intervention is expensive so let's not bother.
People like you who apologise for billionaire corporations using "cost" as an argument make me sick. You have a mind for monetary cost and not human cost. Disgraceful.
Tabbykatze (07-09-2020)
No idea tbh, I used to deal with people in China where I used to work a few years back, I suspect once you've reviewed one thing your email gets spread around..
The only issue I've ever had was with a set of earphones with built-in ANC, it didn't work soI emailed them, they sent another pair, so I've got 2 sets, both free but one of them is missing the ANC feature, not a huge issue as I just use one set in the car when driving and another when I walk the dog, I bought them, then they PP you back the funds post review..
Given loads of the stuff we use comes from China anyway, doesn't bother me, especially as there are those that'll bulk buy, get a decent price, then add huge margins and sell the same stuff from the UK, imply because people will pay more if its actually here in the UK (or wherever they're based)
That varied. Most of the time, hardware was collected from me by the publication and usually shipped to their photographer. Sometimes, hardware was left with me explicitly for either long-term tests, or for "reference" to a market leading product, in future tests. For example, XYZ printer or scanner is a good reference item, so when competitor printers or scanners come out over the next year or two, I can do a direct comparison. Meantime, I get to use the 'whatever'.
Sometimes, if either not needed for photography, or I did pics myself (I'm quite capable of it but some mags use the same photographer for a consistent house style, lighting, etc. Sometimes, the mag would even send the photographer to me, and I'd end up with him or her using my lounge as a temporary studio. The Telegraph did that more than most magazines, but some smaller mags were happy to keep costs down and I'd do the photography digitally, or even on occasion use 35mm slide and send them the film to scan.
Sometimes, the manufacturer would pick it up directly .... and sometimes take a year or two to do it. I think I was cheap warehousing for their review loan kit. It would then get collected direct from me to go to the next reviewer, or back to base.
And, occasionally, when I tried to arrange collection, I'd be told "oh, keep it, or dump it. Whatever". When I queried that, the explanation was that they had x number of units for press use (and often y number for major corporate eval), and that each unit owed them some number of reviews. Say, 3. If they had several already back and spare, then they could handle any odd late loan requests. In that case, paying a courier to collect was just dead money, and would cost more than it was worth to them. So I ended up with it. Sometimes, it was even something I'd use but, mostly, I bought exactly what I wanted/needed, and another item would just get in the way.
A lot depended on whether I was on one of the first to get the whatever, or the 2nd, 3rd, etc. It also depended on the company, and the size of their press kit budget.
So in short, keeping hardware was very much the exception, not the rule, but it did happen on occasion. That said, I once estimated I'd had between £1.5m and £2m in kit here over the years. If I'd kept it all, I'd need a warehouse.And be writing this from my villa in the Caribbean. Sadly, I'm not.
To be clear, I don't think I ever sold any of the kit that did get left here. Maybe once or twice that I've forgotten, but I don't think even that. Maybe gave away or 'lent' a few bits here and there. But nearly always, the loan agreement stipulated be billed for any loan kit not returned. It wasn't worth the risk unless I Had "just keep it" in writing. I also let nothing be collected without a signed collection note from the courier, just to avoid being charged.
Software was different. Mostly, the unit cost to Adobe, MS, whoever, was so low they just didn't want it back. But also, it was usually an NFR (not for resale) or loan licence, and of course, the license would show it was shipped to me. So if it started showing up for sale ....
That did mean I spent many years always having access to current versions of Windows, Office, Photoshop, PageMaker, CorelDdraw, dBase, Paradox/Delphi, and dozens of others. But making sure, as far as possible, that reviewers were familiar with current versions of their product was directly beneficial to getting a competent review of the new version when it came out. So not only was the courier cost more than their marginal cost (not normal sale price, but cost to them) but several major companies quite openly said they wanted me to keep it and use it because they get better quality reviews that way. They did, however, also tell me they fended off countless "review sample" requests from people they'd never heard of. The first few times I asked for loans from MS etc, their press office (or outside agency in many cases) wanted evidence of the commission from the editor. After a while, and especially after meeting them at launch events, it got less formal.
So software, yeah, mostly I got to keep it. But how many word processors or graphics packages do I really want, or need? Mostly, all they did was take up space. LOTS of it.
Is any of that a "bung"?
IMHO, no. I never asked for, solicited or hinted at keeping free stuff. Sometimes, though, I did actually buy ex-review kit. My Minolta film scanner is a good example of that. Another is a Canon 100mm macro lens .... though I bought the £750 twin-Flash in my local camera shop, when I probably could have got an ex-loan unit from Canon. Or maybe not. It's a pretty specialist bit of kit so I doubt they had a dozen laying about.
But re:bungs, none of that will be news to commissioning editors, and none of it comes remotely close to be even near justifying a biased review. Reviewing all that stuff brought in good second-string income, and as I said earlier, get caught biasing a review and that string would go away overnight. And besides, there's my own self-respect at stake, too.
Hope that clarifies it. If not, I'll answer anything I can.
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
That's the bit that makes me nervous. I had that suggested a couple of times in the 'old days' before internet reviews, and always refused to consider it. It's kind-of like them saying "we'll pay you, with free gear, IF we like your review."
