Network Storage Device

[richardgill]

Hi Rod

Thanks for the comprehensive reply and the earlier info. I am now almost completely clear. To answer your questions here is a brief synopsis:

I'm an architect and my office is annexed to the house but we all use Macs and at any one time there may be 2 - 4 working in the home and office. I'm trying to find solutions for both office where we use CAD software mainly but also database, Office documents, Photoshop etc. and we need to backup and, increasingly I believe, to operate from a server. For the home there are my wife's business needs - Office documents and internet access and the children's needs - schoolwork and general internet access. For the home at the most basic level we need to backup simply to ensure there is not a disaster and all course work lost. We have a remote backup facility of 10Gb on iDisk (really slow) and then simple Lacie firewire hard drive.

More specifically:

Sharing - in the office we could really use a file server rather than having to continually copy documents. NDAS or NAS just not practical for this. I guess the ideal would be a file server with backup and then any local backup as required.
The server could function as backup for the children's files. We all use iTunes but probably not organised enough to have everything on the server.

Macs - I've operated on Macs for about 15 years mainly for application reasons and probably run 10 to 15 machines in that period. They run 24 hrs a day year after year and I've never had a component failure. The only things I've ever changed are hard drives for more capacity, ram chips and wireless cards. We never get viruses (although saying all this tempts fate) and I can run everything pretty well myself with only an occasional call to Apple for advice. They are more user friendly and the performance to date has been as much as we've needed. We don't have any Intel machines but they will be the next purchase.

Server - I think this is the best way forward. It will be a 'proper' system then and this should be a generally more robust way to operate. I don’t want to pay for someone else to operate - this should be easy enough for me? What would be the advantage of a Linux solution? I could probably pick up an older Mac (we've got an old iMac spare) and I could install a larger hard drive - would this be good enough?

Backup - I'm not as disciplined as is now needed. I would like central storage (server) plus additional device for central backup and some online backup. I have the desire (and probably have a legal requirement) to have offsite backup to avoid fire and theft problems.

Business - architectural practice.

Internet speed - 8mbps ADSL The max throughput on the line is 6.5mb but we rarely achieve this. Arguing this now with Toucan/Tiscali/Pipex/BT.

NDAS/NAS - We operate a wireless network and this will continue to be fine for the rest of the family as their demands are not great. We need the speed of Ethernet in the office I think and cannot get the transfer speeds we need with wireless. Typical files may be 20mb documents and we need to read/write to the server as quickly as if we were operating on standalone machines. It is not practical to re-assign privileges to another operator if I take out my laptop (we will also in future only use laptops) so peer to peer is not how I want to continue.

I think you are correct in your final paragraph - hard drives attached to the router are no good in the long term. We need a server and backup - but a small, fast, robust, easily maintained, inexpensive one. Sound familiar?

If you prefer not to question and answer longhand just reply and I'll call you.

Thanks again for your expertise.

Regards

Richard

[peterb]

I'm sure Roddines will give you more comprensive advice, but I think you have analyzed your requirement pretty well. Personally I think you would be better staying with an Apple solution as it is something you are familiar with. Certainly a Linux fileserver would work but it means learning new skills (not a bad thing!) but you really want to concentrate on your business, not the IT - so stay with Apple - particularly if you have an Apple machine spare.

I have little knowledge of Apple systems, other than to agree with your analysis of them - they do what they say! So if that is what you are comfortable with - stay with it.

In general terms, if you are running a file server, you need to think about reliability (Raid 1 might be an option) and backup strategy - what media, how often, what to back up etc) and you might want to consider a UPS so that in the event of a power failure the machine will shut down cleanly and avoid file system corruption.

[richardgill]

I'm sure Roddines will give you more comprensive advice, but I think you have analyzed your requirement pretty well. Personally I think you would be better staying with an Apple solution as it is something you are familiar with. Certainly a Linux fileserver would work but it means learning new skills (not a bad thing!) but you really want to concentrate on your business, not the IT - so stay with Apple - particularly if you have an Apple machine spare.

I have little knowledge of Apple systems, other than to agree with your analysis of them - they do what they say! So if that is what you are comfortable with - stay with it.

