Watercooled gaming rig under £2000

[Robscure]

I'm building a gaming machine and want to know if anyone see's any potential *compatibility issues that I may have missed, or if you'd do anything differently, let me know.

*by compatibility I don't only mean, "it won't work", but also "it would work better if you replaced [part A] with [part B]

- Thanks.

note: I'm going with a very beautiful and expensive case, it is the top case for water-cooling, which I'm also going with. I am going with watercooling because I will be overclocking more than I'd like to rely on air for, and I'm also fond of how quiet water is over air.


::System Specs::

Mobo (£120): Asus P5Q-E, iP45, S 775, PCI-E 2.0 (x16), DDR2 1066/ 1200/800 MHz, SATA II, SATA RAID, ATX

CPU (£140): Intel Core 2 Duo, E8400, Wolfdale Core, S775, 3.0 GHz, 1333MHz, 6MB Cache, 9x Multiplier, Retail

Gfx card (£230): 896MB EVGA GTX260 PCI-E 2.0 (x16), Mem 1998MHz, GPU 576MHz, 216 Cores, 2x Dual Link DVI-I/ HDTV

Sound card (£90): Creative Soundblaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Professional

HDD 1 (£35): 250GB Samsung HD252HJ, Spinpoint F1, SATA300, 7200 rpm, 16MB Cache, 8.9 ms, NCQ

HDD 2 (£35): 250GB Samsung HD252HJ, Spinpoint F1, SATA300, 7200 rpm, 16MB Cache, 8.9 ms, NCQ

Optical Drive (£16): Optiarc (Sony/NEC) AD-7200S-0B 20xDVD±R, 8xDVD±DL, DVD+RW x8/-RW x6, DVD-RAM x12, SATA, Black, OEM

PSU (£100): 650W Be Quiet Dark Power PRO BN073 Modular PSU 87% Eff

RAM (£55): 4GB (2x2GB) Corsair TwinX XMS2, DDR2 PC2-6400 (800), 240 Pins, Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 4-4-4-12, DHX

OS (£65): Microsoft Windows Vista Home Basic SP1* 64Bit 1Pk OEM (DVD)

Sub-Total: £886 (inc. VAT)


::Case (+water cooling)::

Case (£245): Silverstone TJ07B-W Black Aluminium Full Tower Case with Window ATX/E-ATX/SSI (w/o PSU)

CPU Block (£50): Swiftech Apogee GTZ CPU Block LGA 775 - 3/8" & 1/2" Barbs Incl

Radiator (£75): TFC Xchanger Triple Radiator 360 using G1/4" Threads

Fans (£35): 3x 120mm Scythe S-FLEX SFF21F Fan 1600 RPM

Reservoir (£75): XSPC Laing DDC-Pump 12V Ultra(18w) Acrylic Reservoir with G1/4" Threads

Lighting (£3): Sharkoon 4" UV CCFL 2in1 Kit (x2 CCFL Tubes + 1 dual Inverter + adhesive Velcro strips)

Tubing (£7): Alphacool Hose PVC 11/8mm Clear 2 Meter Length

Fluid (£14): 1L Feser One Fluid - UV Acid Green for water cooling systems (Non Conductive < 10 ìS)

Barbs (£10): EK Polished Nickel Plated Brass G1/4" (BSPP) Thread to 1/2" Hose Tail

Sub-Total: £514 (inc. VAT)


:eripherals::

Display (£181): 22" LG L226WTQ , Black , Widescreen, 2 ms, DVI/VGA, 1680x1050, 3000:1

Speakers (£29): Creative Inspire Black T3100 2.1 Speaker System

Mouse (£27): Logitech G5 Laser Mouse, 2000dpi, USB 1.1/2.0, 7 Buttons, Black - Gamers Choice

Mousepad (£27): SteelSeries SteelPad 5L Multilayered Gaming Mouse Mat (E3162)

Keyboard (£54): Razer Lycosa "Unstoppable" Gaming Keyboard [RZ03-00180600-R3W1] Non-slip Rubber Backlit Keys - UK

Headset (£88): Sennheiser PC350 Gaming Headset

Sub-Total: £406 (inc. VAT)


::Grand Total::

£1806 (inc. VAT)


I'm also getting an external HDD along with Acronis for secure back-up. If I were to go with air-cooling and not overclock my rig so much, it would have a grand total of around £1300. But, as I mentioned, I will be overclocking more, and I want a cooler/quieter environment. Also, this case + cooling-system is a long-term investment, I will only be spending ~£0-£300/year in upgrades, in order to stay with the flow of things.