I never paid for loan kit, whether £5 or £5000 (or more, on occasion). I do remember once going for a wander in the park with three top-end DSLRs, each worth in the region of £5k, plus another £5k+ in lenses, battery packs, etc. One each from Nikon, Canon and Minolta, IIRC, when they (and a Kodak-branded midel) were about all you could get in DSLRs. I certainly don't much fancy paying for that lot, and getting it back later.
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
here are the current invites/offers sat in my email junk folder:
Nice day!
My name is <snip>, we are the Amazon seller in UK. We are specialized in the field of domestic camera.
We recently had a new wifi ptz camera in Amazon. We would like to invite you to try them for free. We sincerely hope you consider the following product.
let us get one and give our home an excellent security !Nice day!
My name is <snip>, we are the Amazon seller in UK. We are specialized in the field of domestic camera.
We recently had a new wifi battery camera in Amazon. We would like to invite you to try them for free. We sincerely hope you consider the following product.
let us get one and give our home an excellent security !Dear <snip>
Hello,
We are amazon seller.
We saw your profile on Amazon,and we know you are one of the most respected reviewers.
We were wondering whether you could kindly review one of our products on Amazon:
The first one and second one are gaming headsets and the third one is bluetooth headphones.
The last one is wireless earbuds, it has high quality and easy to use.
The last one is nail clippers.
All of them are well made and have good sound quality.
We hope you can help us do the 5 stars review with photos.
If you are interested,please feel free to tell us.
We will transfer the product fee to your paypal account.
Besides, my friend, if you would like to take the neckband bluetooth headphones or nail clippers, we would send you $5 as a commission fee.
Looking forward to your reply.
Many thanks
Best wishes
<snip>
Who buys nail clippers? Surely everyone's got a pair hanging around from a cracker?
Dear UKSeller,
I am happy to do an impartial review of your product, and to provide a 5-star review if the product merits it. My standard rates for such work are £750/1000 words, or part thereof, and photos are charged at £40/photo. All funds are required to be remitted in advance on pro-forma invoice.
Yours faithfully,
NotAMug.
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
[GSV]Trig (05-09-2020),Output (05-09-2020),Tabbykatze (07-09-2020)
I was restricted from reviewing and commenting on others' reviews on Amazon UK because I dared to question the reviews on products which included rewards for leaving 5 star reviews and for questioning 5 star reviews left for products (which I bought myself and which barely rated above 1 star).
Amazons response was to threaten to delete my account and then they limited my interactions with reviewing any products.
Not a single swear word was used ever, nothing untoward at all, I merely just question the reviews, especially those that started out with a big pointless backstory and ended with an amazing review of the product and a 5 star rating, from obvious profiteering and those reviewers getting products for free or full refunds (even small profits) after leaving 5 star reviews.
Amazon is completely dishonest, their reviews CANNOT ever be trusted, forever tainted.
You bought a pack of crackers with nail clippers embedded in them? That's got to be in breach of food hygiene laws surely? I hope you gave it a 1* review.
Well, two things.
First, that suggestion was designed to scare them off. Standard business practice .... suggest double (or whatever) rate, and if someone is daft enough ....
Secondly, now, I'm certainly only interested in reviewing things that interested me, if even then. But, back in the day, I'd review anything that paid provided I felt I had the expertise to do it.
For instance, a while ago I was asked to review some smartphones. At the time, my smartest phone had 10 call memories, and just about did texts. I do now (somewhat reluctantly) have one but I still don't have the range of knowledge to review smartphones .... unless the brief explicitly required an inexperienced user's perspective. That, I certainly have.
As a business, my logic was always "Do I have the expertise do do a review this publication's readers would find useful?"
If yes, I'd do it, whether it interested me or not. If no, I wouldn't do it even if I found interesting personally (unless it was a "novice" approach, as above. I like to think it was a professional perspective - I'm being paid for a good job, not personal fun.
Now, it'd be backwards. I'd do if if I was interested, and get paid, but if not interested, I wouldn't do it, regardless of pay (unless a totally stupid amount was on offer). It would be done more was a hobby than a profession/job.
So ... if the reply above quoting rates was somehow accepted, it would turn out I had an, erm, scheduling problem, and I can fit it in about, erm .... how does Summer 2023 sound?
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
All of that makes a lot of sense, thank you for the clarification of your experiences. It certainly makes your point about trusting physical written publications more - although I'd imagine that as time goes on, more and more at digital ones such as HEXUS (and others like Anandtech etc.) staff would have the same sort of experience with review samples as the physical ones.
Sites like HEXUS probably already have for a long time already of course, but I'd imagine that it's a harder point to get to than physical publications (although I guess little-known physical ones would likely find it just as hard at first, so perhaps it's more a matter of longevity).
In the case of Level1Techs, SK Hynix were the ones to contact Wendell about reviewing it. Given their size and being the manufacturer themselves, I'd imagine they could probably have written off the costs of giving the samples away easily rather than being loaners - it's just a shame they tried to go the route of it influencing the tone of the review by not saying anything bad about it or not comparing it to competitors that would give a better picture of the performance.
The product itself (his purchased sample) didn't even get a bad review, but with the revelations of what they tried to pull with the review sample offering, it does taint SK Hynix and the product they tried it with.
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