In general terms, if you are running a file server, you need to think about reliability (Raid 1 might be an option) and backup strategy - what media, how often, what to back up etc) and you might want to consider a UPS so that in the event of a power failure the machine will shut down cleanly and avoid file system corruption.

Peter - Thanks for this advice. I know very little about Linux although I think there are aspects of the Mac OS that are similar or developed from. I've no wish to learn unless there is a reasonable advantage - as you say, the objective is to have a more productive life/business and less time re-inventing. If Linux is a better OS then it is worth considering, if it is simply just a free OS with no other advantages then it may not be worthwhile.

The old Apple iMac is a 500 MHz machine so much slower than our other newer machines. Will this make any discernable difference? At the minimum I would probably need to replace the hard drive for something much bigger and put in as much RAM as it will take.

Regarding reliability I have in the past used backup software that pretty much clones the drive (Carbon Copy Cloner) or currently one which provides me with a bootable copy of my main drive. I've heard that some of the large Lacie drives which are actually 2 x 250Gb drives are unreliable so wonder if it is your view that two separate drives set up as Raid 1 would be better to backup the server or if 2 drives in the same case is just as good. Generally I prefer to backup as bootable copies as this just seems safer and simpler in the event of a failure. Years ago I spent too many days reinstalling applications, running through updates etc. to want to do this again unless necessary and it seems to me the limiting factor is size of backup requirement. We are unlikely to need more than 500Gb total storage which will provide at least 2x our likely anticipated requirement of 250Gb. I will get into the habit of archiving old files onto DVD. I used tape backup a long time ago and was never comfortable with it.

I agree with your point about UPS although I have never operated this way. Generally with the laptops it is not a problem and even with desktops a power cut is rarely a problem. The Macs tolerate everything you can throw at them and rebuild directories and permissions pretty much automatically. I will certainly consider UPS but I think it is really for a bigger setup than mine.

Thanks again for your advice

[peterb]

Certainly RAID is not a substitute for proper backup, but it does increase reliability of the server - if a disk fails you can keep the server up and running while you get a replacement, and it saves having to do a restore. RAID 1 would be suitable, and disks are so cheap that it is hardly worth not doing it on a file server.

I don't think that there is any particular advantage in your using linux if you can achieve what you want with the Apple system - not being familiar with Apple, I can't definitely say, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't! . The low end Mac you describe should be entirely adequate - file serving isn't particularly demanding (with the few users you have).

A UPS is cheap and you only need it to hold up the file server for a few minutes while it shuts down - although the Apple OS will rebuild/repair itself, why run the risk?

The only other thing to consider is if you are going to force users to use the file server as their main storage device, and if you are going to provide each user with an individual private storage area as well as provide group storage areas, or just provide family members with private stores and you business with a shared store, or a mixture of the two. (You might have a private business area for finacial documents and a shared area for technical documents for example, in Linux terms they would be group shares - I suspect Mac has a similar concept) but these are business decisions as much as technical ones.

[roddines]

I'm trying to find solutions for both office where we use CAD software mainly but also database, Office documents, Photoshop etc. and we need to backup and, increasingly I believe, to operate from a server. For the home there are my wife's business needs - Office documents and internet access and the children's needs - schoolwork and general internet access. For the home at the most basic level we need to backup simply to ensure there is not a disaster and all course work lost. We have a remote backup facility of 10Gb on iDisk (really slow) and then simple Lacie firewire hard drive.

Hi Richard

As Peterb said I think you have a fairly good grasp on what you need (and basic NAS devices are probably not the answer). The real issue here is what can I/we can offer you as guidance in the areas of fulfilling the need.

I don't have a lot of experience with Mac's so I may not be the best to advise in the Apple area operating them as servers. But I have set up a Microsoft Windows Small Business Server for MAC clients before. Most places that use MAC's use both PC's and Mac's and tend to typically go for PC server solutions.

