If they stick to the current criteria. There is a school of thought that MS are .... rethinking .... some of those criteria. Whether that is true or not I've no idea, but if they stick to current minimum spec, they are going to risk intensely irritating an awful lot of people.Originally Posted by jwsg
A lesson learned from PeterB about dignity in adversity, so Peter, In Memorium, "Onwards and Upwards".
CAT-THE-FIFTH (27-07-2021)
Not massively surprised - I suspect its part of their revenue model for Win 11. They will market Windows 11 as a large upgrade to the home market, (many) thousands will want it and find they can't have it..FOMO will ensue and they will buy a new PC.
New PC = both happy SI's and more revenue for Microsoft. That makes sense as they are giving it away "free" (in terms of money paid..how much windows really costs you is a different question!) to many others.
It sucks for many of us who would like to run it on what i'd still consider to be recent hardware, but equally we're the ones willing to work around it, so can probably deal wtih it.
There may be some minor bad press around this, but overall I think its the right business decision for MS.
Not sure how blocking people from upgrading is going to keep devices more productive, have a better experience, and better security than ever before so they can stay protected, in just over 3 years they won't be, they'll just be a mountain of e-waste.
Also i know companies want people to always buy the new thing they've just released but calling their own devices "capable but slightly out of date" when they're only 4 years old is a bit extreme, even Apple support their hardware longer than that.
CAT-THE-FIFTH (27-07-2021)
I think the best thing about win11 for me is that if I choose to stay on windows I still don't have to actually "upgrade" until 2025. By then my i7-2700k, i7-3770k, and i3-4330 desktops and i5-4210M laptop might finally be old enough that I won't want to keep them around anymore. OTOH I still occasionally use my old K6/III-400, so who knows?
Enthusiasts on forums forgot all the bad press about Vista,8,etc which meant they never did that well. It was mostly bad press from non-techies due to their bugginess and excessive hardware requirements.
Windows 10 only gained traction because Vista and 8 was so poor,and Windows 7 and 10 seemed better and was more or less given away as an apology. In between them,MS showed similar hubris to know,but ended up screwing up as a result. But all the tinkering MS is doing with Windows 10,has actually pushed more non-techies towards other OSes now.
Hardware enthusiasts and gamers on forums don't care,as they will jump to any new MS OS,which means they can self justify new hardware,and so do MS fans. Most non-techies I know don't seem to even care that among about Windows anymore. Its lost its allure over the last decade. Unless you are a gamer,most I have seen just replace hardware when its not working properly. People are far more interested in upgrading their smartphone more often,as it gets far more use.
For the average person Windows 11 does not anything much differently and all MS is doing is artifically locking out devices. Unfortunately for MS and all their fans,there are far more Android/iOS devices and I see increasing number of non-techy people using such OSes for daily use. The hardware is getting more and more powerful now.
Also MS has forgotten,that so many people and businesses have pushed forward hardware purchases due to work from home,so its most likely SIs and MS have cocked up on the timing. Most non-techy and non-gaming types from my experience will keep their laptops and desktops for years,hence why there is such a huge market for secondhand and refurbished desktops and laptops. Many on tech forums don't seem to realise how big it is.
All I can see by then if MS makes it harder to run Windows 11,people will just ditch their Windows 10 devices and not bother with another Windows device. They can just put more money into their Android/iOS/ChromeOS devices. In fact in many countries,and especially among much younger people worldwide their Android/iOS device is their main PC.
For power users,Linux exists. The reality is outside of PC gamers increasingly Windows does not have that ironclad grip it once had. However,even PC gaming revenue is still smaller than smartphones,tablets and consoles overall.
The long support times of MS OSes was one of the good things they did,but if they end up cutting down more and more,then for most there is no real disadvantage compared to an Android/iOS/ChromeOS device then. Ultimately a very poor longterm business decision from MS,who increasingly seems like Intel,stuck in an echo chamber of yes people. It was the same issue you saw with them in denial about Windows Vista and Windows 8.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 27-07-2021 at 11:29 PM.
You are so so wrong. Check out the amount percentage wise that business users use Win 10 compared to any other OS. iOS and OSx are gaining ground but so slowly compared to numbers sold and Android is only gaining from sheer numbers of devices. July market share is 77% worldwide.
Win 11 is aimed at businesses and they will just factor in the upgrades when they do upgrade in a couple of years time both to Win 11 and the hardware. They will love the new touted security options etc. 77% is a massive amount and yes it is down but still nowhere near being challenged. Businesses are unlikely to put money into iOS etc. because if they did then we would have seen the shift already and it's not happened yet and I seriously doubt it will
Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!