Suggestions awaited!

[staffsMike]

Suggestions awaited!

Air cool and buy a better monitor and speakers.

Buy a cheaper case.

I don't see that as a long term investiment tbh.

Bit blunt but i'm tired lol

[Robscure]

Air cool and buy a better monitor and speakers.

Buy a cheaper case.

I don't see that as a long term investiment tbh.

Bit blunt but i'm tired lol

LOL !

Thanks Mike.

"I'm tired lol" > I guess that's why you suggested air cooling when I stressed why I was keeping water cooling lol

Why isn't an amazing case + watercooling system a long term investment? I will be able to replace the insides with cheap, high quality, but not cutting edge, parts (such as a cheap i7 1-2 years from now that will run games like how the E8XXX do now compared to the much more expensive i7's) and then overclock them to run just as well as cutting edge for much cheaper...

[staffsMike]

But if you buy a decent air cooling case, that's just as sound an investment and probably less than half the price. Coolermaster CM-690/ Antec P182 etc..

The benefits of overclocking the E8400 over 4.0GHz (achiveable on air) are minimal anyway especially for gaming.

My problem is, you've picked lots of mid range parts. I don't see the benefit to watercooling midrange parts.

The &#163;500 you are spending on a case and water cooling could go towards.

That better monitor, (+&#163;200)
Q9550, (+&#163;100)
Better speakers (+&#163;100) (why are you spending &#163;90 on a sound card and &#163;30 on speakers?)
Faster hard drives 640GB's might be nice and not too much more.

Point is, you will get a far better PC over the long term by air cooling and there won't be any need to upgrade.. change water blocks etc..

If you have your heart set on it don't let me put you off lol.. I just can't see the point.

EDIT: sounding like a right old grouch.. sorry.

I would try not getting the sound card first, onboard is good these days.

[Robscure]

But if you buy a decent air cooling case, that's just as sound an investment and probably less than half the price. Coolermaster CM-690/ Antec P182 etc..

The benefits of overclocking the E8400 over 4.0GHz (achiveable on air) are minimal anyway especially for gaming.

My problem is, you've picked lots of mid range parts. I don't see the benefit to watercooling midrange parts.

The £500 you are spending on a case and water cooling could go towards.

That better monitor, (+£200)
Q9550, (+£100)
Better speakers (+£100) (why are you spending £90 on a sound card and £30 on speakers?)
Faster hard drives 640GB's might be nice and not too much more.

Point is, you will get a far better PC over the long term by air cooling and there won't be any need to upgrade.. change water blocks etc..

If you have your heart set on it don't let me put you off lol.. I just can't see the point.

Ahhahaha thanks Mike.

No, I don't have my heart "set", otherwise I wouldn't have made a thread asking for suggestions! (You must be tired! )

What is a better monitor? I don't want to have any bigger than 22", I don't sit far away enough, and it would just require me to play at higher resolutions, which I don't want to do! I don't care about eye candy! I care about performance. If you know a monitor that performs better than the one I selected, by all means clue me in!

What "mid-range" parts are you talking about? My GTX260 as opposed to a 280? My E8400 as opposed to Quad-Core?

Quad-Core will be replaced by i7 just the same as the Dual's will, only Dual's are cheaper and perform in games just the same.

If I'm going to replace my Q999999^999 with an i7 in a year or 2, then I'd rather spend £200 less and do the same with my E8400... But, if I'm wrong in my analysis, or am missing something, please let me know. As far as I know, quad-core gaming is virtually pointless for my purposes. I'm not wanting to play on a 26" monitor with max res + max settings... I want to play on a modest resolution on a 22" with modest settings, max only if I can achieve super-high FPS...

