Linux Gaming

[directhex]

Sorry to disagree here, but in my experience linux sucks for gaming. Yea you can do it, just but its slow, painful and lags behind the latest games(farcry/hl2??).

those latest games you state have only been made for windows. doom 3 for linux took a whole month to get released after the windows release, and as it happens half life 2 was playable on cedega within a couple of weeks with cedega (less for long-term suscribers). the "slow" comment is well explained by your choice of graphics card, ATI's linux drivers can be, shall we say, lacking in areas concerning compatability, ease & performance.

XP for all its critics is still better.

for gaming? it can play more games, true. well, it probably has a smaller choice of nethack derrivatives.

So its made by M$, so what??, I just want to play games not make a political statement about globalisation, after all Im at home in my room!!!!

nothing wrong with windows as a software product. all software i run is fully licensed, that includes my XP partition, and Windows Server 2003 fileserver. i'm too old and cynical to think anybody listens to political statements of rambling hippies or beardy Stallmans. but i don't use free software because of some political ideals, i use it because it works better for me. it does what i want, how i want it. if i have a bug, i report it and get it fixed - i don't have the case with microsoft where you need to pay to report bugs to them, and widely published bugs take weeks, months, years to be fixed.

If you are someone who actually enjoys faffing about trying make stuff run (remember DOS 5.1 extended memory anyone???) then Linux is the way to go.

is that the DOS days where you would have to quit windows to play most of your games? there were the days there were NO games for windows, especially 95 (well. solitaire and hover), because Everyone(tm) used DOS to play games. and the faffing about never stops. playing Grand Theft Auto 3 under XP, for some driver versions, requires you to install a screen-saver update. is that logic & progress, or simply a clicky version of DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM=4096

if you wanted simplicity, why the hell are you gaming on a PC rather than a console?

For me time is important (having a job and that) and the investment of my time in understanding and configuring the Linux platform is not an attractive proposition!

i'm not a jobless hippy. when not freelancing for HEXUS.net, i work full time as a Solaris and Linux systems administrator. i landed the job after only 6 months of installing and using a linux distribution on my home PC. the skills are valid and sought after, and meddling with linux can help job prospects. don't knock it.

Sorry dont buy it, I have had XP installed for nearly a year now and I can count the crashes on one hand and they were probably overclocking issues. If your mates cant run XP without crashing it I dont think they are gonna be better off with Linux!!

agreed with a "but". NT5 is pretty damn stable these days, on its own. of course, you need to reboot every time there's a patch to remove a swastika from your fonts and not just when the kernel gets updated. and if any of your drivers are less than 100% stable, then it'll go up & down like an amusing sexual euphamism (network/modem drivers are worst for this). then there's the software making things go funny until they need a reboot. or the spyware or viruses the average user installs.

At the risk of starting a war here, XP is still overall a better solution than Linux!!! (for me).

you're free to make your own decisions, if you prefer XP then fine. personally every time i use it it drives me batty - i can't stand the windows-style clipboard, or bloody Explorer as a shell. and updating & installing software in windows is an annoyance & a pain.

It would be nice to see from Hexus the stats on page views, to see how many of the ppl championing Linux are actually writing their post from XP!!

my web hosting is down. take it on good authority that every screenshot in the article was of my desktop machine. it DOEs have XP on it though. a partition table, if you'll take that as meaning anything:

   Device Boot      Start         End      Blocks   Id  System
/dev/hda1   *           1        1958    15727603+   7  HPFS/NTFS
/dev/hda2            1959        9733    62452687+   f  W95 Ext'd (LBA)
/dev/hda5            1959        1970       96358+  83  Linux
/dev/hda6            1971        2031      489951   82  Linux swap
/dev/hda7            2032        9733    61866283+  83  Linux

XP rocks

rock a bye baby, on the tree top, yaddah yaddah yaddah. it ends with death.

i've no problem with debate, comments like this are welcome, but don't expect them to go without a fight.

[tom deloford]

Ok, I thought I'd get a response but wo...

Anyway a couple of things, firstly I like your post, well laid out, informative and interesting (that’s not meant to be patronizing btw), as you indicate at the end of your post, the debate is an interesting and serious issue facing the PC community and it should be able to be discussed sensibly and without !

However, I must raise issue on a couple of points you make..

the "slow" comment is well explained by your choice of graphics card, ATI's linux drivers can be..

Since there are only two gfx card choices for serious game players (NVIDIA/ATI) what you're effectively saying here is "you can only play linux games effectively with nvidia card or in effect you MUST buy NVIDIA" ,excuse me but only having 2 options is bad enough...

it can play more games, true. well, it probably has a smaller choice of nethack derrivatives...

