Help!? Sub £550 Pre Bulldozer spec. Should I wait for BD?

[Pob255]

Couple of notes here, the Lian-Li PC-Q11, it's atx not SFX while the SFX psu is smaller it'll not fit, it could be made to fit but making an ATX to SFX backplate but this would have to be custom made. (I don't know of anyone that makes/sells one)
EDIT: Ooo sorry it looks like the ST45SF should come with a back plate http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=253&area=

on air flow and the psu being in the way . . . it's not really that big a deal, normally that air path wouldn't do much anyway as you cannot use tall cpu coolers and the air will get pushed around the sides of the psu by the air pressure anyway.
I'd suspect that the air having to be pulled in through relatively small side vents would probably be a bigger restriction.

If you've got one of the original single slot cooler 4850's I can see that being a bigger issue.

That SFX psu looks very good as cabling space inside the Q11 is tight.

A good Q11 thread over here http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1523097
example of the Q11 with the ST45SF on page 5 http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=...3&postcount=96

edit: have a look at some of thoes Q11 builds, cable space is tight with an ATX PSU, make sure it's modular

[MadduckUK]

Madduck: I see what you are getting at there. Getting a bigger, slower fan will move more air through the PSU out of the case, making better cooling depsite the more restricted airflow?!

In that case, how about mounting the PSU so the fan is directly over the CPU and then using a passive HS? Something like:

http://www.scan.co.uk/products/titan...l-and-amd-cpus

Would this be sufficient cooling for the i3? Would it reduce the noise by removing the need for a HS Fan?

the airflow would only be restricted if you are sucking more in the front than you can push out the back, there wont be a problem unless you get something massive that cuts off half the front fan entirely. small cases have "restrictive airflow" just from the way they have to be, with things overlapping. im a little dissapointed that the case doesnt have a secondary extractor fan space, or at the least a top mounted extractor. i think in a perfect world the silly out of touch DVD drive would be an external usb jobbie "if you want one" and there would be a 120mm exhaust at the top.

i dont think there has been anything mentioned in this thread that wont work for you, i have seen passive scythe heatsinks used in the m-itx silverstone cases with CPUs a lot more power hungry than the i3. But there is no good reason to do it - if there is room for a fan on the heatsink then plonk something there and run it at minimum, it will be quieter than your psu at load, and far quieter then the GPU, and a HUGE piece of mind - you can always go back to the Alpha CPU cooler ideas and have it suck rather than blow - extracting right into the PSU's fan.

[Pob255]

Yes cpu cooler is a big possible issue, for an i3 it shouldn't be too bad as they don't make that much heat to start with.
The stock cooler would work fine, but it's going to be fighting against the psu, ie the psu trying to suck up as the cpu is trying to blow down.
On an H55/H57 motherboard the cpu socket is right next to the graphics card slot, which also reduces cooler options, as a wide low profile cooler like the scythe Big Shuriken is too wide and blocks off the pci-e x16 slot.

This akasa cooler is worth looking at http://www.scan.co.uk/products/akasa...e-blow-pwm-fan they are not to bad on a dual core cpu (like the i3) that would get you rearwards air flow and help with the through flow of air. We have pc's at work that use these coolers they are not too noisy.
(although I think that at 90mm it will be a tight fit.)
There's an 80mm tall version http://www.scan.co.uk/products/akasa...1155-1156-1366 but a 60mm fan might get a bit loud

The silverstone modular psu http://www.scan.co.uk/products/500w-...2v-quiet-fan-a with a short cable set http://www.scan.co.uk/products/silve...su-100-modular would be the best ATX option short of modding the cables yourself.

edit: I'm surprised CAT hasn't put forward a shuttle instead, for small form factor they are a decent option.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

I have a Core i3 2100 myself and the stock cooler is low profile and even in my modified Shuttle case does the job fine.

edit: I'm surprised CAT hasn't put forward a shuttle instead, for small form factor they are a decent option.

I forgot!!

The SH67H3 would probably do the job:

http://www.ebuyer.com/261440-shuttle-sh67h3-sh67h3

[MadduckUK]

oh god that had better not be an acceptable answer, or i have done a shedload of typing for nothing. wont be going AM3+ with one of those anytime soon.