I don't care about hard-drive speed very much, and size doesn't matter to me because I will never use more than 200gig...

Also, about the speakers... I can't have very loud music, which is why I got modest speakers, which will do the trick just fine, and an expensive headset + nice soundcard, so that I can hear footsteps behind me in games with the headsets, I won't use the speakers often except to hear "DING!" errors while clicking on windows. Lol

Thanks again

[staffsMike]

bloody hell, that's almost a compelling argument..

But it's just fuel on the fire I'm affraid

Games don't require more than 2.2Ghz on dual core with a graphics card such as you have picked (which is hidiously overpriced, check HD4870's).

So an E8400 isn't required nor is overclocking. An e5200 would do, and will easily last 2 years until an i7 upgrade. (it will clock over 3.0Ghz)

While hard drive speed shouldn't be that important.. you might as well at least go for 320GB single platters. They don't cost any more really.

I'll leave the speakers if you're happy.

As for the case, I'm deadly opposed to spending that much on them..even when water cooling there are cheaper options which are just as good.

Also an air cooling solution for the proposed build would probably end up being quieter if you threw a bit of money at it (nothing comapred to the cost of water cooling) and be more energy efficient.

[Robscure]

bloody hell, that's almost a compelling argument..

But it's just fuel on the fire I'm affraid

Games don't require more than 2.2Ghz on dual core with a graphics card such as you have picked (which is hidiously overpriced, check HD4870's).

So an E8400 isn't required nor is overclocking. An e5200 would do, and will easily last 2 years until an i7 upgrade. (it will clock over 3.0Ghz)

While hard drive speed shouldn't be that important.. you might as well at least go for 320GB single platters. They don't cost any more really.

I'll leave the speakers if you're happy.

As for the case, I'm deadly opposed to spending that much on them..even when water cooling there are cheaper options which are just as good.

Also an air cooling solution for the proposed build would probably end up being quieter if you threw a bit of money at it (nothing comapred to the cost of water cooling) and be more energy efficient.

LOL @ almost compelling... thanks. (me with my compelling argument)

okay... My original idea was to use aircooling in a light-weight, smaller sized, Lian Li...

But a friend of mine talked me into Watercooling with its overclocking potential and longevity. Also, he runs his watercooling system at under 300w of power, and I'm sure I can do the same, so I doubt energy will be a problem... The PSU I got is 87&#37; energy efficient also...

And... MAYBE the 4870's but let me see (brb)....

.... okay I'm back.
eVGA - top quality gfx card for...
&#163;230
896MB EVGA GTX260 PCI-E 2.0 (x16), Mem 1998MHz, GPU 576MHz, 216 Cores, 2x Dual Link DVI-I/ HDTV

versus

&#163;230
512MB Sapphire HD4870 Toxic, PCI-E 2.0, 4GHz GDDR5, GPU 780MHz, 800 Cores, 2x DL DVI-I/ HDTV, HDCP

........

http://www.guru3d.com/article/top-10...ore-216-test/5

NOTE: they're using a 1gb HD4870...

The performance is actually better on the GTX260 with the "big bang" drivers... And if 4870 at all has any edge, it's not worth the extra heat+noise...

Am I wrong?

[staffsMike]

No my point (unless prices have changed drastically) is that you can get a basic 512MB HD4870 for about &#163;185 and both of these cards are overkill for your resolution right now and for the forseeable future really.

I don't doubt the power usage is still low, but I just question the point of it. So it stays a bit cooler and or allows you to overclock a bit further.. but you don't need to overclock and certainly not the extent that would require watercooling.

Air cooling is more than adequate for getting these chips well above what is required of them in games while keeping them cool enough to last a lot longer than you will ever use it for.

Like I said, if you want to do it, who am I to stop you lol I just like to make sure people see the sense in what they are doing before they do it lol

[Robscure]

No my point (unless prices have changed drastically) is that you can get a basic 512MB HD4870 for about £185 and both of these cards are overkill for your resolution right now and for the forseeable future really.