Thats just silly, most good nethack derivatives have windows binaries/sources too.

i use it because it works better for me. it does what i want, how i want it. if i have a bug, i report it and get it fixed - i don't have the case with microsoft where you need to pay to report bugs to them, and widely published bugs take weeks, months, years to be fixed.

Firstly, as we have agreed it doesn't do gaming as well as a PC or probably even a MAC, and its not that easy to get bugs fixed in linux at all especially not the kernel, and what’s this about paying to report bugs in windows, never heard of that one you must have some cracked version, you've probably been paying some sweaty hacker in ****** (replace with some eastern European country renowned for hacking) to report bugs. Oops.

Anyway, it depends on what software you use, there are tons of free/shareware software for windows, Open Office anyone? I write a free (soon to be os) media player called Easimp3, I get lots of bug reports (not too many ) and suggestions from enthusiastic users who report bugs back to me and I don’t charge them a thing! So the OS is closed source, big deal it might even be the best way to develop an OS?? But even if its not it doesn’t mean your software has to be cs, and in fact it doesn’t mean your shell has to be either, try Litestep, Object Desktop... etc. Its just that actually explorer is actually really rather good, cmon be honest you know it is.

i landed the job after only 6 months of installing and using a linux distribution on my home PC. the skills are valid and sought after, and meddling with linux can help job prospects. don't knock it.

I never ever ever "knocked it" or said that it wasn't a valid platform, ofcourse solaris is used widely, especially for running oracle db etc and you can get paid well for these services. Granted but so what, what has that got to do with my needs or even the average users needs. Also personally Id say 6 months of meddling with Linux is not the best career move, there are much better ways to spend 6 months if you are trying to get qualified and or better paid.

is that the DOS days where you would have to quit windows to play most of your games? there were the days there were NO games for windows, especially 95 (well. solitaire and hover), because Everyone(tm) used DOS to play games. and the faffing about never stops. playing Grand Theft Auto 3 under XP, for some driver versions, requires you to install a screen-saver update. is that logic & progress, or simply a clicky version of DEVICEHIGH=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE RAM=4096

if you wanted simplicity, why the hell are you gaming on a PC rather than a console?

The first point is moot: you had to quit Windows to run games because they were written for DOS? Erm, ok that’s not really anyones fault. Anyhow the point was, some ppl loved doing that, they loved writing custom autoexec to load different games and those ppl are now running Linux (even if its only on their second/third partition ).

Secondly, the faffing has most definitely decreased, in fact I can run every game at max settings and its perfectly playable, I would dare to say that I am a faffless gamer and certainly a lot less faffing than a linux gamer.

Thirdly I never had that problem with GTA3, but isn't that poor coding on behalf of rstar. If thats your biggest complaint of PC gaming then...

Fourthly, the reason I game on PC is because that’s where the edge of graphics/gaming technology is, and I have setup and run a gaming internet cafe and seen and experienced the incredible fun of LAN/WAN gaming can bring, this experience until recently has not been part of console gaming, but
I do have an XBOX and PS2 and both are connected to my PC Tv tuner card, btw I highly recommend Blackgold Freeview TV Tuner card, oh sorry no linux drivers yet, keep hoping though they might get written but someone with no liability at all, one day... maybe, if it rains a lot.... no... ok its not gonna happen.

NT5 (XP) is pretty damn stable these days, on its own. of course, you need to reboot every time there's a patch to remove a swastika from your fonts and not just when the kernel gets updated. and if any of your drivers are less than 100% stable, then it'll go up & down like an amusing sexual euphamism (network/modem drivers are worst for this). then there's the software making things go funny until they need a reboot. or the spyware or viruses the average user installs.

Firstly, no you don't need to reboot everytime you update. Sorry we must be using a different os, I have never had "it go up & down like an amusing sexual.." what..?!?, you must have some really odd hardware. I haven’t had a hardware conflict since win95 irq/PCI problems.

i can't stand the windows-style clipboard, or bloody Explorer as a shell. and updating & installing software in windows is an annoyance & a pain.

Firstly whats wrong with clipboard? Sorry I honestly don’t understand this comment.
Secondly as already mentioned explorer can be replaced by LiteStep or Object Desktop.. etc. (Try Google "shell replacements") Alternative shells are great for a while but then you realise how good explorer really is!! (And also why its on ur primary partition!!)

Lastly (I promise) I think the Windows Installer is one of XPs best features, its very efficient easy to use (unlike any Linux installation I have ever done), also Restore is fantastic and updates are fully automated!


I therefore reaffirm my 2 original comments:

1) XP is still overall a better solution than Linux!!!
2) XP rocks

Hehe Off to play HL2!!

[directhex]

Ok, I thought I'd get a response but wo...

Anyway a couple of things, firstly I like your post, well laid out, informative and interesting (that’s not meant to be patronizing btw), as you indicate at the end of your post, the debate is an interesting and serious issue facing the PC community and it should be able to be discussed sensibly and without !

