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Thread: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

  1. #33
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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Yes I use it...and why not?

    Most gamers - i'd wager over 95% - simply cannot tell the difference between DLSS on in quality mode, and native resolution, in-game. Sure you can take screenshots/pause etc and hunt down the detail differences - but in reality that is not how we play games, and it generally looks good enough for people not to care or notice. The most common phrases on all of those "compare DLSS on and off" videos are along the lines of "If you pause here and look closely"...which says it all to me imo.

    I personally don't care if a game needs DLSS to run at a respectable framerate with all the eye candy turned on - does it look good, run well and play well? yes - in which case i'm happy. That's what most care about.

    I have a much bigger issue with games that force "Film Grain" and "motion blur" effects on us to hide performance/engine issues - those two settings make games look worse and affect everyone, regardless of your GPU

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud1 View Post
    Most gamers - i'd wager over 95% - simply cannot tell the difference between DLSS on in quality mode, and native resolution, in-game.
    Save your money - Linus already did a test of his staff, most of whom had no idea which versions of the games had stuff switched on or off. IIRC, Anthony got full marks, but only because he knew exactly what to look for and got right up close to see.

    For me, my screen is 1440, so as long as it runs in that and looks good at reasonable frames, I'll use whatever. Basically, if I can't detect the differences without having to use monitoring software, it's all good.
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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spud1 View Post
    Yes I use it...and why not?

    Most gamers - i'd wager over 95% - simply cannot tell the difference between DLSS on in quality mode, and native resolution, in-game. Sure you can take screenshots/pause etc and hunt down the detail differences - but in reality that is not how we play games, and it generally looks good enough for people not to care or notice. The most common phrases on all of those "compare DLSS on and off" videos are along the lines of "If you pause here and look closely"...which says it all to me imo.

    I personally don't care if a game needs DLSS to run at a respectable framerate with all the eye candy turned on - does it look good, run well and play well? yes - in which case i'm happy. That's what most care about.

    I have a much bigger issue with games that force "Film Grain" and "motion blur" effects on us to hide performance/engine issues - those two settings make games look worse and affect everyone, regardless of your GPU
    You have a GPU over £1000,and it is so weak you need to use upscaling/image reconstruction from the get-go?? I honestly thought an RTX3090 wouldn't need it,and here I was complaining about the RTX3070,etc not being great at it! So what is the point for the rest of us if RT is so poor on modern hardware,that the most powerful GPU can barely run it properly. Wow,that means an RTX3090 is going to struggle in another year or two once RT effects start getting more intensive,and AMD is even worse.

    You have basically put me off wanting to buy a modern GPU from this generation for RT. I was already a bit marginal about it as you can see,but its cleared any doubt in my mind now. Thanks - I think that has made me finally decide I can wait another generation of GPU,unless my hand is forced. I already know my mates RTX3060TI struggles with RT,unless they used DLSS in some way and they were not that happy with its RT performance,and that cost them nearly £450. Anything under that is sub console performance anyway.

    Without RT and some fiddling my old GPU seems OK enough to last another year or so,if the GPU keeps working. I might have to avoid the odd game or two,but I think its OK. FSR might also help a bit. Its no point when even a mighty RTX3090 is running out of steam now - I tend to keep my GPUs for years,and even then can't justify nearly £1500 on a GPU,and its not like my SFF PC can take such a beast!

    Roll on RTX4000 and RDNA3!
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 05-07-2021 at 01:55 PM.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    I said this in a previous thread on a similar topic but I don't get the hate for DLSS and don't see why you wouldn't use it if you have a card that supports it.

    We're at a stage where DLSS Qual can produce better than native results with less comparative GPU power/RAM and unlocking stuff like RT (where performance is inherently tied to resolution). Since time began games have been running effects at a fraction of screen resolution/lower precision because running them at full tanks performance for little to no effect.