I don't doubt the power usage is still low, but I just question the point of it. So it stays a bit cooler and or allows you to overclock a bit further.. but you don't need to overclock and certainly not the extent that would require watercooling.

Air cooling is more than adequate for getting these chips well above what is required of them in games while keeping them cool enough to last a lot longer than you will ever use it for.

Like I said, if you want to do it, who am I to stop you lol I just like to make sure people see the sense in what they are doing before they do it lol

No Mike, I know you aren't stopping me Lol, I fully appreciate your help, I know what your intention is, and I'm grateful.

I think I'll take your advice on the watercooling... What's the absolute best Lian Li case and fans to put in it?

Money isn't much of an issue which is why I'm getting the 260... I love eVGA and I don't want to get less than that...

I may get Quad if its going to make a major difference in gaming performance.

[Main]

Personally, if I were planning on seriously overclocking I'd buy a much cheaper chip unless I can get one known to clock quite a bit further. There's also no way I'd spend that much on a case when you can get bigger Lian-Li ones for a lot less. £70 less. That's enough for a major upgrade of any given part in itself...

In regard to watercooling, if you have even the smallest inclination of wanting to upgrade to an i7 or another socket in the future, make sure your waterblock can be mounted to it, or if an adapter has been anounced, and if one has buy it and stash it somewhere so you don't have to worry about finding a part that might get quite rare when the manufacturer makes a new model block.

I'm rather suprised you haven't got a GPU block in your parts list, since stock graphics cards are noisier than anything else because of the high pressure fans and will see a great benefit from watercooling given that they usually run incredibly hot.

And on another note: aren't OEM licences of Windows limited to one motherboard? If you're planning on upgrading in the future would it not be better to get a full version?

[Robscure]

Personally, if I were planning on seriously overclocking I'd buy a much cheaper chip unless I can get one known to clock quite a bit further. There's also no way I'd spend that much on a case when you can get bigger Lian-Li ones for a lot less. £70 less. That's enough for a major upgrade of any given part in itself...

In regard to watercooling, if you have even the smallest inclination of wanting to upgrade to an i7 or another socket in the future, make sure your waterblock can be mounted to it, or if an adapter has been anounced, and if one has buy it and stash it somewhere so you don't have to worry about finding a part that might get quite rare when the manufacturer makes a new model block.

I'm rather suprised you haven't got a GPU block in your parts list, since stock graphics cards are noisier than anything else because of the high pressure fans and will see a great benefit from watercooling given that they usually run incredibly hot.

And on another note: aren't OEM licences of Windows limited to one motherboard? If you're planning on upgrading in the future would it not be better to get a full version?

The reason I am not getting the full version is because Windows 7 will be coming out December 2009, and so if I'm going to upgrade a mobo, I'll also buy windows 7... etc...

The reason I didn't get a GPU block is because my friend mentioned he only uses CPU and it works fine and his machine runs quiet.

The reason I selected this case instead of the cheaper, bigger Lian Li's, is that this case is supposed to be the absolute ultimate watercooling case. If you look, it has an open space at the bottom where two fans are mounted below HDD's and they suck any hot away away and blow it outside, they work perfectly, this is top-quality.

I may be interested in going with fan's if they're going to be top-quality and if it's cost-effective + future-effective to do so.

I'd still like to hear some information about how the Quad's are better to get than the E8400 I've chosen, and why.

If both Core Duo and Quad are going to be replaced by i7's, why would I get a Quad? "IT JUST DONT MAKE NO SENSE" - Soulja Boy

[Robscure]

Another person said on a different forum: "since you are £200 under budget and looking to not have to spend too much on upgrades next year etc, would it not be better to buy an i7 set-up, if you get a 920 and i7 motherboard and spend a little less on the sound card and headset.
also you'll need to change the cpu block for you water set-up to an EK Supreme i7 Acetal or similar"

Hmm well the reason I didn't choose an i7 now is because they're so expensive and will not perform as well, and just need to be upgraded when later i7's come out... And perhaps the i7's motherboard would need upgrading as well. I could get rid of watercooling all-together and go for i7 now and get really good fans... I would only do that, however, if it would save me having to buy an i7 motherboard in the future.