One point you made needs further clarification. You mention databases...Are they flat file based databases or do you see a need for a client server based SQL database server running on the server? Hmmmm...That may not mean much to you. Essentially a server based database server allows client software to off-load some of the database management to the server to improve response/performance, reliability and backup etc. If you are just talking flat file databases then they just use files stored on a network drive or locally if not shared (but network speed is essential here and wireless networking will typically cripple these). If your not sure let me know the product or database name/type your using? If it is a product then ask the software vendor if it can be used on/with an SQL server (ask if Microsoft SQL server is supported).

That issue aside, your file server options are:
# A custom built Linux server has the advantage of low software cost but the difficulty of being geeky and obscure and difficult to understand, very difficult to setup usually and get business oriented support for. Sure you will get free support but it wont be focused on your business need or timing.
# Apple servers are an unknown quantity for me I think they tried a while back but you don't come across them much apart from the publishing world. Apple - Server A PC server will certianly be MUCH more affordable (read MUCH better value for money the down side being a different operating system).
# A serious NAS device (but generally this would provide File Storage only and possibly printer sharing services on a hidden Linux server or Microsoft operating system).
# I personally would recommend the Microsoft Small Business Server 2003 (SBS 2003) which is affordable and comes in two flavours (both with 5 user licences included):

SBS 2003 is an integrated suite of Microsoft products (Windows Small Business Server 2003 Home) in a bundle that are designed to be easier to manage and maintain with wizards for small business users to minimise the level of understanding required to manage the services it provides. That said, it is NOT simple to use, but instead probably a lot simpler than any other conglomoration of products that can be cobbled together to do all the tasks SBS 2003 offers, that you would find in the PC and Linux worlds. Apple servers and software I can't comment on.

The basic Standard version has these main features (amongst other more rarely used features):

Print Server (share printers)
File Server (share files)
DNS (domain naming services)
DHCP (provides IP addresses automatically to clients)
Exchange Email Server (you can use with the included Outlook client or any other POP3/IMAP client)
plus client copies of Microsoft Outlook 2003 (PC email client)
Sharepoint services (intranet web site which could be useful even with MAC's)
Backup software (adequate but not brilliant)

The more expensive Premium version has these additional features:

Microsoft SQL Server 2005 Workgroup Edition (very nice SQL server software)
Internet Security and Accelaration server (complex firewall) Note: I prefer to use a router/firewall device for most of my cleints
Plus a copy of MS FrontPage 2003 (PC version for maintaining a web site or customising some Sharepoint pages)


In this scenario users can access e-mail from their Macintosh computer by using Entourage 2004 or alternatively there are different options for running the Microsoft Outlook and FrontPage (if needed) software on the MAC one is here:
CodeWeavers - CrossOver Mac
Others include the new range of virtual client software like Parallels (Virtual pc, virtual machine and multiple operating system solutions by Parallels, Inc.). I don't have specific experienece on MAC's in this area but I do use virtual client software on many PC and Server systems. And from what I have read the technology works very well on the new Intel based MAC's (supposing you have those :-) ).

Going to the trouble of using Outlook or Outlook Web Access you would all get some nice shared calendaring features as well as public mail folders. Alternatively you could just continue using externally hosted email accounts as I assume you are now. Or decide to take this on in a later phase.

Here is a Microsoft whitepaper on using the Macs with SBS 2003 (of which much would also apply to the Windows Home Server option discussed later) and may be a good place to start to understand some of the issues and benefits of using it.

Microsoft Corporation

I or some other more local consultant could build a very good server (new hardware is so cheap now) for around £1000 to £1500 (or possibly less as prices have come down) including the SBS 2003 Software (inc 5 users licenses) a Dual/Quad core processor, 2-4GB of RAM, 2 x 500GB HDD configured to mirror in RAID 1 array. If you really must the hardware could even possibly be a new Intel based MAC (I would need to investigate that but I can't see why not).