However, I must raise issue on a couple of points you make..



Since there are only two gfx card choices for serious game players (NVIDIA/ATI) what you're effectively saying here is "you can only play linux games effectively with nvidia card or in effect you MUST buy NVIDIA" ,excuse me but only having 2 options is bad enough...

it's unfortunate, but it's the way it is. ati have been hiring linux driver developers recently though, so perhaps the balance will be evened soone enough.

Thats just silly, most good nethack derivatives have windows binaries/sources too.

make a flippant comment, expect a flippant reply, i suppose.

Firstly, as we have agreed it doesn't do gaming as well as a PC or probably even a MAC, and its not that easy to get bugs fixed in linux at all especially not the kernel, and what’s this about paying to report bugs in windows, never heard of that one you must have some cracked version, you've probably been paying some sweaty hacker in ****** (replace with some eastern European country renowned for hacking) to report bugs. Oops.

bug reporting is open only to MSDN suscribers (which costs a lot of money), or to a lesser extent beta testers (i'm a certified windows cp preinstallation expert, and was in the closed early stages of the service pack 2 beta)

Anyway, it depends on what software you use, there are tons of free/shareware software for windows, Open Office anyone?

i think openoffice more backs up my arguments than yours. it's a fully open source app, under the terms of the GNU GPL. prior to switching full-time to linux, i was running an open-source email client, irc client, web browser, office suite - it occured to me that there was a trend.

I write a free (soon to be os) media player called Easimp3, I get lots of bug reports (not too many ) and suggestions from enthusiastic users who report bugs back to me and I don’t charge them a thing! So the OS is closed source, big deal it might even be the best way to develop an OS??

best way? one way, maybe - skyos is a good example of a one-man closed-source os, beos as a larger-scale closed os. however, when i took my computing degree, they were keen to emphasis eht importance of peer code review - if your code is so dirty that it needs to be kept a secret, then perhaps you shouldn't be inflicting it on other people in any shape or form, before the crackers run in and break everything

But even if its not it doesn’t mean your software has to be cs, and in fact it doesn’t mean your shell has to be either, try Litestep, Object Desktop... etc. Its just that actually explorer is actually really rather good, cmon be honest you know it is.

i've tried close to every windows shell replacement around, none of them has the clean lightweight feel of Xfce 4

I never ever ever "knocked it" or said that it wasn't a valid platform, ofcourse solaris is used widely, especially for running oracle db etc and you can get paid well for these services. Granted but so what, what has that got to do with my needs or even the average users needs. Also personally Id say 6 months of meddling with Linux is not the best career move, there are much better ways to spend 6 months if you are trying to get qualified and or better paid.

i started during my degree. understanding is never wasted. if you gain understanding of something, then can always use that skill again in the future. learning unix system administration ideas, and linux desktop administration specifics, helped me to develop skills which are sought after in the workplace far more than another bloody graduate with a degree in computer somethingorother.

The first point is moot: you had to quit Windows to run games because they were written for DOS? Erm, ok that’s not really anyones fault.

but you seem happy to criticize linux when all the games are made for windows. DOS rocks

Anyhow the point was, some ppl loved doing that, they loved writing custom autoexec to load different games and those ppl are now running Linux (even if its only on their second/third partition ).

always seemed like extra work to me. once i managed to build a boot disk that cound run Alone In The Dark 3, i saw no reason to break it. and windows historically has needed to boot from the first partition (no longer applies with nt) - it's more a question of what the order things are listed in LILO/GRUB is

Secondly, the faffing has most definitely decreased, in fact I can run every game at max settings and its perfectly playable, I would dare to say that I am a faffless gamer and certainly a lot less faffing than a linux gamer.

i don't think i suggested that there wasn't some faffing involved. i said that it was possible, real, achieveable, and may give a pleasant surprise to doubters.

Thirdly I never had that problem with GTA3, but isn't that poor coding on behalf of rstar. If thats your biggest complaint of PC gaming then...

it's not, but it's a good anecdote.

Fourthly, the reason I game on PC is because that’s where the edge of graphics/gaming technology is, and I have setup and run a gaming internet cafe and seen and experienced the incredible fun of LAN/WAN gaming can bring, this experience until recently has not been part of console gaming, but
I do have an XBOX and PS2 and both are connected to my PC Tv tuner card, btw I highly recommend Blackgold Freeview TV Tuner card, oh sorry no linux drivers yet, keep hoping though they might get written but someone with no liability at all, one day... maybe, if it rains a lot.... no... ok its not gonna happen.

is that a really bad attempt to troll? i mean, an utterly awful attempt? freeview is fine under linux. more specifically, black gold is a rebadge of the Conexant Winfast TV2000 XP, which is very well supported. personally i use hauppauge kit as it's served me well in the past. my analog wintv-go and digital nova-t's are quite happy little cards under linux.