What do you guys think?

[Main]

The reason I am not getting the full version is because Windows 7 will be coming out December 2009, and so if I'm going to upgrade a mobo, I'll also buy windows 7... etc...

The reason I didn't get a GPU block is because my friend mentioned he only uses CPU and it works fine and his machine runs quiet.

The reason I selected this case instead of the cheaper, bigger Lian Li's, is that this case is supposed to be the absolute ultimate watercooling case. If you look, it has an open space at the bottom where two fans are mounted below HDD's and they suck any hot away away and blow it outside, they work perfectly, this is top-quality.

I may be interested in going with fan's if they're going to be top-quality and if it's cost-effective + future-effective to do so.

I'd still like to hear some information about how the Quad's are better to get than the E8400 I've chosen, and why.

If both Core Duo and Quad are going to be replaced by i7's, why would I get a Quad? "IT JUST DONT MAKE NO SENSE" - Soulja Boy

I had wondered if the impending Windows 7 was your reason to get the cheapest version Vista you can

Fair enough, if don't think watercooling is worth it you don't have to bother, infact doing so has a downside that it can be a pig to upgrade or troubleshoot if you do, unless you take that into account when you set up your loop.

Yeah I've no doubt it's a good case, and one that's well set up if you aren't equipped and/or inclined to hack up your case, it's just even bearing that in mind few will find it hard to justify spending that much.

I assume you're talking about air cooling now, but if you want to get the best out of water cooling you need good fans, so either way good fans will benefit you. Generally it can be quite difficult to justify watercooling on a basis of cost unless you get major boosts, e.g. £50 running at super speeds with £350 cooling or £350 chip with £50 cooling?

Personally I'm still on a socket 939 X2 chip so I can't tell you the sort of difference you should expect between a dual and a quad. I think it might be the point that if you're going to spend in the region of £150, you might as well get the cheapest quad core rather than a mid-range dual core, since if you want cheap you could easily spend under £100. Even if you don't use it's full potential it'd be a bit easier to sell or retire into a useful setup in the future.

[Robscure]

I had wondered if the impending Windows 7 was your reason to get the cheapest version Vista you can

Fair enough, if don't think watercooling is worth it you don't have to bother, infact doing so has a downside that it can be a pig to upgrade or troubleshoot if you do, unless you take that into account when you set up your loop.

Yeah I've no doubt it's a good case, and one that's well set up if you aren't equipped and/or inclined to hack up your case, it's just even bearing that in mind few will find it hard to justify spending that much.

I assume you're talking about air cooling now, but if you want to get the best out of water cooling you need good fans, so either way good fans will benefit you. Generally it can be quite difficult to justify watercooling on a basis of cost unless you get major boosts, e.g. £50 running at super speeds with £350 cooling or £350 chip with £50 cooling?

Personally I'm still on a socket 939 X2 chip so I can't tell you the sort of difference you should expect between a dual and a quad. I think it might be the point that if you're going to spend in the region of £150, you might as well get the cheapest quad core rather than a mid-range dual core, since if you want cheap you could easily spend under £100. Even if you don't use it's full potential it'd be a bit easier to sell or retire into a useful setup in the future.

Yes, you seem to understand my intentions well...

£350 cooling with £50 chip....

I'm going to be using this for at least 1 year, probably 2... Maybe more... I don't think any significant changes will happen to the gaming industry that would force me to upgrade on any sort of large scale.

But... If the gaming industry does change, and becomes reliant on Quad Core, for example... then rather than having a £350 chip that will need to be replaced.... I can just upgrade from the £50 chip, and still have the £350 cooling, and buy a £30 block for the new chip... and buy a motherboard for the chip... And then I can overclock the new chip to such a high rate with my amazing case + cooling still working after 1-2 years... and lasting beyond that, I'm sure.