In the realms of a serious NAS device take a look here:
www.span.com - UK Data Storage specialists - - Network Storage - Network Storage - AXIS, HP, SnapServer, Sony, SSI, Tandberg, Overland, Vixel - Network Storage - AXIS, HP, SnapServer, Sony, SSI, Tandberg, Overland, Vixel, NAS, multi-disk

Similarly Microsoft has just released the new Microsoft Home Server (essentially a heavy duty NAS server device plus more) which is cheaper than the full SBS 2003 product and HP has just this week released a hardware product/solution (others will follow) at around £500 which may prove to be useful. HP states that works with MAC's (HP MediaSmart Server: FAQ) but client backup needs its own additional MAC based backup software (ie the Windows client backup software will not work on the MAC) . This would not provide all the same functionality as SBS 2003 but just file and printer services (plus some home type photo and media file sharing) for a maximum of 10 users while SBS 2003 has max of 75 users (at which point it can be migrated to their standard server software products with not much work). This may be all you need for now and if you need SBS 2003(or SBS 2008 once available) later you can then use this as a backup device for the SBS server.

Here are some links to the new Microsoft/HP product:
HP MediaSmart Server
PC World - HP Unveils Windows Home Server Systems
Windows Home Server
HP MediaSmart Server: FAQ

In addition to all this I would use a 500GB NDAS drive (as I have described earlier in this thread) to provide local backup of the server (as PeterB says RAID 1 mirroring should not be considered backup).

Regardless of server type you choose I would highly recommend switching from poorly performing low bandwidth wireless (aka WiFi) networking to Homeplug networking which is much better or if you can afford get it physically wired (which is even better). Using Homeplug would also allow you to place the NDAS backup drive in a hidden place to help protect against theft (and if you place it in a fire resistant safe, then against fire too). Here is a forum link on some stuff I wrote on Homeplug (and normal physical LAN wiring)...

http://forums.hexus.net/networking-b...-homeplug.html

You neglected to mention if the home users are PC or Mac? Do you have a mixed environment? If so SBS 2003 is the answer or maybe the new Microsoft Home Server (HP MediaSmart server).

I suspect using an old Apple Mac while affordable will not be the best way to go as having a low performing server is not nice when you have several users needing to rely on it (especially if your moving large CAD files and running file based databases). Plus think of the scenario if the old MAC where to fail because....well it is old. What impact would that have on your business? How would you recover? But a new MAC used as a peer to peer file and print server may be an option for you. Although adding RAID 1 storage (mirroring) may be difficult if not expensive both on a new or an old MAC (although probably easier on a new PCI or PCI-X based one). I can imagine buying and running a new Apple MAC or X Server could be expensive.

Both the Microsoft solutions (not to say the others can't be either) have the advantage that they can be managed remotely over the ADSL broadband line should you have any technical issues beyond your immediate capability. People like myself charging reasonable amounts in 15 min increments for remote hands-on support.

I hope this all helps. 07876025797 if you need to clarify anything. Where are you based? I am in Dorset

P.S. By the way the iDisk backup speed would benefit from an Internet connection with a greater upload capacity some ADSL packages can double and tripple the typical 448kb/s ADSL upload speed.
http://forums.hexus.net/networking-b...100-month.html

P.S.S. As PeterB says I also recommend a UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) for any server.

[peterb]

Just had a quick read throgh roddines (excellent) assessment, but I would take slight issue over the choice of MS server products for your situation. Given that yours is a small business, I can't help feeling that the MS server solution is slight overkill. A linux file server based on one of the mainstream distributions is quite easy to set up and very flexible - also offering the advvantages of remote administration. However it would require the investment of a little time and reading to get it going yourself. If you are looking at relational databases, then there are a number ofopen source databases available, the most well known being MySQL which is available with varying degrees of paid support.

I offer those options not because they are 'better' than MS solutions (whatever better means) but as an alternative. I wish I knew a little bit more about Macs so I could give a definitive opinion - but ultimately the choice is down to you!

(As an example I run a Linux based file server at home to mixed MS/linux system. It also runs mysql and Apache providing a content based web system and would also run a mail server, although running a mail server on the same machine as the other applications would be a bit risky- and this on a computer that cost about £250 to put together - including the OS (about 3 years ago). It would also act as a printer server if I so wished) However there was an investment in time in learning how to do it, and it isn't 'mission critical' although I would be quite comfortable if it was supporting a business. As a server it runs RAID 1 and has a UPS to control shutdown in the event of a power failure.

