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Thread: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Due to the ongoing GPU shortage, I stupidly sold my 1080 to a customer earlier in the year, and the only replacement I could find was a 2060. DLSS has been a huge boon in getting playable framerates on my 2560x1440 display. Whilst I'd prefer *not* to use it, the 2060 isn't really up to handling that res in high detail, so DLSS has come to the rescue.

    Haven't tried FSR, but from what DF has said about it, it isn't quite the same thing. I think we'll have to see how it works in real games.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Having invested a second mortgage in an RX6900 XT I would have to go FSR..

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Personally if an expensive GPU can't run games at 1440p and 4K natively,and needs upscaling/image reconstruction already its not going to have a decent lifespan IMHO. Despite the bleating from various tech channels,modern GPUs still are too weak WRT to RT,and AMD/Nvidia are trying to sell underperforming GPUs for premium pricing. DLSS/FSR is basically admitting the hardware is too weak to really push these effects. It reminds me of tessellation - the ATI 8000 series had it with Truform in 2001. It took until Nvidia Fermi/HD5000 series in 2009/2010 for it to be really useable IMHO.

    1440p and 4K have been around for years,and you can monitors with these resolutions for under £200 now! Its more useful for people like me on older GPUs,and those who are trying to use newer entry level and mainstream GPUs at 1440p/4K.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 03-07-2021 at 06:41 PM.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Personally if an expensive GPU can't run games at 1440p and 4K natively,and needs upscaling/image reconstruction already its not going to have a decent lifespan IMHO. Despite the bleating from various tech channels,modern GPUs still are too weak WRT to RT,and AMD/Nvidia are trying to sell underperforming GPUs for premium pricing. DLSS/FSR is basically admitting the hardware is too weak to really push these effects. It reminds me of tessellation - the ATI 8000 series had it with Truform in 2001. It took until Nvidia Fermi/HD5000 series in 2009/2010 for it to be really useable IMHO.

    1440p and 4K have been around for years,and you can monitors with these resolutions for under £200 now! Its more useful for people like me on older GPUs,and those who are trying to use newer entry level and mainstream GPUs at 1440p/4K.
    Don't need a heck of alot for 1440p, the hurdle and grand myth still is 4K Native, also that there is 30XX variants that is not on pair or better than GPUS 2 generations ago is a big downfall as well, only new thing is RTX what?!? why I want more eye candy when the piece of crap can't run min fps 100 native with ultra settings at 4K. :d

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Just look at CB2077 - it doesn't even use that much RT effects,and with an RTX3070 you can barely get 30FPS on Ultra with RT on, at 1440p native resolution. Without RT off you can just about get 60FPS(but lower minimums) on Ultra. The whole point of spending so much on a new GPU for gaming is to be able to turn up settings,but these GPUs struggle at launch without DLSS/FSR. On top of this,the RTX3070 has only 8GB of VRAM. It wouldn't matter so much if a 70 series GPU used to be £300ish,but now they are moving towards £500. A 60 series GPU is now moving towards £400. An 80 series GPU is well over £600 RRP.

    Essentially with the move to proper RT,we are back to 1080p for most gamers again,or 1440p if you want to use a fancier way of using in-game upscaling.The RT effects are not as heavily used as they could be,because the hardware is not fast enough to do so - even Epic and other companies,are looking at other ways to do things in addition to proper RT,ie,Lumen.

    So what happens in a year or two?? Compare that with Pascal,you will start to see that Ampere/RDNA2 isn't going to have a similar lifespan IMHO,unless you don't use RT or you use DLSS/FSR.It even gets worse when you look at the consoles - I don't think any GPU under £450 is going to convincingly beat a XBox Series X,especially after you start getting devs properly using the hardware on next generation only games(as opposed to jazzed up versions of previous generation games,which many channels don't seem to realise won't really tax them,and low ball console GPU performance).

    AMD/Nvidia are pushing RT in everything but the hardware is at least a generation or two away to be able to do it without resorting to upscaling/image reconstruction. However,both AMD and Nvidia are using RT to push the price up of their GPUs,and then trying tricks to hide their subpar performance in RT. Nvidia has to stretch the truth and say "better than native" for DLSS.

    Its why when Nvidia tried the same thing with tessellation,it was quite evident it wouldn't really matter for most mainstream GPUs(because by the time Kepler/GCN came along the mainstream GPUs were too slow anyway).