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

Rant start:

The problem is that AMD have poor support for mini-ITX based systems. This is why I have been stuck with Intel for years and even if BD is super-duper I get the impression I will still be getting another Intel system next year!! At the rate AMD partners release mini-ITX motherboards I predict the 900 series AM3+ mini-ITX motherboards will be flipping released when they change to a new socket!

FFS,we only got AM3 mini-ITX 880G and 890GX motherboards with the SB850 southbridge in the last few months. Idiots. Good idea Zotac, release mini-ITX motherboards to retail which use the AM3 socket just before AM3+ is released. Take well over a year to release such a motherboard and do it on AM3 which is EOL.

FFS,why couldn't they have been AM3+ at least?? They could have released them a month or two later. If they had been I would have probably got one and a 45W Athlon II X2 to tide me over. Instead I ended up getting a Core i3 2100 and an H67 mini-ITX motherboard.

Even FM1 mini-ITX motherboards have only been trickling into retail now!!

Also,why are there no mATX AM3+ 900 series motherboards yet?? The 900 series motherboards have enhanced VRMs for Bulldozer CPUs. The rumoured 980G looks like it will not be released for a while too.

How long does it take them to port over the enhanced VRM design of the 900 series motherboards to an 880G based one??

Bagnaj97 has been waiting for ages for one and at this rate he will end up going for SB as his case is mATX.

Rant ended

[Pob255]

Umm he was talking about an i3 rather than waiting for BD which I don't blame him for as AM3+ mini-ITX are very few on the ground.

edit: correction AM3 are few on the ground AM3+ are non-existent.

And CAT's rant is right on the mark
I think part of the issue might be power, not enough space on a mini-itx for a major VRM circuit, this is one area where I can see intel's decision to not allow overclocking on the H61/67 actually works.

[MadduckUK]

historically very slow for the niche boards, both for intel and AMD, but intel have upped there game this gen and got some very tasty m-itx boards out.

6xx 7xx m-itx board availablilty was horriffic, minix showing boards at trade fairs 6-8-12 months before release, if they were released at all.

wont be a problem with uATX by the time BD hits, that im certain of, but mITX.. well.. who knows?

[phurbs]

Thanks one and all. Some very good advice!

My current plan of action: Get the spec as descibed (i3, mATX etc) and then get a modular ATX PSU with a large fan positioned right over the CPU socket. Then reverse the airflow on the CPU fan so it sucks air through the HS and directly into the PSU, which then extracts the air out the back.

Now, simple question, to reverse the airflow on the CPU HSF, is it simply a case of taking the fan off and flipping it over?!

I think I am pretty much locked into the Intel spec right now, mainly because of the complete lack of AM3+ mATX boards. I wont be buying anything for a month anyway (not got the $$ atm) so I will keep an eye on the AMD situation, but I can't see the mATX board situation improving tbh

[Pob255]

That's mini-ITX (also commonly called ITX, although ITX is a range of sizes not just one)

There's a few mATX (aka uATX) AM3+ motherboards about but that would mean a different and larger case.

On CPU cooler, looks like the best bet is the Scythe SHURIKEN Rev.B http://www.scan.co.uk/products/scyth...-amd-intel-cpu
http://www.scythe-usa.com/product/cp...00_detail.html
While socket 1156/1155 is not mentioned, it uses adjustable push pins so it should fit, as 1156/1155 is exactly half way between 1366 and 775


According to that thread I posted before (yes I read it all last night) it might just touch the back of the graphics card, people have ether bent it slightly or placed something in between to isolate it and make sure it doesn't cause a short on the gpu, electrical tape or a bit of anti-static bag.

A full 120mm fan can be mounted on the shuriken if needed to improve the air flow but you'd have to get creative to mount it.

[scaryjim]

... reverse the airflow on the CPU fan so it sucks air through the HS and directly into the PSU, which then extracts the air out the back ...

Your theory is sound, but I doubt it'll work very well in practice: the fan will suck air in around the heatsink as well as through it, and you won't get anywhere near as efficient cooling, to the extent that you might not even get *enough* cooling to keep the chip at a safe temperature.