The issue here is really if you are prepared to support the system yourself (in which case all Apple or spend some time learning Linux or MS based systems) or go for paid support in which case ypou are looking at an MS solution. (It is possible to get paid support fopr Linux based systems, but it is harder to find)

[richardgill]

Thanks Rod & PeterB for all the help and advice, there is a lot to take in and consider and I'll think about this for a few days. We are all Mac users, no PCs here (it's pure prejudice and fear) and the database is simple flat file with no need for server. The server will simply handle files as we deal with email individually but may progress to email server later. Our A4 printer (HP OfficeJet Pro 7780 All-in-One) is wireless and good and the large format printer works on sharing happily but we may move this to server later. Basically simple, fast file server need is paramount and the rest can come later. In brief I think the MS SBS 2003 is not going to work for me and I think it comes down to Linux and configuring a Mac product or a Mac product, new or old, with Mac server software. I'll explore using the old iMac machine or maybe use a Mac Mini. In any event I need network storage and thought I might get on with the Akasa case and Western Digital drive Rod recommended earlier (what about Seagate or Hitachi or are Western Digital better?) , get my present network ethernet wired (except for those that are too distant) as the office Macs are gigabit ethernet this should give us fast storage, temporary file serving, etc. and then look at the server as the next stage. I think for me the issue is Apple or Linux on Apple and maybe make some time to learn Linux.

Thanks again.

[richardgill]

I had forgotten the other recommendations from Rod and subsequent comments from PeterB

[richardgill]

I just thought I'd add this - I contacted a mac specialist who had set up a small architectural practice with server, backup, ups etc. and he recommended a minimum of a G5 machine (not a mac mini) for a server (the old iMac just not worth using - same view as Rod and Peter I guess) and a budget of about £4000 -£5000 including his time @£130/hr. Not for me!

I then came across Server Video Series » Free Mac Blog which has a video series about setting up mac minis as servers and published by a guy on macminicolo Mac Mini colocation. who host a whole load of mac minis as servers (bought by individuals or by macminicolo) and shows how to set them up. Very useful I thought. Obviously I'm not going to use their hosting but the series looks like it will help with setting up.

[richardgill]

This is the direct link for the first of the mac mini server setup which just covers configuration


http://www.macminicolo.net/videos/ServerVideo1.mov

[peterb]

Thanks Rod & PeterB for all the help and advice, there is a lot to take in and consider and I'll think about this for a few days. We are all Mac users, no PCs here (it's pure prejudice and fear) and the database is simple flat file with no need for server. The server will simply handle files as we deal with email individually but may progress to email server later. Our A4 printer (HP OfficeJet Pro 7780 All-in-One) is wireless and good and the large format printer works on sharing happily but we may move this to server later. Basically simple, fast file server need is paramount and the rest can come later. In brief I think the MS SBS 2003 is not going to work for me and I think it comes down to Linux and configuring a Mac product or a Mac product, new or old, with Mac server software. I'll explore using the old iMac machine or maybe use a Mac Mini. In any event I need network storage and thought I might get on with the Akasa case and Western Digital drive Rod recommended earlier (what about Seagate or Hitachi or are Western Digital better?) , get my present network ethernet wired (except for those that are too distant) as the office Macs are gigabit ethernet this should give us fast storage, temporary file serving, etc. and then look at the server as the next stage. I think for me the issue is Apple or Linux on Apple and maybe make some time to learn Linux.

Thanks again.

Certainly the Akasa case would probably meet your requirements short term - however if it is the one recommended earlier, remeber it is an NDAS device and will need client software added to any machine that is required to access it. More details here AKASA - THERMAL SOLUTION on the Akasa web site. You can use any disk drive, but really for reliability you should use enterprise grade drives athat are designed to run 24x7 and the Western Digital Raptor series seem to be the most readily available - Raptors also have the reputation of being fast - but noisy!

I just thought I'd add this - I contacted a mac specialist who had set up a small architectural practice with server, backup, ups etc. and he recommended a minimum of a G5 machine (not a mac mini) for a server (the old iMac just not worth using - same view as Rod and Peter I guess) and a budget of about £4000 -£5000 including his time @£130/hr. Not for me!