    Every modern game engine will be support DLSS (and FSR) going ahead, and even stuff like UE4 and a built in TAA as part of the rendering pipeline which can't be turned off. This isn't going to change going ahead, as evident with UE5 and its temporal upscaling solution that's built in - these are a world away from the crap shoot solutions in Far Cry 3 and the like years ago.
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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Terbinator View Post
    We're at a stage where DLSS Qual can produce better than native results
    Only if you are forced to run smeary TAA at native or something. I've yet to see examples of DLSS being better than native with a decent AA.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Only if you are forced to run smeary TAA at native or something. I've yet to see examples of DLSS being better than native with a decent AA.
    Have you noticed how the tech media,AMD,Nvidia,etc were all pushing those decent AA effects a few years go. But with RT,suddenly all mention has gone away??

    10~15 years ago ATI/Nvidia did try and make "adaptive" image quality for their GPUs,since they believed it would boost performance a decent amount for a small visual loss. Yet PCMR and the tech media called them out for cheating.

    I even remember some of the tech media,and enthusiasts hating on TAA because of its console origins. There are more PC focused devs who refused to use TAA,because its frankly shouldn't be a primary AA method in PC games.After all TAA is a very console focused AA method,because consoles tend to use lower internal rendering targets,and insufficient processing power. The blur is there to hide the jaggies of low resolution rendering from a distance. Its a peasant level AA method,made for weak systems. The only reason its in so many PC games,is because consoles are increasingly the main development platform for said games,and the devs CBA spending any effort pushing other methods.

    This is also why relative comparisons are big problem. People don't step back and look at what is actually capable in games as a whole.

    Its like those sales people at PCWorld/Currys who have two TVs,and then fiddle with the settings on one,and show how one is better than the other. Then they try to push you away from looking at the other TVs.

    Companies knows this relative marketing works. Look at PhysX. More attentive people started to show even back then,Nvidia was actually removing simple CPU physics effects,when PhysX was off,but then when it was switched on they suddenly turned up,together with the other effects. People also forgot games such as Red Faction,which did insane physics effects,just on the CPU.

    Before and After is a classic marketing tactic. QVC uses it,the local person at the market uses,etc.

    Even with DLSS and FSR hype,it makes me laugh. A few years ago,the same PCMR was massively against upscaling/image reconstruction,as they were slagging off consoles when Sony/MS promoted 4K TV gaming with checkerboard rendering,etc:
    https://venturebeat.com/2016/09/08/p...doesnt-matter/

    On so many enthusiast websites,PCMR was laughing at consoles being "fake" 4K. Now the tune has changed because its now in vogue with PC. So where are all the articles now saying the current GPUs are not "true 4K" RT GPUs,because they need upscaling/image reconstruction,etc?? Upscaling is a benefit for PC,and a con for consoles? Hypocracy comes to mind!

    A few years ago it was all about 4K,120FPS,HDR,native resolution rendering(unlike those consoles and their "fake" rendering),supersampling,and now its back to 60FPS,RT,upscaling,etc.

    Is DLSS and FSR useful additions to the toolkit? Yes,they are. But what I don't understand is the utter hype from enthusiasts,like its the second coming of the creator. Upscaling/image reconstruction methods have existed in PC games and consoles for years. Its almost Apple like in some ways now.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 05-07-2021 at 03:46 PM.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    Have you noticed how the tech media,AMD,Nvidia,etc were all pushing those decent AA effects a few years go. But with RT,suddenly all mention has gone away??
    Yeah. Partly that's not their fault - the common way to render games these days unfortunately rules out a lot of AA methods without significant dev work, and the choice tends to be between FXAA/MLAA type methods (which FSR is close to), TAA, and full on super sampling. Hardly anyone has the budget for super sampling (but anyone can enable it via desktop resolution/control panels). FXAA methods are poor.. so TAA is the best of a bad choice.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalniel View Post
    Yeah. Partly that's not their fault - the common way to render games these days unfortunately rules out a lot of AA methods without significant dev work, and the choice tends to be between FXAA/MLAA type methods (which FSR is close to), TAA, and full on super sampling. Hardly anyone has the budget for super sampling (but anyone can enable it via desktop resolution/control panels). FXAA methods are poor.. so TAA is the best of a bad choice.
    Yes,but the issue is they could talk about it. Its quite clear a lot of PC games,are really console ports now,not only in the use of TAA,but even down to certain aspects of the design(and dumbing down compared to their PC only ancestors),or even stuff such as the control systems,or lack of control customisations,or controller focused combat systems. Its only some of the smaller,independent reviewers who see to highlight this now IMHO.