Firstly, no you don't need to reboot everytime you update.

windows update requires a reboot for almost any change. less so with the very latest version of windows update, but still far more often than not.

Sorry we must be using a different os, I have never had "it go up & down like an amusing sexual.." what..?!?, you must have some really odd hardware.

i've had frequent stability issues concerning PCi winmodems. and my sound card driver on my old windows-only sound card was dodgy too.

I haven’t had a hardware conflict since win95 irq/PCI problems.

who's talking about hardware conflicts? i wasn't

Firstly whats wrong with clipboard? Sorry I honestly don’t understand this comment.

habit. the unix clipboard system works on a copy-highlighted and paste system, i.e. what you have currently highlighted is pasted at the cursor position with middle click. i've grown used to and fond of the behaviour, i find the windows clipboard slow and clunky by comparison.

Secondly as already mentioned explorer can be replaced by LiteStep or Object Desktop.. etc. (Try Google "shell replacements") Alternative shells are great for a while but then you realise how good explorer really is!! (And also why its on ur primary partition!!)

no, explorer really isn't. explorer was the last straw for me. explorer would be hard to be much worse than it is. say, for the sake of argument, you have a folder containing some videos you're encoding, part-processed. open a folder and click ona file, explorer says 'aha! a video file! i must thumbnail this.' it summons windows media player in a child process. media players says 'aha! i must use a codec', and summons the codec in a child process. the codec fails to render the incomplete file at all. WMP process crashes. explorer throws up a handy "we suck. click here to tell microsoft" window. click yes or no, and explorer restarts. drag the window to the corner of the screen and ignore, you can get days more use from explorer. is that really so good as to warrant two exclamation marks, or infuriating enough if it happens regularly to make you dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda1

Lastly (I promise) I think the Windows Installer is one of XPs best features, its very efficient easy to use (unlike any Linux installation I have ever done), also Restore is fantastic and updates are fully automated!

the windows installer itself is half text based. there isn't a single 'mainstream' linux distribution which sticks you in a text-based system to partition your system, they have friendly wizards.

my main complaint is towards the haphazard way software is managed by the windows os. you install an app, and the uninstaller simply doesn't work, or throws an error and refuses to continue. or in the very recent case of my own father, who ran the acroread 7 installer to update his 5.1, found both were installed, uninstalled 5.1, and ended up having to reinstall 7 to get it to work again. his fault? well, some windows software updates older versions. some doesn't. some doesn't care. see what i mean about haphazard? at least here in linux land, if i install a package, the new version of that package is an update and works, end of story.

I therefore reaffirm my 2 original comments:

1) XP is still overall a better solution than Linux!!!

you're generalising again. a better solution for what?

2) XP rocks

hard, grey, and breaks if dropped from a great height?

Hehe Off to play HL2!!

this HL2 right here?

[tom deloford]

Oh god, Im too tired. You make some good points and some not so good points but every single one of them requires a stupidly long (interesting though) discussion, i.e MSDN and how bugs are reported, I really have to go to bed but Ill make a brief list though:

MSDN - M$ is a business, it makes money like Ford, Dell, Other Capitlist Company etc. Capitlism is good in my opinion (NO Lets not get onto politics ). Chargin for MSDN subscription is not wrong (I bet your college paid for yours, they paid for mine, we get it back in pay eventually etc....) its also happens to be a good way of sifting the wheat from the chaff when deciding which bugs are like I didnt like the copy and paste function and which ones are actually serious

Open Office doesnt back up your point. Actually what is your point?

Code review. Haha, this is a major part of any software production and is does not give rise to your logic-> closed source = dirty code , of course code review happens at M$, infact they have an extermely high tester/coder ratio, further more free, opensource OS/Software are also more vulnerable to code being written that cannot be traced back to anyone. All the guys I know who went to work for MS in dublin were f*ing smart, probably better than you and me * 10 put together, they are not some sort of lame group of suits designing new logos all day, they are actually bloody good programmers, maybe better than the last guy to change line 412402 in Redhat Kernel.

About hackers breaking everything, well if the roles were reversed tomorrow and linux was the main OS, are you so sure Linux would stand up to them either, dont you think M$ are targetted by t*****s with nothing better to do than make them selves feel important by writing viruses and then say Oh I was doing it to show everyone how... shut it, oh Im gonna go kill someone and say the same cr*p!!!

About your story with explorer.. codecs and stuff, you can turn off thumbnailing and besides I dont really buy that story although it does sound convincing, I have done this loads of times and the thumbnail just doesnt come up.