Pleiades (28-07-2021)
Most sales of Windows are to consumers AFAIK,not businesses.TPM2 and Bitlocker already existed before(just like on my Skylake business laptop) in Windows 10 Pro/Enterprise,so Windows 11 does not offer anything new to business users. Most of the changes are on the consumer side,so its a consumer orientated OS.
Plus last time I checked it took years and years for many businesses/governments to upgrade to Windows 7,and then Windows 10. Stuff needs to be tested and validated especially if its mission criticial. So I am not sure why hardware enthusiasts on forums need to keep spinning,the but,but businesses line. The same was said with Vista and 8/8.1 too and businesses and many non-techies hated them because of the excessive hardware and software requirements,and incompatbility problems.
Businesses are here to make money,and give as less of it to companies like MS,etc. So many businesses will push old hardware and software as much as possible. Let sleeping dogs lie!
There are so many instances I have seen in government,engineering,science and company use of them not upgrading to newer software because of the massive faff and cost associated with the changes. So when the old hardware goes kaput,they use new hardware to run the older software via VMs or compatability modes. So I see nowhere where increasing costs for businesses is something they want to do - not everyone is Amazon or Google who throw billions at stuff. Maybe where you work its different,but its not going to be the case for many businesses even here,let alone in many other markets. OS changes are more of a PITA.
Regarding numbers you might want to look at the bigger issue MS has. There are 3 billion Android devices:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/18/2...es-google-2021
There are nearly 1 billion iPhones(out of nearly 1.5 billion Apple devices):
https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/28/apple...unning-ios-13/
That is nearly 4 billion devices with iOS/Android already. Windows 10 is stuck at around 1.3 billion users:
https://news.microsoft.com/bythenumb...windowsdevices
Billions of people worldwide don't use a Windows PC as their main PC - their primary computing device is their smartphone/tablet for everything.Even amongst most non-techy computer users I know,many spend far more on a new smartphone,and use it for 90% of their daily computing needs. The PCs don't get as much use and gathers dust.
So for such people why would they need to rush out and get a Windows 11 device,just because you or me might?? They are more likely to rush out and get something else now.
Many of us are PC gamers.We run desktops,and build them. That alone puts us in a minority of PC users,because laptops massively outsell desktops.
Amongst computing gaming as a whole,smartphones produce more revenue than either PC or consoles.
Like Windows was the new kid on the block in the late 80s,which took on established companies,MS is now the golden oldie who thinks the same. Many of us are getting older and have rose tinted views of Windows,etc. Just like Windows was the cool and edgy OS in the late 80s/early 90s taking on the incumbents,and there were those decrying that Windows was a new upstart against existing competitors,people are doing the same with Android/iOS,etc.
The world is very different now. Intel found out the hard way,first with AMD,but now with ARM based CPUs,starting to really compete.
Most do not NEED a Windows PC now.
Edit!!
Even amongst the US Military you are seeing increasing use of customised iOS/Android devices for various things(ATAK,etc).
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 28-07-2021 at 12:25 AM.
Am I bothered? Really? Six months after awful adoption MS be will begging us to upgrade. Otherwise will become like Android O/S adoption which is crap. Death knell of windows, maybe? My gaming PC supports it but do I really need it? Not really interested ATM. Maybe, we'll see.
The Skylake vs Kabylake is an interesting one. The main differences I can think of are all GPU focussed - PlayReady 3.0, HDCP 2.2, and especially HEVC encode/decode in hardware.
Seems odd that my laptop with a 5w fanless Kaby gets it, but a Surface Pro 4 doesn't (despite having the TPM etc).
But CPUs with no IGP are supported.Plus the Skylake enterprise/business laptops already are Windows 10 Bitlocker and Secure Boot compatible. Also a fair number of AMD systems don't support PlayReady 3 properly(drivers?),and even for proper Netflix support,etc you need at least a modern 3GB Nvidia GPU. But these support Windows 11,so its definitely not a reason IMHO,and its hardly a feature businesses need either!
Its MS being MS basically. Its the same process which happened with Vista and 8/8.1,etc. Even the process of trying to "correct" customers via blog posts,Q an A's,etc is exactly the same as what they are trying to do here. Then their fans defending them to the end on top of this(no different than Apple fans IMHO).You would think by now they have learnt something.Obviously not.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 28-07-2021 at 08:56 AM.