    But they chose not to,especially with all the nonsense "better than native" rubbish,which is almost Apple level marketing. Then reading the marketing documents,and thinking upscaling and image reconstruction are separate things.

    Also,how some well known review sites,then have buried some of the issues with image reconstruction methods especially in motion. Only a few good ones,have started to look at the claim,and realise it comes with "caveats" but its drowned out by all the others who CBA. Basically selling you less for more,but thinking you got more whilst reinventing the wheel. Apple is masterful at doing it.

    I have seen so many instances where these reviewers,seem to not even report accurately what their own comparison images show,or even ignoring motion artefacts and this is from some major reviewers. These people work with things such as PS,etc so you can basically have a clue what AMD/Nvidia are doing to make the images "look better" and they are just trying to overmarket something as being greater than the sum of their parts.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 05-07-2021 at 04:07 PM.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by CAT-THE-FIFTH View Post
    So at this point,one has to question whether its better to just ignore RT entirely,and stop chasing better looking graphics.
    I get the argument in the entire post, but in reference to that point - absolutely where I am.

    I'm willing to fork out a reasonable chunk of change on a GPU (and "reasonable" is a subjective term, but it's not, in my case, about gaming. It's more about video encoding/transcioding.

    WRT gaming, :-

    - I'm not a hardcore gamer these days, and
    - I'm much more about actual gameplay than fancy graphics.

    By which I mean, I'm not particularly into action/shooters, and, to reference classics, just as happy with with a Myst/Pirates (Threepwood) as with Quake, and in either case, I'd rather have good plot, puzzles and/or humour, than fancy graphics.

    And I know, it's a very personal perspective based on my interests but, yes, I most definitely am not chasing better graphics. That's why I'd used DLSS etc provided it wasn't a huge compromise (and from what I read, it isn't) than throw lots of extra wedge at high-end cards.

    To put that another way, I can afford to throw a fair bit of cash at tech toys, and am willing to provided it is a high enough priority, but can't throw lotsa wonga at every tech toy. It's an "opportunity cost" and diminishing marginal benefit issue. Gaming graphics just aren't a priority, or rather, not high enough a priority. There's a long list of higher priorities, and sadly, longer than the level of cash needed to indulge them all without limit.
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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    I'll use whatever gives me the best image quality/fps/responsiveness combo. I think we all would, even those claiming they would never use DLSS/FSR will do quietly if they found it worked for them.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saracen999 View Post
    I get the argument in the entire post, but in reference to that point - absolutely where I am.

    I'm willing to fork out a reasonable chunk of change on a GPU (and "reasonable" is a subjective term, but it's not, in my case, about gaming. It's more about video encoding/transcioding.

    WRT gaming, :-

    - I'm not a hardcore gamer these days, and
    - I'm much more about actual gameplay than fancy graphics.

    By which I mean, I'm not particularly into action/shooters, and, to reference classics, just as happy with with a Myst/Pirates (Threepwood) as with Quake, and in either case, I'd rather have good plot, puzzles and/or humour, than fancy graphics.

    And I know, it's a very personal perspective based on my interests but, yes, I most definitely am not chasing better graphics. That's why I'd used DLSS etc provided it wasn't a huge compromise (and from what I read, it isn't) than throw lots of extra wedge at high-end cards.