So my choices are made with the future in mind, and also the fact that today's games (Warhammer, Crysis, Call of Duty) will be played for many years to come, and my rig will do just as well then on them as it is now. In fact, I suspect my current setup is overkill on any of today's games. If only because I'm taking into account I am happy with a 22" monitor, and don't want a 30" with max res and 3 displays lol

What would you do differently though? Would you get an i7 940 with a good mobo and run it off of aircooling? Do you suspect that will be better in the long run?

I'm thinking I will have to replace my mobo+chip any damn ways, so why not replace a mid-range such as I've chosen, as opposed to an expensive setup like an i7?

The reason I got the e8400 is because £50-£100 on the chip really isn't going to make much of a difference in the overall cost... However, upgrading to an i7 is going to make a £300 difference, or more.

[Main]

Another person said on a different forum: "since you are £200 under budget and looking to not have to spend too much on upgrades next year etc, would it not be better to buy an i7 set-up, if you get a 920 and i7 motherboard and spend a little less on the sound card and headset.
also you'll need to change the cpu block for you water set-up to an EK Supreme i7 Acetal or similar"

Hmm well the reason I didn't choose an i7 now is because they're so expensive and will not perform as well, and just need to be upgraded when later i7's come out... And perhaps the i7's motherboard would need upgrading as well. I could get rid of watercooling all-together and go for i7 now and get really good fans... I would only do that, however, if it would save me having to buy an i7 motherboard in the future.

What do you guys think?

I bought into socket 754 when socket 939 was out only a few months becasue the latter was prohibitavely more expensive, and with hindsight there were advantages and disadvantages to both until the X2s turned up - at which point I was wishing I'd gone 939 from day one... It's a difficult situation and you can approach it with different upgrade strategies:

a) Buy old tech cheap, and I mean cheap, the cheaper the better, then upgrade to newer tech when the initial teething troubles have passed and newer kit is out. In this case you're just using it as a stepping stone.
b) Buy higher level old tech and use it for longer, you might even find it lasts a lot longer than you think and you end up using it through several generations of more powerful chips...
c) Bite the bullet and buy expensive, new stuff now, safe in the knowledge you're on the bottom rung of a new upgrade ladder.

Since you have the cash, I'd be inclinded to say buy into the newer kit myself, since ultimately anything new and good is going to be on the shiny new platform, but any of them will be a gamble really - the second generation i7 chips could easily be a dud, simply based on the fact that both Intel and AMD have had their problem children (don't go spreading that as a rumour though since it's just an example of what could happen based on history...).

[Robscure]

I bought into socket 754 when socket 939 was out only a few months becasue the latter was prohibitavely more expensive, and with hindsight there were advantages and disadvantages to both until the X2s turned up - at which point I was wishing I'd gone 939 from day one... It's a difficult situation and you can approach it with different upgrade strategies:

a) Buy old tech cheap, and I mean cheap, the cheaper the better, then upgrade to newer tech when the initial teething troubles have passed and newer kit is out. In this case you're just using it as a stepping stone.
b) Buy higher level old tech and use it for longer, you might even find it lasts a lot longer than you think and you end up using it through several generations of more powerful chips...
c) Bite the bullet and buy expensive, new stuff now, safe in the knowledge you're on the bottom rung of a new upgrade ladder.

Since you have the cash, I'd be inclinded to say buy into the newer kit myself, since ultimately anything new and good is going to be on the shiny new platform, but any of them will be a gamble really - the second generation i7 chips could easily be a dud, simply based on the fact that both Intel and AMD have had their problem children (don't go spreading that as a rumour though since it's just an example of what could happen based on history...).

Yes, I agree... And my current strategy is buying high level "old" tech... It will last a long time I suspect.

The i7's might fail, or might be superceded by an unnanounced unknown AMD cpu!

Who knows! Maybe a second generation of i7 will pop up in a year and then these would be so cheap I could upgrade to one and it would be like using a 8400 versus a Quad...

I highly doubt upgrading to i7 now is going to make any difference.

And I highly doubt my pc is going to become obsolete even in 2 years time.