Perhaps but the difference is Microsoft don't care. They really don't care.... they are down this path and that's it....Most sales of Windows are to consumers AFAIK,not businesses.TPM2 and Bitlocker already existed before(just like on my Skylake business laptop) in Windows 10 Pro/Enterprise,so Windows 11 does not offer anything new to business users. Most of the changes are on the consumer side,so its a consumer orientated OS.
Plus last time I checked it took years and years for many businesses/governments to upgrade to Windows 7,and then Windows 10. Stuff needs to be tested and validated especially if its mission criticial. So I am not sure why hardware enthusiasts on forums need to keep spinning,the but,but businesses line. The same was said with Vista and 8/8.1 too and businesses and many non-techies hated them because of the excessive hardware and software requirements,and incompatbility problems.
Businesses are here to make money,and give as less of it to companies like MS,etc. So many businesses will push old hardware and software as much as possible. Let sleeping dogs lie!
There are so many instances I have seen in government,engineering,science and company use of them not upgrading to newer software because of the massive faff and cost associated with the changes. So when the old hardware goes kaput,they use new hardware to run the older software via VMs or compatability modes. So I see nowhere where increasing costs for businesses is something they want to do - not everyone is Amazon or Google who throw billions at stuff. Maybe where you work its different,but its not going to be the case for many businesses even here,let alone in many other markets. OS changes are more of a PITA.
Regarding numbers you might want to look at the bigger issue MS has. There are 3 billion Android devices:
https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/18/2...es-google-2021
There are nearly 1 billion iPhones(out of nearly 1.5 billion Apple devices):
https://9to5mac.com/2020/01/28/apple...unning-ios-13/
That is nearly 4 billion devices with iOS/Android already. Windows 10 is stuck at around 1.3 billion users:
https://news.microsoft.com/bythenumb...windowsdevices
Billions of people worldwide don't use a Windows PC as their main PC - their primary computing device is their smartphone/tablet for everything.Even amongst most non-techy computer users I know,many spend far more on a new smartphone,and use it for 90% of their daily computing needs. The PCs don't get as much use and gathers dust.
So for such people why would they need to rush out and get a Windows 11 device,just because you or me might?? They are more likely to rush out and get something else now.
Many of us are PC gamers.We run desktops,and build them. That alone puts us in a minority of PC users,because laptops massively outsell desktops.
Amongst computing gaming as a whole,smartphones produce more revenue than either PC or consoles.
Like Windows was the new kid on the block in the late 80s,which took on established companies,MS is now the golden oldie who thinks the same. Many of us are getting older and have rose tinted views of Windows,etc. Just like Windows was the cool and edgy OS in the late 80s/early 90s taking on the incumbents,and there were those decrying that Windows was a new upstart against existing competitors,people are doing the same with Android/iOS,etc.
The world is very different now. Intel found out the hard way,first with AMD,but now with ARM based CPUs,starting to really compete.
Most do not NEED a Windows PC now.
Edit!!
Even amongst the US Military you are seeing increasing use of customised iOS/Android devices for various things(ATAK,etc).
And nothing that you think or say will make any difference - if they lose sales to other devices so be it. They will still earn enough revenue from other sources to not care as well. Same as Apple don't care because they earn enough regardless of poor choices, and until people realise that then it's going to make zero difference
I'll say it again - most businesses still get a Windows PC regardless of what you are saying, they know no different. Home users aren't being catered for - if the gaming side goes MS don't care. If business owners and corporations don't want to go Win 11 then MS won't care either - they will just freeze out access to services slowly. I work for several councils, and they are phasing out other os's and concentrating on Win 10 because it makes support easier. One I work for has just ditched ALL it's Macs and Apple devices (5000+) despite only upgrading last year and they made the choice because of Apple fragmentation with Apple silicon
Oh and the local NHS trust just bought 20k HP laptops for workers working from home all with Office 365 on and various MS software packages to standardise operations. 20 thousand Office 365 licences right there along with Win 10 and Microsoft Teams
Last edited by 3dcandy; 28-07-2021 at 08:26 AM. Reason: added nhs
Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!
I'm sorry CAT-THE-FIFTH but I'm going to side with 3dcandy here. My firms took ages to go to Windows 10 (despite being mostly a software R&D company) but we'll be sticking with Windows - All our customers too even as we transition our conservative industry to the cloud. I think Microsoft know there is no value chasing consumers who replace their PC once every 5~10 years once it 'dies' - even less so those who are happy with just a phone.