Not sure what the going rate for Apple consultancy is, but that seems about right ball park. However he does seem to be recommending a gold plated solution. Your practice seems to be mainly you full time with associaites who come in as needed, so while storage capacity is important (I know CAD files can be huge) and lthough the files to be served are large, the actual number being served is small, so the absolute performance of the server doesn't matter so much - it isn't as if it is serving several hundred users simultaneously! However you do need to consider backup, and high capacity tape - while offereing probably the cheapest cost per byte for the storage medium is expensive to set up - most are SCSI and I don't know what support the high end Apple macs still have for SCSI (it used to excellent - but I think all Apple drives are now IDE - but I may be wrong)

I think you have have probably got some idea of the way you want to go - and perhaps enough info for an interim solution while you consider which way to go for the future.

[richardgill]

Certainly the Akasa case would probably meet your requirements short term - however if it is the one recommended earlier, remeber it is an NDAS device and will need client software added to any machine that is required to access it. More details here AKASA - THERMAL SOLUTION on the Akasa web site. You can use any disk drive, but really for reliability you should use enterprise grade drives athat are designed to run 24x7 and the Western Digital Raptor series seem to be the most readily available - Raptors also have the reputation of being fast - but noisy!

Not sure what the going rate for Apple consultancy is, but that seems about right ball park. However he does seem to be recommending a gold plated solution. Your practice seems to be mainly you full time with associaites who come in as needed, so while storage capacity is important (I know CAD files can be huge) and lthough the files to be served are large, the actual number being served is small, so the absolute performance of the server doesn't matter so much - it isn't as if it is serving several hundred users simultaneously! However you do need to consider backup, and high capacity tape - while offereing probably the cheapest cost per byte for the storage medium is expensive to set up - most are SCSI and I don't know what support the high end Apple macs still have for SCSI (it used to excellent - but I think all Apple drives are now IDE - but I may be wrong)

I think you have have probably got some idea of the way you want to go - and perhaps enough info for an interim solution while you consider which way to go for the future.

Thanks for this Peter. I'm very grateful for the continuing responses.

I've got a pretty good idea where I'm going but quality of the components is an issue. Interesting that you refer to the Western Digital Raptor enterprise grade drives. It did not occur to me that there are different grades - obvious I guess. I had though of a Mini Mac and upgrading the drive to a Hitachi - Travelstar 7K200 200GB 7200RPM SATA for speed and capacity(I've got to check this properly yet) and then a hard drive (or two) as back up plus DVD for archive files. Noisy is a problem in a small office so the Raptor would not be good. Can you give me view about other good, quiet drives. The 160GB 7200rpm Seagate Momentus 7200.2 (SATA 3G) has good reviews on BareFeats Seagate Momentus 7200prm 160GB Notebook Drive and the review of the Hitachi is better and more recent but I've no idea about the quality of these drives in relation to the Western Digital Raptor.



Thanks again.

[peterb]

Noise is relative, so although a raptor is reputed to be noisier, I can't say how noisy! There are programs for some disks (provided by the disk mfr so are drive specific) where you can trade noise against performance. Generally enterprise grade tend to be about double the price of desktop types.

I use Samsung drives (not enterprise grade) and find them to be very quiet - both 3.5" and 2.5". (And I run some of them 24x7 - so far without problem) Samsung do make enterprise grade drives, but you may have to look harder to find them. The samsung web site gives more info SAMSUNG Hard Disk Drive

You may coinsider a raid 1 array with two cheaper drives (and a rigorous back up reginme) to be entirely satisfactory. If a disk does fail, the server will stay up while one drive is changed, and if both should fail together, you have a backup. Although you may run a server 24x7, for convenience, if it does fail and bercome unavailable for a few hours, it probably isn't the end of the world provided the
data is ultimately recoverable.

Seagate drives have a good reputation (as do Toshiba notebook drives). Hitachi went through a bad patch a few years ago (when they were partnered with IBM - the deskstar was known as the deathstar) but I believe that they are better now. Maxtor is another well known brand. The mfrs websites are a good place to start.

However I think you would be quite safe with desktop class drives with RAID 1 and a regular backup regime.