    This is my big issue - sure I can get a rasterisation improvement over my current old GPU,if I get a new one. However,I won't be getting an increase in VRAM,and RT just runs like crap from day one and will be irrelevant in a relatively short time. So I question is it worth upgrading?? Its why FSR is more useful I suppose,because I think it might be more prudent to wait another generation with what I have(if the GPU keeps working,which is my bigger concern than shiny effects).
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 03-07-2021 at 10:19 PM.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Yes absolutely. My goal is 60 fps and low W usage, so even if I can hit 60 fps, I will still use those to lower my power usage and keep my videocard cooler.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Would I use ...?

    Yes .... depending on the situation.

    I'm not a hardcore gamer (not any more, anyway) and so my perspective would depend on whether the difference with, say, DLSS on or off enhanced or detracted from my gaming experience, and (assuming it was available) what the cost of raw hardware would be.

    If the hardware solution was an extra £1000 (or probably even £250) then my options would probably be, in desending order :-

    - use DLSS unless utterly unaceptable, or
    - use lower settings, or
    - play a different game, or
    - just don't bother.

    If I struggled to tell whether it was on or off, then yeah, I would.

    There are things I will spend serious money on (cars, camera gear, some computerbits, and others) and some I won't (like gaming cards, unless I also need them for something else). Though, these days, not so much on cars either.
    Last edited by Saracen999; 04-07-2021 at 03:29 PM. Reason: weird word-mangling typo
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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    If I had to.. yes, but even then I'm still waiting for AMD's ML Superresolution, watch this space

    But I'd rather have the power to run native resolutions.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Jensen told me that the new 3xxx series cards were 8k gaming cards (with pricing to match) straight out of his oven.
    I've since found out they just about deliver 1440 res.
    But, but but DLSS say the tech press.
    No thank you very much.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    ....

    But I'd rather have the power to run native resolutions.
    Oh, absolutely, despite my comments above .... provided the premium wasn't too big, and depending on the impact of the likes of DLSS on the enjoyment of the game.

    Put it like this - I would prefer native res. Who wouldn't? But there is an element of bang-for-buck in that. A hardcore gamer would be prepared (funds permitting) to spend MUCH more on that than I would.

    I used to utterly bemuse some of my friends with my choice of hifi components? Stax headphones? How much???? Mitchell turntable? HOW MUCH !!!!????? And so on. They might spent a few hundred quid on a system, but I'd spend that on a cartridge .... and I mean, in the '70s and '80s when a few hundred quid was way more than it is now. A Capri 2.8 Injection Special was, like, £8.5 to £9k .... and in some areas, you could buy a HOUSE for less than that (and I don't mean a dump, in a dive of an area, but a nice if small place).

    I was prepared to pay quite a bit for increasinly small incremental benefits in (my perception of) sound quality. So I think much that same logic applies to using DLSS or buying (currently, at least) way more expensive hardware. It all depends (for me) on how much difference there is in visuals between the two and from what I see in reviews, it's not much, most of the time.

    "Not much" might be enough for a serious gamer, like it was for me and hifi (anyone know where an ol' fart like me can buy a decent ear upgrade? ), assuming that serious gamer can actually afford the hardware, of course. But for me, it's all about how much marginally inferior graphics affects my enjoyment of a game? If it kills that enjoyment, it would be a non-starter. But if, while I can see it if I really look for it but it has little or no effect on the game enjoyment, then DLSS is a good option.

    And of course, just as (sadly) my hearing isn't what it was for music appreciation, my eyes and reaction times aren't what they were for gaming, either, which would also impact of how much my enjoyment would be impacted. Getting old is a ..... rhymes with itch.
    A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    Oh, absolutely, despite my comments above .... provided the premium wasn't too big, and depending on the impact of the likes of DLSS on the enjoyment of the game.

    Put it like this - I would prefer native res. Who wouldn't? But there is an element of bang-for-buck in that. A hardcore gamer would be prepared (funds permitting) to spend MUCH more on that than I would.

    I used to utterly bemuse some of my friends with my choice of hifi components? Stax headphones? How much???? Mitchell turntable? HOW MUCH !!!!????? And so on. They might spent a few hundred quid on a system, but I'd spend that on a cartridge .... and I mean, in the '70s and '80s when a few hundred quid was way more than it is now. A Capri 2.8 Injection Special was, like, £8.5 to £9k .... and in some areas, you could buy a HOUSE for less than that (and I don't mean a dump, in a dive of an area, but a nice if small place).