I also don't think its all bad - How many systems do you see in the general population that are older than 5 years? When Windows 10 loses support most of these old systems will have gone to the great recycling system in the sky. Don't forget the majority of home users are happy with a crappy intel celeron laptop for ~£200 which are usually dead or unusable in just a few years. Its just us enthusiasts who keep systems for 10 years!
Also don't forgot Microsoft don't see Windows as a money maker now - Its Office 365/Azure that make the money.
Pleiades (28-07-2021)
I am talking exclusively about consumer sales. Some of you are pushing the business angle,which is not really that relevant to a consumer discussion. This is mostly a consumer forum.
Billions of Android/iOS devices exist and billions of people now use them as their main computing device.Apple makes more revenue than MS,and Alphabet Inc(Google) does too.
Even the US military is massively integrating Android/iOS devices everywhere. You have to appreciate MS is not in the same position it was even 10 years ago!
Again,both of you have forgotten entirely that TPM2.0 and Bitlocker,etc has existed as far back as 2016 with Enterprise systems,like the Dell Latitude laptop I have now. Windows 11 does not offer anything very new compared to Windows 10 versions already on Enterprise systems.
Most of the changes are not business orientated but consumer oriented. I was talking about consumer sales always,but others here want to spin it "about business" sales. Most of the changes are on the consumer side.
So its a consumer oriented OS,so not sure what all the business spin is about? Because it was the same spin people on forums made about Windows Vista and 8/8.1 - it was all about the businesses,etc. Yet businesses avoided both these OSes and they were failures. You can't keep using "its about the business" excuse anymore,as it means nothing. Businesses avoid Vista and 8/8.1 like the plague,and I can't believe people have such short memory on how MS was forced to keep XP and 7 support for years longer than expected. It was because of businesses not consumers.
Plus if its taken until the 2H 2021 for companies/governments to push FORWARD upgrades because of a pandemic,6 years after the OS has appeared,do you think in 3/4 years time they are suddenly going to drop everything. Not from my experience - so you are being very optimistic if you think within 3 years every company is going to transition from Windows 10 to Windows 11,if it is taken them so long just to ditch Windows 7 to get Windows 10.
How many companies have been running Windows 7,8,etc unsupported? You really should start looking around you more,and realise companies don't like these kinds of changes. An OS change can cause enough issues,especially with those using specialist software. Plus a lot of our criticial infrastructure is not running the latest and greatest stuff,because upgrading decades old software systems are not as cheap as you think.
Plus ignoring businesses,why does an average consumer NEED a Windows 11 system?? Why?? Look around you - most of us are older,so are into this hobby but most people are not excited about Windows anymore. Talk to a young person,or even an old non-techy person,they talk about their iPad or Samsung Galaxy,etc.
If anything enthusiasts are the ones who upgrade more often than non-techies in my own experience.Almost the entirety of enthusiasts I know(me included) upgrade far quicker than most people. I use an enterprise laptop as my personal laptop - how many non-techies would have a laptop with enterprise features and build?
The people who I know who keep their systems the longest,are not enthusiasts. They are normal people who only upgrade when their laptop breaks. You go and look in the secondhand shops,etc - its non-techy people mostly buying those secondhand laptops from CEX,etc when its not even cost effective.
I see more and more non techies keeping their laptops longer and longer. I see more and more ditching their desktops for laptops. Then using their tablet/phone more and more,and using the Windows PC less and less.
These very same people are far more interested in getting a new phone every 2 years,than their laptop which is only used for some word processing,etc once in a blue moon.
There are 3X the amount of Android/iOS devices out there,and the Apple M1 has shown,ARM based SOCs are perfectly fine for most consumer functions. So what happens over the next few years when,other cheaper devices get better and better ARM chips?? You can't make that assumption that in 2025,MS is going to be in a better situation.
Unless you are a hardcore PC gamer,or really need a powerful home setup - why would you need a Windows 11 PC? If cloud is becoming more important,again why do you need Windows when those cloud applications can run on multiple platforms?
All MS is doing is pushing those who have some loyalty for Windows elsewhere. So its another "too big to fail" moment from MS. Remember how many defended Intel for years,when it made decisions like this?? We look back and think how could people defend it?
The reality is most average consumers don't need a Windows 11 PC. The issue is hardware enthusiasts like us are so wedded to Windows because of gaming,use of legacy software and habit,we have become the old people of 30+ years ago,who bemoaned Windows back then when it was the upstart,just because CP/M,OS2 or something else was "better".
I am also sure that "businesses" also used those older OSes longer than consumers who have no brand loyalty and jumped onto "new fangled" Windows much quicker. I am sure there were supporters of those OSes shaking their fists at the newer ones too.
