RAM upgrade (and MB, CPU, etc)

[tfboy]

Right,

I did post a little while ago about upgrading the graphics, and I've realised the more important need is upgrading my RAM.

My current system is an MSI P35 Platinum board with a Q6600 mildly overclocked to 3GHz. It's working fine - I added a C300 SSD a little while ago and general usage of W7 HP has been great

However, I'm working on some very large photo stitches (half a gigapixel) and all those layers and 16bit TIFFs mean the installed 6GB just isn't enough.

Also, I feel an upgrade to 8GB still wouldn't be enough and as that's the limit of what the P35 supports, I'm down the new motherboard route.

Then, I realise that I'll probably have to ditch my ram as it's DDR2 and all the new stuff runs DDR3.

If I get a new motherboard and RAM, I guess it'll be a new chipset so I might as well change the CPU. I suppose a 2500k unlocked makes sense to OC a bit.

Graphics (currently an ATI FireGL 7700) is great for quality but not exactly superfast so could pop in a new GPU for the odd gaming, but it's a lower prioirity.

So, based on the above and the need to have more than 8GB, what would you suggest? I can spend some money on new motherboard, CPU, RAM (and optionally graphics). Budget isn't really an issue, but I mainly want to improve PS performance and the ability to work with large files.

TIA

[Pob255]

Hold on and wait for amd bulldozer, it should be out in September, see what that's like and it could well cause intel prices to drop.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I would wait too.

[tfboy]

Thanks guys. I guess it makes sense to wait to see how Bulldozer shakes things up.

But do we haver any solid news on availability? I need to sort something out prety quickly. I can wait a month but not much more.

[Pob255]

well you can already get the AM3+ motherboards that will support it, unlike intel who constantly seem to bring out new sockets with each new cpu, amd makes them backwards compatible.
So you could put a system together now with a lower end cpu (no point getting a top end one only to replace it in a month)
biggest worry is that we just don't know what it's going to be like, in theory it should be great but you never know.

[cmndr_andi]

If you need something immediately, then the Intel Sandy Bridge i5 2500K would be a very good choice. Couple that with a nice P67 board (like this) and 16GB of RAM (since it sounds like you will use it and it's so cheap now) - two of these RAM kits would be great.

As for Bulldozer according to this, it sound like it will launch in September and will be available in large numbers in October. If you are happy to wait till then, then I would as it gives you the most choice and you can pick the best performer for your uses. However, I wouldn't buy an AM3+ board now, as that would lock you into Bulldozer and it isn't clear yet clear whether bulldozer or Sandy bridge is the best option for your uses.

Also, unlike recent Intel platforms the P67 and Z67 LGA1155 boards used by Sandy Bridge are also supported by the upcoming next-generation Ivy Bridge Family - the manufacturers just need to release a BIOS update.

[tfboy]

Thanks Andy.

Looking at that MSI board and RAM combo you linked to, any reason why only 1333 and not 1600?

I'm wondering if it's because I read somewhere that a lot of boards don't run RAM at the higher 1600+ speeds if 4 DIMMs are installed (which there would be to get to 16GB).

Worringly/annoyingly, MSI have little asterisks next to the faster speeds. Looking at the manual doesn't clarify - link given to MSI's website for the memory test reports is dead and you end up with a 404!

A bit of manual searching revealed a PDF with test results, but they only have up to 1333 speeds. So much for 1666+ speeds!

I realise it *could* be beneficial to wait for Bulldozer but if you didn't want to lose out, you'd never buy anything as something newer / better is always just around the corner. OK, with BD, it might be more of a game changer than just an incrementally better CPU, but it's just speculation right now. And by the looks of it, it wouldn't be till October that we stand a chance of getting decent availability.

I reckon I'll try to hold off and wait for BD, but if I get too much of an urge, getting a Sandy Bridge isn't exactly a bad choice

edit: looks like I've been suckered into my old school theory and marketing hype. I guess you're all too aware of the marginal benefits of superfast RAM with Sandy Bridge CPUs on x67 motherboards, but I did come across this post which links to these test results. The results might be in German, but the graphs make is self-explanatory. Certainly food for thought

[cmndr_andi]

Looking at that MSI board and RAM combo you linked to, any reason why only 1333 and not 1600?

It's just a really good price. The design of the sandy bridge memory controller is so good that going to the faster memory speeds just doesn't yield much of a performance increase (see here) and that 1333MHz 8GB kit was such a great deal.

If you are happy to spend the extra on a pair of 1600MHz 8GB kits then fair enough - this set for example are very nice.

I'm wondering if it's because I read somewhere that a lot of boards don't run RAM at the higher 1600+ speeds if 4 DIMMs are installed (which there would be to get to 16GB).

Worringly/annoyingly, MSI have little asterisks next to the faster speeds. Looking at the manual doesn't clarify - link given to MSI's website for the memory test reports is dead and you end up with a 404!