    To put that another way, I can afford to throw a fair bit of cash at tech toys, and am willing to provided it is a high enough priority, but can't throw lotsa wonga at every tech toy. It's an "opportunity cost" and diminishing marginal benefit issue. Gaming graphics just aren't a priority, or rather, not high enough a priority. There's a long list of higher priorities, and sadly, longer than the level of cash needed to indulge them all without limit.
    Don't get me wrong FSR/DLSS/TAAU are useful technologies,but my main concern is that we need to use them from day one on expensive GPUs. Its one thing if you are needing to use it in a few years,or are buying a £200 GPU and want to game at a decent resolution.

    But if its the case of having to spend £400+ and use it from the get go,it means the GPU is already going to struggle with the effects over time. If I can't run the effects for a large percentage of the lifespan of the new GPU,I might as well just use FSR/TAAU/ingame scaling on the old GPU I have and be done with it.

    I think the main issue is I intend to keep the GPU for a few years,and many just upgrade so frequently before it becomes a problem.
    Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 06-07-2021 at 05:36 PM.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Quote Originally Posted by Euphonium View Post
    I would rather run 1080p or 1440p native than 4k with any sort of upscaling.
    This ^^ I prefer to play at 1440p native, no upscaling for me. Maybe once they improve it more in 2 years or so...but if I have a choice then native resolution all the way

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Why would you not use them if you can't run at max settings at native resolution? A blank screen at 40000k is still a blank screen, resolution =/= detail.
    If it's a small difference in game settings then sure go native, but if you have to set everything to low anyway then using combinations ofupscaling and tuned settings gets you most of the way there and looks so much better. No way in new games 4k native on low settings looks better than 4k@80% upscaled on max settings. When you turn the settings to low you remove whole details and effects not just reduce texture resolution, so how is seeing low res, detail missing textures @4k native better than seeing much higher res and full detail textures @80%4k upscaled? Think about draw distance, on low you get lovely close textures and a few step away they turn crappy with no details at all, on high it goes for miles regardless of the resolution. I want immersion and realism, not the warm fuzzies knowing I'm seeing less impressive images at a higher theoretical resolution.

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    I'm still using 1080p gear at the moment so I don't really need it but both give impressive results. I'd have no problems using either. First proper taste will probably be when FSR hits the new consoles (and I can get hold of one!).

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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Considering I'm still on an ancient GTX 1080 (non-Ti), anything 3000 series is unobtanium and my card struggles with running modern games in native 1440p without dialing down the settings a lot, I'd gladly use FSR to effectively run games in 1080 and upscale to 1440 if the results are decent enough. It might also help my 2nd/old PC to linger around a bit longer with its GTX 970, if FSR manages to get games that would normally struggle to run up to playable framerates (read: close to or exceeding 60).
    DLSS being RTX-only, I simply don't care about at all ("yay more FPS for people who already blew tons of money on a new GPU! oh you're on an older card? well forget you then ")

    There's already a mod for GTA V/Online to cobble-in FSR support and it seems to do pretty well, even if it's not official and therefore probably not as effective as it could be. Sadly one of the games I play the most (CoD MW19) and which could use some help to get running better only supports DLSS so it'll continue to either run like or look like rubbish for me unless I shell out more than what my entire PC is worth for an objectively pretty mediocre RTX 3070 or something...

    Not exactly fun times for PC gaming in general IMHO :|

    edit: didn't think this forum was full of wusses WRT language. why bother putting effort in posting here at all if I get warned left right and center. screw this "family friendly" clown show.. I'm out
    Last edited by Bambooz; 08-07-2021 at 10:48 AM.

  20. #48
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    Re: QOTW: Are you willing to use either DLSS or FSR?

    Depends how bothersome the visual artefacts are really. DLSS on Warzone for example isn't that great, there's a fair amount of ghosting and blur on distant objects, something I can't tolerate for long especially on a fast-paced competitive game.

    I've read that 2.2 apparently fixes these issues but there isn't an official update yet, so in the meantime I'll just stay on native res which my 3060 Ti comfortably handles anyway.

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