On the AMD / mITX boards front, I don't think it's really fair to blame AMD since they don't manufacturer the mobos themselves: it's more an issue of partners not bringing mITX boards to market for some reason (possibly the trickier logistics of making a 2-chip mITX design, compared to intel's single chip?). I imagine that once BD moves to fusion APUs with trinity, AMD will try to unify into a single socket / chipset combination, and we'll see more mITX AMD boards because they'll be on a single chip design too.

That's what I'd hope for, anyway.



Oh, and as a little thought exercise I just priced up two AMD builds on ebuyer to compare Llano pricing with Athlon II. I went for the cheapest sensible mobo / memory / CPU combination (an ASUS AM3+ 760G mobo + DDR3-1333 + Athlon II X3 450 vs an ASRock A75 board + Corsair DDR3-2000 + A6-3650), and for the same cost (£175) you can couple a 6670 with the AM3+ set-up, but for only £10 more you can couple a 6750 with it and get what should be a significantly better gaming PC with BD upgrade possibilities. Food for thought...

[phurbs]

scaryjim: Thanks for the input, however as per my first post, I am not a heavy gamer so I dont really need the extra gaming gunt. Also, I am set on the mini-itx case so I need to work around that really :/

As a thought exercise, I have investigated the idea of bumping the i3 to an i5 2500K. Obviously there is an extra cost here, however it should only be about £80 more. I am more concerned about the potential heat issues in such a cramped case.

I would be looking to OC the i5 to around 4/4.5 on non-stock air cooling. I have read the other thread on builds in this case, and it does seem feasible.

That said, I would be interested to know how you guys would rate the following i5 build:

https://secure.scan.co.uk/aspnet/Sho...dc4a0c2597c9cd

Specifically:

Would I get sufficient airflow / cooling with this set up?
Will the Zotac board allow for a decent OC?
Would I better with a SFX 450W PSU as previously described to make more space?

Thanks again for all your help!

[scaryjim]

The Zotac board is a H series chipset, so doesn't allow overclocking at all! You need a P67 (unlikely in mITX though) or Z68 for overclocking.

EDIT:
Zotac Z68 mitx board (not in stock, though) - £135!
:/EDIT

If you want to go mITX then you're almost definitely stuck on Intel, since there are very few AMD mITX motherboards available.

That said, I notice that you haven't got a discreet graphics card in that basket, in which case you might want to consider an AMD Llano build - A6 or A8 APU, which blow Intel's graphics out of the water by some distance. Whilst none of the well known etailers have it at the minute you can source the ASRock A75M-ITX motherboard in the UK, and coupled with an A8-3850 or A6-3650 it'd make a very respectable light gaming build...

EDIT:
Can I ask why you're so set on mITX, anyway? A lot of mATX cases aren't that much bigger, and would give you a much wider range of components to choose from...

[CAT-THE-FIFTH]

For your purposes a Core i3 or an Athlon II X3 would be fine IMHO.

[phurbs]

The Zotac board is a H series chipset, so doesn't allow overclocking at all! You need a P67 (unlikely in mITX though) or Z68 for overclocking.

Well that answers that question! I think I will stick with the i3 then tbh. I dont often need the extra power that an OC'd i5 will give, it was just an idea.

That said, I notice that you haven't got a discreet graphics card in that basket, in which case you might want to consider an AMD Llano build - A6 or A8 APU, which blow Intel's graphics out of the water by some distance. Whilst none of the well known etailers have it at the minute you can source the ASRock A75M-ITX motherboard in the UK, adn coupled with an A8-3850 or A6-3650 it'd make a very respectable light gaming build...

I mentioned in one of the posts somewhere above; I have an existing HD4850 GPU which I will be putting in!

Can I ask why you're so set on mITX, anyway? A lot of mATX cases aren't that much bigger, and would give you a much wider range of components to choose from...

As for why I am stuck on mITX. Mainly just because I want to to be as small/quiet as I can, and mITX seems to meet 90% of my requirements. I realise I am limiting myself slightly, however I think the i3 build I picked out will do what I need it to do for the right price/size/noise level! Plus I really like the Lian-Li case

[phurbs]

For your purposes a Core i3 or an Athlon II X3 would be fine IMHO.

I thought as much. I think this is the way I will go, not withstanding some epic benchmark results for BD after it is released