About the Blackgold, well Ill just use your line "it's not, but it's a good anecdote"

You have had issues with PCi winmodems, stop the press, recall windows, its a bug with the OS. Come on, PCi winmodems now your clutching at straws!! Oh youve never had a hardware/driver issue with Linux, if you havent I dont buy it and if you have then this is another moot point.

Office clipboard is similar to what you describe, multiple items. I have logitech mouse, you can assign paste to middle click, its hardly a big deal, I could code it myself in an hour or two I reckon (maybe longer to design a nice Mandrake skin!)

"explorer would be hard to be much worse than it is"...

Haha, have you ever used KDE, Mandrake, MacOS 9. The answer is a very LOUD YES.


"you install an app, and the uninstaller simply doesn't work....updates..."

About updates and new versions, youre right its up to the programmer, but I bet if it was the other way around someone (not saying you) would be moaning that "oh you cant do this because M$ are so... blah blah...." do you know what I mean. There is a fine line between leaving programmers do what they want and create great software and force them to do this that and the other. Personally Im in favor of giving the programmer the freedom (being a programmer myself)


"you're generalising again. a better solution for what?"

What I said was a better solution overall, I can only state more terms for overall: in general, on the balance, for the majority, given all points of view, when everything is taken into account, after weighing up the evidence, taken as a whole, by and large...


Lastly I see your on the first level of HL2, is that because its still rendering the first frame or you had to reinstall?

Once again..

1) XP is still overall a better solution than Linux!!!
2) XP rocks

Off to bed, ok this is my last post, unless someone really gets me going..

[directhex]

Oh god, Im too tired. You make some good points and some not so good points but every single one of them requires a stupidly long (interesting though) discussion, i.e MSDN and how bugs are reported, I really have to go to bed but Ill make a brief list though:

MSDN - M$ is a business, it makes money like Ford, Dell, Other Capitlist Company etc. Capitlism is good in my opinion (NO Lets not get onto politics ). Chargin for MSDN subscription is not wrong (I bet your college paid for yours, they paid for mine, we get it back in pay eventually etc....) its also happens to be a good way of sifting the wheat from the chaff when deciding which bugs are like I didnt like the copy and paste function and which ones are actually serious

nothing wrong with business. investors who bought early shares in Red Hat or VA Research did rather well out of it.

sifting the wheat from the chaff? based on how people spend their income? i read lengthy discussions on the microsoft beta tester newsgroups when sp2 was under development ridiculing suggestions of tabbed browsing as a feature, since windows had the far superior taskbar grouping. those weren't serious suggestions? placing an arbitrary locked door in front of ideas isn't neccessarily best for all concerned

Open Office doesnt back up your point. Actually what is your point?

a general rebuttal to your 'open source is bad'. if you reject open-source development, and belittle dull tasks such as minor code alterations, why use a high profile GPL project as your example of windows freeware?

Code review. Haha, this is a major part of any software production and is does not give rise to your logic-> closed source = dirty code , of course code review happens at M$, infact they have an extermely high tester/coder ratio, further more free, opensource OS/Software are also more vulnerable to code being written that cannot be traced back to anyone. All the guys I know who went to work for MS in dublin were f*ing smart, probably better than you and me * 10 put together, they are not some sort of lame group of suits designing new logos all day, they are actually bloody good programmers, maybe better than the last guy to change line 412402 in Redhat Kernel.

being 'above' going back & tweaking/cleaning would go a long way towards explaining the hulking mess of windows

About hackers breaking everything, well if the roles were reversed tomorrow and linux was the main OS, are you so sure Linux would stand up to them either, dont you think M$ are targetted by t*****s with nothing better to do than make them selves feel important by writing viruses and then say Oh I was doing it to show everyone how... shut it, oh Im gonna go kill someone and say the same cr*p!!!

far more web servers run Apache and MySQL than IIS and MSSQL. why do all web server viruses target the unpopular microsoft apps?

About your story with explorer.. codecs and stuff, you can turn off thumbnailing and besides I dont really buy that story although it does sound convincing, I have done this loads of times and the thumbnail just doesnt come up.

if you're lucky. depends on the codec. the question really is "should it?"

About the Blackgold, well Ill just use your line "it's not, but it's a good anecdote"

my anecdote is accurate (try reading readme.txt from the GTA3 install CD). your is flat out misinformation which relied heavily on a "h4w h4w h4w l1nux 51 t3h sux0r" attitude. you were called on it.

You have had issues with PCi winmodems, stop the press, recall windows, its a bug with the OS. Come on, PCi winmodems now your clutching at straws!! Oh youve never had a hardware/driver issue with Linux, if you havent I dont buy it and if you have then this is another moot point.

if there's a driver issue under linux, i can expect it to be fixed in the next kernel release, or usually immediately by way of a kernel patch. if i'm relying on small bored companies, they rarely update their driver once regardless of bugs. comms devices are a good example since there are so many vendors supplying silicon.