(You might be interested in the Thecus NAS devices - they are listed on Scan Today only - Computer hardware and software at amazing prices, available online from Scan Computers UK today - but read the specs on the Thecus web page for full information Thecus Products )

[roddines]

Quick note guys!

Unfortunately you have to use an IDE (aka PATA=Parrallel ATA) drive with the NDAS cases at the moment. I have tried using an IDE to SATA converter in the case with a SATA drive and havent found one that works yet.

Note the RAPTOR drives are NOT SATA II @ 300mbps but SATA (I) @ 150Mbps. While these are enterprise grade they are really targeted at quick seek jobs like OS and program loading and temporary file (aka server/workstation:memory swap or desktop:video editing) storage. They are not targeted for the large file data storage market hence they are expensive for their size and do run slightly noiser and faster.

I often build servers with two of these 75 or 150Gb WD Raptors SATA (I) drives mirrored (RAID 1) as the system drive (OS plus server apps) plus 1 x 35Gb WD Raptor for temporary files (swap drive) then 3-5 x 250/400/500/750GB WD RE edition SATA II drives in a RAID 5 (N+1) configuration for data storage (all the business files).

The real enterprise RAID drives are usually larger (SATA anyway) drives with extended MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) ratings. The SCSI and SAS drives are usually faster 10K rpm (like WD Raptors) or even 15K rpm and much more expensive for the size. Note: SAS= Serial Attached SCSI drive (newest tech)

It is hard to find any of these reliable edition drives in IDE format stocked by anyone (even if they are manufactured). I personally don't use them for backup purposes (my main use of NDAS cases) as most of the day the drive sits there idle and runs hard for a few hours in the cold night then rests all day.

If your using them only for 8 hours a day in the office for file storage rather than on a server (where they would be more active during the night) then normal quality drives from reputable manufacturer hitachi/ibm, seagate/maxtor, samsung OR my personal favorite western digital are fine. In my opinion!

Google use desktop class drives for all their 100 of thousands of servers as they maximise the cost benefit and they rely on RAID 5/6 or on server fail over. They published a report about a year ago that said their data shows that these drives will usually have a higher failure rate within the first 3 to 12 months of 24x7 use BUT if they last through that initial year (and something like 98% do) then they will last at least 3 years of 24 x 7 use after which their failure rate curve starts its initally slow exponential rise. This is mainly due to the platter bearings wearing out but there are many other reasons for failure. Interestingly they also reported that the running temperature (contrary to typical logic) is pretty irrelevant to the life expectancy except that they noted very excessive heat and surprisingly over cooling are detremental to life expectancy.

google hard drive report - Google Search

I would guess from my emperical experience and studying their specifications that enterprise class drives cost about 20%-50% more but will have a much lower intial year failure rate and another 2 to 5 years on top of the 3years (at which point they are almost redundant anyway) before they start their slow but exponential failure rate.



Not so quick note afterall :-(

[roddines]

By the way I spotted this today too.. SME Server Inc. - Home That on top of VMware Fusion Overview, Run Linux on Mac - VMware on a G5 MAC may be your easiest and most reliable full server option.

By the way NDAS drivers for Linux, MAC and Windows are here: Ximeta Inc. You can regard the NetDisk and Akasa cases as same thing really. In my experience also don't be afraid to use newer drivers direct from this site (that is not a guarentee either).

Consultant for £5000 is a bit rich!
I wouldn't got for the desktop G5's as they have no extra PCI slots for a RAID card or room for more hard drives etc.

Holy mackrel you guys pay a premium for MAC's -
https://www.appleworld.co.uk/cgi-bin...AW_MACPROSTART!
Mac Pro G5 optioned up with:
a) 2.66GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon (this upgrade option is good value),
b) Memory Options: 2GB 667MHZ DDR2 ECC RAM (Minimum I would prefer 4GB);
c) Stick with 1 x System Drive Options: 250GB 7200rpm SATA 3GB/s Hard Disk;
d) buy 2 additonal 500GB/750GB hard drives for RAID elsewhere (like Scan much cheaper at about £150+VAT for 2 x 500GB SATA Raid Edition WD drives).