We are a minority of PC users who are invested emotionally in the Windows ecosystem and there is going to be a selection bias as we will talk to similar people,etc.Many of us like building PCs,and game alot so again that makes us biased towards Windows. Like I said we are getting older,and the world is moving past us. So if MS wants to annoy those people,then in the next 5~10 years Windows is going to decline more and more. Plus if Windows declines overtime,it also means other competitors can offer business services too.
But the fact is many people now grow up with iPads/Android tablets,smartphones,etc from a young age. These would have been Windows PCs 20~30 years ago. So that brand loyalty won't be there.So what is going to happen when more of these people start entering policy making positions in companies?? They will probably be more open than the "oldies" who want to stay with Windows. More companies such as Adobe are now pushing over their software to non-X86 CPUs and non-Windows OSes. Declines don't happen overnight,and many companies the seeds of these declines happen during their best years due to massive hubris.
Its a matter of time,not whether Windows as an OS is going to decline or not. Like Intel,MS might be doing well in finances,but its clear there is a decline in a number aspects of how the company is being run. Just the constant fiddling and breaking of a stable Windows 10 OS,is quite clear they are lacking direction and making people seek alternatives. Like Intel it has gotten too bloated internally. This is why MS is making self gratuitous posts,patting itself on the pack. Intel did the same thing for years.
If their supporters don't want to see this,then its their prerogative.
Last edited by CAT-THE-FIFTH; 28-07-2021 at 11:01 AM.
Can see this argument going on for ages.lol. Didn't appreciate the comments about early years for me , autoexec.bat , config.sys etc. My first PC was a 286 and getting into Dos sparked my interest in PC's and learnt a lot about assembling a working PC , unlike today where you can
throw one together in minutes. Yep it's easier now and I appreciate that but it's removed some of the art of it in my book , I can assemble one now without taxing my one remaining grey cell , each to their own. I agree M.S. don't give a damn , never have really , same as Apple they'll
still rake in the $'s nomatter. Slight difference is Apple make actual products ( which I blatently refuse to buy due to their business practises )whereas M.S.basically produce software , sometimes good , sometime awful.I have 2 PC's running 10 and two running 7 , I still prefer 7 , don't game and all do what I need of a PC. Yes I have a smart phone and hate the damn thing most days but only use it for calls , text and camera , squinting at that screen for anything internet with my eyesight is a pain. I didn't want Win10 initially and thanks to " Openshell" I've found it tolerable and appreciate the loading speed. Win 11 looks like a no , no for me all things considered , TPM , stuff it , another backdoor for M.S. to intrude.
I'll upgrade my hardware when I want not at their beck and call.
The system requirement wouldn't be so bad if they tried explaining why, all we've had is a load of meaningless verbiage. Keeping devices more productive, having a better experience, and better security than ever before so they can stay protected is great and all but without explaining how it's nothing but marketing/PR waffle, how or what about the system requirements are going to mean my device is more productive versus something like Ryzen 1 CPU, what about TPM (if i have no use for BitLocker) is going to protect my device, why are these system requirements going to result in better security than ever before.
I mean i get that Microsoft have turned their backs on the 'technically' minded people that helped make Windows what it is today because they want Windows to be an emotive experience like Apple but those 'technically' minded people, who i may add are often making the decisions on whether to use X software, want to know more than how lovely the experience is or that it's just going to make them more secure without any idea of how.
CAT-THE-FIFTH (28-07-2021),kompukare (28-07-2021)
Oh dear cat my friend. You are getting all riled up about nothing. You appear to just want to argue for arguing sake. Yes it's a consumer forum but you are just missing the point totally. MS isn't focused on consumers any longer and really not bothered about many on this forum, and I include myself in that. I have loads of OS's and windows is on my main "work" pc because 99.9% of my business is based on either Windows itself or people who use Windows. I can count the number of people who don't use Windows in a business sense on the fingers of one hand and that will be zero soon because they are going to get a Win 11 pc next year because they work for a council that is concentrating on Win only for work. Yes there are plenty of Android and fruity devices out there, but for me they are hardly used for businesses. Your mileage might vary but that's just how it is for me... and it has changed substantially over the last year in lockdown as businesses have tried to streamline operations and many have chosen to go Windows only to reduce support staff and costs and get everybody working from home on one system which seems to be office 365 and teams with onedrive to support collaborative/cloud working
Old puter - still good enuff till I save some pennies!
Pleiades (28-07-2021)
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