Office clipboard is similar to what you describe, multiple items. I have logitech mouse, you can assign paste to middle click, its hardly a big deal, I could code it myself in an hour or two I reckon (maybe longer to design a nice Mandrake skin!)

well i would have asked microsoft to add it to their existing unix-style mouse option (X-Mouse), but somebody decided that i was chaff, and who am i to argue.

it's a conscious versus unconcious thing. if i see something interesting, i highlight it, i click to paste. it's an irritation for me to highlight, go to paste, realise it's not like that, go back, copy, back, paste. windows doesn't accommodate my way of working. i can either change to suit what microsoft says i should be, or be annoyed. some might say if it's not working for you then fix it, but this is closed source.

"explorer would be hard to be much worse than it is"...

Haha, have you ever used KDE, Mandrake, MacOS 9. The answer is a very LOUD YES.

one of those is a linux distribution, one is a desktop environment, one is a dead os . i'm not sure how they compare to a shell.

"you install an app, and the uninstaller simply doesn't work....updates..."

About updates and new versions, youre right its up to the programmer, but I bet if it was the other way around someone (not saying you) would be moaning that "oh you cant do this because M$ are so... blah blah...." do you know what I mean. There is a fine line between leaving programmers do what they want and create great software and force them to do this that and the other. Personally Im in favor of giving the programmer the freedom (being a programmer myself)

seems like a cop-out answer to me. one greatly enjoyed by spyware companies with 'accidentally' broken unijnstallers. rigid, enforced software packaging ensure things are where they should be and not where they shouldn't, without impacting on the ability of programers to do what they want.

"you're generalising again. a better solution for what?"

What I said was a better solution overall, I can only state more terms for overall: in general, on the balance, for the majority, given all points of view, when everything is taken into account, after weighing up the evidence, taken as a whole, by and large...

but certainly not in all cases. i really don't see much networking infrastructure kit (routers et al) running ME, or supercomputers running XP. better overall for you? sounds like it, but perhaps that's more idealogical than anything else. try reading "free as in freedom" by sam williams. you can download it.

Lastly I see your on the first level of HL2, is that because its still rendering the first frame or you had to reinstall?

mostly because i finished it on my girlfriend's pc not mine, and am too lazy to play through 3/4 of the game just to take a screenshot

Once again..

1) XP is still overall a better solution than Linux!!!

is that like the nazi final solution, or a dissolved substance in water solution?

2) XP rocks

occasionally. unless it's sucking, and when it sucks it REALLY sucks.

Off to bed, ok this is my last post, unless someone really gets me going..

sleep is valuable. and free, i might add.

[tom deloford]

Ok, touché, Ill leave it at that I think we both made valid points!

However, I’d like to clear up two inaccuracies; firstly I never said open source is bad, I just don't think it is ideologically superior to closed source, like you seem to.

Also your comment "better for you, perhaps that's more ideological than anything else" is just unfair, I am absolutely against religious devotion to software, hardware actually anything material, in fact I would guess that this religious or ideological attitude is held more widely amongst "Linux heads" or people who believe every word Sam Williams says.

Lastly, I think we inevitably have gotten off the original point, somewhat, I of course freely admit there are bugs in Windows, so you stating this bug and that bug is not really relevant, I’m sure I could find ppl who have dozens of similar or worse issues with Linux installations. A quick search reveals:

http://linuxreviews.org/news/2004/06/11_kernel_crash/


The point is for the general user or gamer XP is still the superior choice for reasons that are perfectly valid such as they are so used to the excellent XP/Win UI (and don't want to reinvest time learning new UI tricks/jargon) or that it is guaranteed to work with their new Cannon Ixus/latest DX9.0C game or even that they simply don’t like having to download/compile (compile, most ppl don’t know what that even means!!) a new kernel every few weeks to fix bugs and add features that usually replicate/steal features from Win/Mac and rarely improve upon!

What’s more this is a view point shared by three of the four Linux/Oracle dba's that I’ve asked here at work!

Anyhow, good debate directhex, Ive learned some things and I'll end it with your own Perl (sorry) of wisdom: "NT5 (XP) is pretty damn stable these days...".

Good luck.

[directhex]

Ok, touché, Ill leave it at that I think we both made valid points!

However, I’d like to clear up two inaccuracies; firstly I never said open source is bad, I just don't think it is ideologically superior to closed source, like you seem to.

Also your comment "better for you, perhaps that's more ideological than anything else" is just unfair, I am absolutely against religious devotion to software, hardware actually anything material, in fact I would guess that this religious or ideological attitude is held more widely amongst "Linux heads" or people who believe every word Sam Williams says.

you've got no idealogical bias, you have no preference, but closed source is the best way to develop? i sense some confusion in your replies, try presenting a united front.