    I was prepared to pay quite a bit for increasinly small incremental benefits in (my perception of) sound quality. So I think much that same logic applies to using DLSS or buying (currently, at least) way more expensive hardware. It all depends (for me) on how much difference there is in visuals between the two and from what I see in reviews, it's not much, most of the time.

    "Not much" might be enough for a serious gamer, like it was for me and hifi (anyone know where an ol' fart like me can buy a decent ear upgrade? ), assuming that serious gamer can actually afford the hardware, of course. But for me, it's all about how much marginally inferior graphics affects my enjoyment of a game? If it kills that enjoyment, it would be a non-starter. But if, while I can see it if I really look for it but it has little or no effect on the game enjoyment, then DLSS is a good option.

    And of course, just as (sadly) my hearing isn't what it was for music appreciation, my eyes and reaction times aren't what they were for gaming, either, which would also impact of how much my enjoyment would be impacted. Getting old is a ..... rhymes with itch.
    The problem is modern GPUs,are giving you almost less for more. So a top end GPU 10 years ago,would be the equivalent of £500~£600 in todays money. The equivalent is between £1300~£1500 RRP now,and that isn't taking into consideration street pricing,mining,etc which has further jacked up pricing. This has also meant mainstream and entry level GPUs are increasingly going up in price,and seeing worse progressions from generation to generation. That means a mainstream GPU will have even a shorter lifespan. DLSS/FSR are making up for mediocre generation improvements over the last 5 years,and AMD/Nvidia trying to push RT when its really too much for the hardware. This is a cheaper way to increase their margins.

    The issue is even at launch,these GPUs can barely run taxing games at qHD/4K at 60FPS,with RT on,etc. This is why they need DLSS,FSR,etc to render internally at a lower resolution. So what happens in 2 years or 4 years time? A lot of hardware enthusiasts on forums upgrade every year or two,so don't see this issue,and throw money at their hobby. But its a different kettle of fish for most normal gamers who don't change hardware anywhere as quickly. These GPUs won't be suitable at running any of these RT effects to any degree by that time. IMHO and you will need to switch them off defeating the point of spending so much. But AMD/Nvidia are using RT to say these GPUs are worth so much. Yet PCMR was mocking consoles for doing the same,but at least these are cheap.

    So at this point,one has to question whether its better to just ignore RT entirely,and stop chasing better looking graphics. The latter was only viable because ATI,Nvidia,etc not only made GPUs to fit all pockets,but also we had very good improvements at each generation. However,now they all want to be like Apple,so have decided to act like cartels and just push the pricing higher and higher.

    The difference with a £1500 pair of headphones,its going to sound great in 10 years time,and be competitive with newer equivalents. It will have a resale value. A GPU will be a lead weight,within 5~6 years especially as they will lack hardware features and driver support. In 20 years the headphones will still be a thing you can use. IMHO, a £1500 pair of headphones,a turntable,amp,etc are better value for money.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 04-07-2021 at 09:20 PM.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    I've been using DLSS Quality at 1440p with a 3080 when ever it is supported. It looks fantastic with the newer DLL, 2.2+. In comparison FSR is not looking so good at 1440p and becomes unuseable at 1080p on my laptop.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    Put it like this - I would prefer native res. Who wouldn't? But there is an element of bang-for-buck in that. A hardcore gamer would be prepared (funds permitting) to spend MUCH more on that than I would.
    That's a good point. As the local knitting club likes to say, life's a stitch

    There's also the possibility that sacrificing resolution IQ gains rendering budget for IQ benefits elsewhere - maybe lower res + RT reflections is better than higher res in some circumstances? Who knows for future IQ advances too.

    But for me right now and the kind of games I play, texture/geometry detail is pretty much king. I even accept some performance loss on games like Forza Horizon 4 so that my landscapes look super crisp with lots of anisotropic filtering and negative LODs etc.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    I would only use the upscaling to allow me to use ray tracing.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    I only have an rx480 so if any games give me FSR I'll take it (Essential when I have a 1440p monitor). No point in buying a new GPU until the prices become more sensible.
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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    I play at 3440x1440 on a 5900x and a 3090 and use DLSS if available. I can't see any difference in the gfx when the thing is turned to quality, but I do see a slight improvement in frame rate.

    It's basically a free win, I can't understand why would anyone not take it.

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