Holy mackrel again: Apple have released a RAID card but it is $1000 USD ~= £550 + VAT I would guess.
You better add another £900+VAT on the budget for that and another HDD + setup!
MAC pro RAID card - Google Search

So the new G5 MAC Pro cost would be:
£1555 + VAT
£ 150 + VAT for 2 addtional hard drives
£ 900 + VAT for RAID
---------------------------
£2605 + VAT TOTAL
===============

Actually considering these RAID hardware costs I would begin to consider using an iSCSI external drive box with the Linux server running vitually on the G5 and using the iSCSI storage for your business DATA storage. If you are slightly interested in this I will look into that and report seperately. iSCSI is similar in concept to NDAS but more generic and more industrial strength with many different vendors for the client side initiator (see below for a Mac one) and hardware/software for offering the iSCSI SAN (Storage Area Network) services to the network.

Also you can (could) get software for the MAC to connect to an iSCSI drive too iSCSI Initiator Software - Xtend SAN for Mac® | ATTO Technology (~£50 per MAC) This is not necessary (or even usefull) for network file sharing but just to add extra "local" storage from the iSCSI device to your existing desktop MAC's (which has the benefit of RAID and backup). It like NDAS would mean you need to have higher bandwidth local area networking to support the intense data traffic. But then £50 buys you a new larger hard drive (but without the central storage, redundacy and backup).

Hmmmm... it is so expensive with MAC's pitty you can't see the other side running a Microsoft Server on PC hardware or even straight up Linux Server on PC hardware. A PC based Server with similar specs to the above G5 (same XEON processor) would be around £1300 (plus VAT) all up hardware built cost (custom built by me with 4GB of ram, RAID card and same 3 Hard Drives incl) or even a proper fully supported product from HP or the like would not be much more (ie 3 year onsite next business day warranty)

Depending on how far you are located from Dorset I could give you a fixed price to set it all up too. My normal consulting rates are less than half that guy and I will half them again to get some current MAC experience under my belt.

[roddines]

Actually after further looking into the iSCSI I found another route that would be better (simpler and cheaper). I found a third party SATA RAID controller plus an eSATA Direct Attached (eSATA = External SATA) stroage option with no extra load on the network either.

You need a RAID 1 enabled SATA/eSATA PCI-E card for the G5 MAC Pro
http://forums.hexus.net/lifestyle-ne...ata-ports.html
External Sonnet: Tempo SATA E4P - Serial ATA PCI-Express Host Adapter Card
Internal Sonnet - Tempo SATA E4i: Serial ATA PCI-Express Host Adapter Card

Plus a hardware RAID 1 Mirrored for the extrnal enclosure with USB 2.0 & eSATA.
Computer hardware and software at amazing prices, available online from Scan Computers UK

External Drives Option
So the new G5 MAC Pro cost would be:
£1555 + VAT
£ 150 + VAT for 2 x 500GB addtional hard drives
£ 70 + VAT for RAID eSATA enclosure
£ 190 + VAT Tempo E4P External eSATA RAID 1/0 card
-------------------------
£1975 + VAT TOTAL
==============

Internal Drives Option
So the new G5 MAC Pro cost would be:
£1555 + VAT
£ 150 + VAT for 2 x 500GB addtional hard drives
£ 130 + VAT Tempo E4i Internal SATA RAID 1/0 card
-------------------------
£1835 + VAT TOTAL
==============


Plus add another IDE 750Gb drive and AKASA NDAS case for the backup drive for another £150 or so

If you went this route and just shared the mirrored drives from the MAC OS X and with no LINUX or VMWARE involved it would be fairly simple for you to setup I imagine. Possibly with some phone support when you get stuck. Probably all up £2000-£2500 cost.

The most difficult part would be re-installing the MAC OS to use the RAID drives which is not essential but a better option. i.e. To simplify setup you could just add two drives and mirror them for DATA only.

The ideal scenario would be OS on RAID 1 internal mirror and DATA on eSATA external RAID 1 enclosure. External box then makes it easy to grab in a fire/emergency and also easier to move and gain recovery access should the server hardware fail.