Lastly, I think we inevitably have gotten off the original point, somewhat, I of course freely admit there are bugs in Windows, so you stating this bug and that bug is not really relevant, I’m sure I could find ppl who have dozens of similar or worse issues with Linux installations. A quick search reveals:

http://linuxreviews.org/news/2004/06/11_kernel_crash/

i tried and failed to find a googlefight.com war where 'windows crash' or 'windows problem' could return fewer results than the equivalent linux term.

The point is for the general user or gamer XP is still the superior choice for reasons that are perfectly valid such as they are so used to the excellent XP/Win UI (and don't want to reinvest time learning new UI tricks/jargon) or that it is guaranteed to work with their new Cannon Ixus/latest DX9.0C game or even that they simply don’t like having to download/compile (compile, most ppl don’t know what that even means!!) a new kernel every few weeks to fix bugs and add features that usually replicate/steal features from Win/Mac and rarely improve upon!

you're comparing apples & oranges. say user Bob installs Fedora Core 3. it works with his hardware, he can keep it up to date.

comparing the kernel and windows is inappropriate. compare the linux kernel to ntoskrnl.exe if you want to make that comparison.

What’s more this is a view point shared by three of the four Linux/Oracle dba's that I’ve asked here at work!

and my co-workers laughed at you. does their viewpoints have any bearing on this discussion?

Anyhow, good debate directhex, Ive learned some things and I'll end it with your own Perl (sorry) of wisdom: "NT5 (XP) is pretty damn stable these days...".

Good luck.

out of context quotes? deary me. a bit like calling a flat-out lie a "good anecdote". on the other hand, mine is grounded in reality

Windows XP + nVIDIA based cards (possibly other brands):
We have found a possible problem with Windows XP that manifests itself as graphical problems both in the game menu and also during game play.
We have traced this problem to be a Windows XP problem.
Technically this problem is solved by the use of a newer version of d3d8.dll than is shipped on CD with Windows XP. (The version on the Windows XP CD that has problems is 5.1.26000.0, versions tested without error include 5.1.2600.15 and 5.1.2600.29)
Currently the only way we know to update this dll file is to install the Windows XP Patch: The Computer Cannot Enter Standby or Hibernate If a Direct3D-Based Screen Saver Is Running (Q306676) downloadable from the following Web Site: http://download.microsoft.com/downlo...P1_x86_ENU.exe.
This update may in the future be available as part of an official Windows XP Service Pack, a Windows XP Compatibility Update, or possibly a DirectX 8.1 update.

[directhex]

DARWINIA!!

Download the demo or I'll kill a little child.

linux demo: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/downloads/demo_linux.html
linux game: http://www.darwinia.co.uk/support/linux.html
(requires full product CD)

[tom deloford]

It was a good debate but now you are just showing yourself up.

you've got no idealogical bias, you have no preference, but closed source is the best way to develop? i sense some confusion in your replies, try presenting a united front.

I am not confused in the slightest, I have repeatidly said that closed source is not "the best way to develop" (Try actually reading my posts rather than simply firing up your very boring "Linux is better than Windows" rant) here's a quote if you missed it

However, I’d like to clear up two inaccuracies; firstly I never said open source is bad, I just don't think it is ideologically superior to closed source, like you seem to.

i tried and failed to find a googlefight.com war where 'windows crash' or 'windows problem' could return fewer results than the equivalent linux term.

Come on, is this the best argument you can come up with?? Im not even gonna bother shooting this one down.

and my co-workers laughed at you. does their viewpoints have any bearing on this discussion?

Perhaps, depends on who they are and the context.. To furher my intial story: It was quite amusing actually, I was talking to our oracle and linux admins and I told them you recommended Xfce 4 and there was combined laughter and "oh, hes one of them, just ignore him they are all a bit...." Ill let you fill in the rest.

out of context quotes? deary me. a bit like calling a flat-out lie a "good anecdote". on the other hand, mine is grounded in reality

Erm what are you talking about, hardware compatibilty is a major issue for the linux platform and so my "anacedote" (the term you coined) perhaps should be reclassified as a parable or analogy, the fact is compatibility and "up-to-date drivers" is an issue. You quote an issue with DirectX and claim that be a good anacdote about how bad Windows is... oh deary me...

Fact is mate Xp rocks Woohoo (Steve Balmer style...)

[directhex]

It was a good debate but now you are just showing yourself up.


I am not confused in the slightest, I have repeatidly said that closed source is not "the best way to develop"

So the OS is closed source, big deal it might even be the best way to develop an OS??

you seem to be an expert in telling people to read your posts. try it yourself some time.

(Try actually reading my posts rather than simply firing up your very boring "Linux is better than Windows" rant) here's a quote if you missed it
Come on, is this the best argument you can come up with?? Im not even gonna bother shooting this one down.

my mistake for dignifying your rather lame little 'look! a linux problem i found on google' link. i apologise.