A bit of manual searching revealed a PDF with test results, but they only have up to 1333 speeds. So much for 1666+ speeds!

The point to remember is that these days motherboards are generally not the limiting factor for RAM frequency (unless they don't offer the "OC" memory speeds) since the memory controller is on the CPU not the motherboard.

With Sandy bridge CPUs the memory controller is only rated by intel to run four memory sticks in dual channel mode at 1333MHz. Hence any speeds higher than this are technically overclocking the memory controller. As a result, the motherboards that support the higher memory speeds in the BIOS have to mention speeds higher than 1333MHz as "OC" since they cannot guarantee them (since Intel themselves can't guarantee these speeds).

As a result you may not be able to run four memory sticks stably at 1600MHz without a bit of tweaking. However, buying a 1600MHz rated RAM kit and trying to hit 1600MHz with four sticks is a decent plan.

I realise it *could* be beneficial to wait for Bulldozer but if you didn't want to lose out, you'd never buy anything as something newer / better is always just around the corner. OK, with BD, it might be more of a game changer than just an incrementally better CPU, but it's just speculation right now. And by the looks of it, it wouldn't be till October that we stand a chance of getting decent availability.

I reckon I'll try to hold off and wait for BD, but if I get too much of an urge, getting a Sandy Bridge isn't exactly a bad choice

Yea, that's the dilemma. My suggestion would be to bite the bullet and go for Sandy Bridge now. Sandy bridge is blazingly fast in Photoshop, overclocks really well and it means you have your new system up and running ASAP.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

With Bulldozer being so close to launch I would hold off getting a high end Sandy Bridge based system ATM.It is the first AMD CPU to be based on an entirely new architecture since the Athlon 64 and at the very least it will mean lower prices for the Core i5 and Core i7 CPUs. If your PC is going to implode in the next week or so I could understand the urgency but otherwise stick with what you have for the time being. There are people who ended up investing in a socket 1156 based systems four to six weeks before Sandy Bridge was launched for example who wish they had waited. If you upgrade every few years it is worth the wait IMHO. I have a Q6600 based system myself and I am doing the same too and so are quite a few people I know.

[chief@xrs.net]

go for 12gb triple-channel (3 x 4)

wont have to worry about bottleneck!

[tfboy]

With Bulldozer being so close to launch I would hold off getting a high end Sandy Bridge based system ATM.It is the first AMD CPU to be based on an entirely new architecture since the Athlon 64 and at the very least it will mean lower prices for the Core i5 and Core i7 CPUs. If your PC is going to implode in the next week or so I could understand the urgency but otherwise stick with what you have for the time being. There are people who ended up investing in a socket 1156 based systems four to six weeks before Sandy Bridge was launched for example who wish they had waited. If you upgrade every few years it is worth the wait IMHO. I have a Q6600 based system myself and I am doing the same too and so are quite a few people I know.

Several of us are on Q6600 then
It's not the CPU that's bothering me. OK, more is always nice to have, but the Q6600 is doing me OK right now. The bigger limitation is the 6GB RAM.

I certainly hope BD is worth it - there will be a lot of dissapointed people if it isn't!

go for 12gb triple-channel (3 x 4)

wont have to worry about bottleneck!

But then you have to get a different chipset that's more expensive? I need to read up on the plethora of options we have nowadays. Gone are the days of the Athlon XP DLT3C chips on nForce2 motherboards!

[scaryjim]

Several of us are on Q6600 then

There's loads of people on Q6600 at the minute. Anyone who built a new gaming machine in 2007 is likely to have ended up with a Q6600 / 8800GT(X) combination, and they were such good products at the time that there's been very few worthwhile upgrades since then!

Although I have to say I use my main PC so little that I'm about to downgrade mine and sell my Q6600, as they still have a decent resale value to users wanting to upgrade from a Core 2 Duo. Amazingly long-lived chip.

As to your quandry, I'm in total agreement with everyone else: wait until Bulldozer launches. Even if it's not very good and doesn't affect Sandy Bridge prices, you've only waited a month to be sure, and if you buy SB now and then Bulldozer turns out to be fantastic, you'll be kicking yourself for the next 3 years...

[kalniel]

go for 12gb triple-channel (3 x 4)

wont have to worry about bottleneck!

That's quite strange advice.

Going triple channel would give you access to 24gb vs 16gb (using 4gb ram densities), but unless you paid extreme amounts, you'd have to made do with a slower CPU for the money, and no future upgrade path. I can't see 16gb being limiting in the near future, and going beyond it would also require an upgrade in Windows. The dual channel memory controller in Sandybridge is pretty much as fast as the triple channel in bloomfield, so no worry about bandwidth, and sandybridge boards will take future ivy bridge chips, so good upgrade potential in the future. AMD memory controllers have lagged someway behind Intel for a while, but Bulldozer is an all new design that will hopefully have taken steps to address that.

If RAM is a serious limitation, wait for the socket 2011 chips from Intel - these quad channel boards will probably be able to take a massive amount.