Perhaps, depends on who they are and the context.. To furher my intial story: It was quite amusing actually, I was talking to our oracle and linux admins and I told them you recommended Xfce 4 and there was combined laughter and "oh, hes one of them, just ignore him they are all a bit...." Ill let you fill in the rest.

window manager based opinionism from people who deal with ORACLE? you have no idea how much money has been pissed away by the UK education sector into believing that it has anything to offer. (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/09...y_cans_oracle/ - not unique, several unis are dropping the system or paying silly money for oracle developers to try & save them)

Erm what are you talking about, hardware compatibilty is a major issue for the linux platform and so my "anacedote" (the term you coined) perhaps should be reclassified as a parable or analogy, the fact is compatibility and "up-to-date drivers" is an issue. You quote an issue with DirectX and claim that be a good anacdote about how bad Windows is... oh deary me...

you jumped onto the bandwaggon, not me. you started on a 'ha ha, point and laugh at the linux user, my snazzy $foo_hardware works in windows but not your os'. where, in fact, it has been supported quite well for quite some time.

an·ec·dote
1. A short account of an interesting or humorous incident.

that relies on truth, not flat out lies and FUD. if you want to present your side of a debate, use truth, not lies. it may work in your favour.

Fact is mate Xp rocks Woohoo (Steve Balmer style...)

so you run about like a monkey dripping sweat on people? (http://www.ntk.net/media/developers.mpg)

[directhex]

enough.

i'm not being drawn on this any further.

wrote an article on the current status of playing games on an operating system growing greatly in popularity, and certainly in interest for the vast majority of users who frequent the site.

this article did not, at any point, suggest that all windows games would work, nor that all games in general would work. but it did suggest that gaming with linux is here, possible, real, and may present some pleasant surprises to those who try it (such as the reference to loading times in ut2004), using the real-world scenario of attendance at a windows-centric LAN with a Linux-only PC.

how this degenerated into a discussion over your preconceptions, rhetoric, FUD and lack of knowledge, I do not know, but it is _WAY_ off topic for the scope of the parent article. if you want to discuss how crappy and useless open source & Linux are, then feel free to do so in the OS forum, at http://forums.hexus.net/forumdisplay.php?f=10 - if you want to keep on the topic of the article in question, and have any specific points from said article to discuss or contest, then keep it here.

[megah0]

Getting lost in Acton, with two suitcases full of expensive kit, in the dark, isn't fun. Especially when you've been carrying the heavy kit about on the train and tube for an hour and a half. However, that is how I, with my expert navigational skills, found myself at 10 PM on Friday night, headed for the Intel Bloodline LAN somewhere in the local area. I teamed up with HEXUS.net forum regular mgh0 who had just arrived at a nearby tube stop, and with our unerring combined sense of direction, we made it to Black Island Studios, just off the A40

Must admit, getting lost in Acton is not a fun experience, we eventually found our way by following the smell of pizza, frying components and unwashed geeks. To give them credit most people there were fairly impressed, in a faintly bored "look at the PC with a freezer on it" way.

BTW great article Hex.

We need a HTPC one next if you please

[tom deloford]

closed source might even be the best way to develop an OS

The key word is might, and notice the OS part, anyway what I was trying to say was it open source is not necessarily the best way to "develop". Once again you have read in what you wanted to hear and then jumped on it.

this article did not, at any point, suggest that all windows games would work

Nor did I ever suggest you did, I mearly mentioned that I had not had a good experience.

Look I don't know why you have got your self so worked up it seems a bit ott, but back on the subject I hope Linux gaming does get better and give everyone at least another choice when chosing an OS. Its a shame you had to get so offensive but I suppose it's close to your heart and I apologise if I got to you, but I don't think I was spouting rhetoric and lies. Anyhow good luck for the future and I hope to enjoy reading your future articles


Ps (http://www.ntk.net/media/developers.mpg) Yea this is what I meant, its an absolute classic!

[Matt1eD]

I am adding this post so I it is in my subscriptions - it's really interisting. I'd be happy with linux so long as I had a windows computer aswell. And wolfenstein is available on linux so I'm happy!

[geezerone]

Very nice article.

Having pretty much convinced me to give Linux a try can you reccomend a distribution for me as I have no idea what each ones merits are. I (also) run an AMD 64 3500+ sytem with 1Gb ram and a 6800 GT which I use to play CS:S and WoW. I'm perfectly willing to dowbload Cedega if it's necessary.

I use a dual-boot XP and Ubuntu distro (based on Debian) which is considered by many to be the best for Desktop performance. Fedora 5 is meant to be very good for server use.

You can try a live CD version here

[directhex]

holy thread revival, batman!

and you might want to link Dapper, since it releases in 3 days