Critique new PC project please :)

[Paul Adams]

the A8N board i posted is the A8N-E. it uses the nforce 4 Ultra chipset which is not SLI. there are 3 main nforce4 chipsets:-

nforce 4 (standard)
nforce 4 Ultra (extra features over the standard)
nforce 4 SLI ( like Ultra but with SLI)

Ahh, I was just searching on Asus's UK site for "a8n" and it only matches the 2 SLI boards: http://uk.asus.com/prog/p_search.asp?kp=a8n&langs=11

what about this case, also available in black:-
http://www.komplett.se/k/ki.asp?sku=300487&cks=PRL

I prefer silver/blue/alumnium style cases - that one's pretty neat too.
Any advantage over the Cooler Master?

you might want to check with zalman and see which GPUs their blocks are compatable with. because if you cant get the block to fit an x800xl, then you might want to take a look at some of the passively cooled cards. i assume noise is an issue? if you go with this case, you might also want to buy a fan controller or a pair of zalman fanmates for the case fans.

i am not familiar with the noise output of that psu, but you might want to look around for low noise psus if that is an issue.

Yes, noise has always been an issue since my first 9800 Pro shoe-horned into a Shuttle
I want performance, stability, quietness and a sexy case

My current A64 rig was silent when I got it, as it had a low-end nVidia card inside - now with the X800 Pro is sounds like a plane taking off when it cranks up to speed
Hence the investigation into water cooling.

I'm totally open to suggestions on cases & cooling - whatever I can source (ideally from Komplett.se), looks nice and has the capability to be vewy, vewy quiet.


Mobo requirements are Socket 939, PCIe, ideally 4Gb of memory supported at DDR400, onboard sound, network and USB - whichever fits the bill and has a little room for expansion beyond 3500+.
Things like this memory config issue now concern me, I don't want to paint myself into a corner...

[Lu-tze]

there are several good reference sites for quiet computing that might give you some ideas. here are two:-

www.quietpc.com
www.silent.se

according to the quietpc site, the reserator waterblock is compatable with all x800 series cards. but i would check the zalman site just in case.
i'm really not sure about the RAM. i think you'll have to have a good look at the manufacturers sites for any boards you consider. also make sure that you can use all 4 slots at ddr400. i know that the old boards would require a drop in speed when you use more than 2 slots. not sure about the new ones.

if i was building a silent computer like yours, i would go for something like this:-

case: akasa c62/thermaltake tsunami, lian-li pc-7 plus, pc-6 plus (non-window for all) with acoustiproducts matting on the side and bottom panels
mobo: nforce 4 ultra (replace the northbridge hsf with a passive heatsink like the Zalman if needed).
cpu: 3500 winchester
gpu: x800xl
cooling: reserator for cpu and gpu
psu: zalman silent 400W, maybe even the antec phantom passive 350W
hdd: samsung spinpoints are the quietest, but i would go for a seagate baraccudda as performance is greater. if it it still too noisy, i would look at a vibration dampening cradle, or even the silent heatpipe enclosure from www.acryan.com
optical: whatever really
case fans: i would look at the luxotops at www.whispertec.com and connect to a fan controller. or a pair of silenx 11dba. with the heat of the cpu and gpu being removed from the case, a single fan at the rear should be fine.

[speedy_s]

WAIT till the E0 stepping winchester than u can run 4Gb @ 400DDR unlike 333 or perhaps 266 with the current cpu. So be wise and wait. U don't need water cooling as u are not overclcoking. If u want quiteness don't look further than the Antec Sonata or the Artic slintium T2. GFX card coolers now days are quite quite so u might want to experiment before u slap ur cooler on!

[Stompy]

If you want to save a bit of cash, you could stick with AGP and go for the Abit AV8 - awesome mobo.

[Rave]

I see what iMc was referring to now about the 1Gb modules being supported in all slots - the MSI board specs page has a huge paragraph about dual-channel config, populating slots 1&3 making it run at 333,

This is simply a design limitation of DDR memory. Controlling lots of DDR chips at high speed is a very difficult task. The new 'Venice' core A64s may be better at coping with a lot of memory but to be honest I'd be surprised if there was a big difference. Really if you want >2GB then Opteron is the way to go, using registered DIMMs solves the problem. DDR2 has some design changes that make it easier to run a lot of memory too, although I don't know the specifics; obviously that's not an option on A64 in any case.

and how 4x1Gb = 3Gb total.... scary :/

As I understand it this purely an issue with Windows, I've seen that disclaimer mentioned for years and years; the manual for my old Abit KT7A mentions it for example.

[Paul Adams]

If you want to save a bit of cash, you could stick with AGP and go for the Abit AV8 - awesome mobo.

Nah, definitely want to go to the latest hardware where possible - A64 Socket 939 or 940, PCIe, SATA.

This is simply a design limitation of DDR memory. Controlling lots of DDR chips at high speed is a very difficult task. The new 'Venice' core A64s may be better at coping with a lot of memory but to be honest I'd be surprised if there was a big difference. Really if you want >2GB then Opteron is the way to go, using registered DIMMs solves the problem. DDR2 has some design changes that make it easier to run a lot of memory too, although I don't know the specifics; obviously that's not an option on A64 in any case.

I was looking at (dual) Opteron mobo's last night actually - there are a few nForce4 ones with PCIe... gah I just don't know!

As I understand it this purely an issue with Windows, I've seen that disclaimer mentioned for years and years; the manual for my old Abit KT7A mentions it for example.

Not my stongest field of expertise, but I think that's not quite right - they may be referring to virtual memory available per process under Windows which is currently at 2Gb by default, with 2Gb for the kernel - this can be skewed to 3Gb for the process and 1Gb for the kernel for things like SQL which eat memory.
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system...AE/PAEmem.mspx

This is where Windows x64 comes in, it's a topic I'm doing some online training on internally actually and the limits get raised from Mb & Gb up to Tb

[Lu-tze]

its true about the RAM, it seems Windows just doesnt want to acknowledge that a PC has 4gb of RAM. i think it is because that so few people have 4gb in a desktop pc, that microsoft doesnt fix it, and that few prospective buyers realise the problem. i dont know why the problem occurs, perhaps it is not fixable, or perhaps it is just a display error.

anyway, with regard to opterons, i think it would be great to have a dual opteron system, as you'll have all the power and stability you need. however, you will have to change almost all your component choices so far and then pay a hefty price premium for the new components. you will need:-

a more powerful power supply
an extended ATX case
different mobo (obviously)
registered ECC memory (more expensive than ddr)
a different cooling solution (a reserator wont do 2 cpus)
possibly different add-on cards.

i havent had much of a look at the boards, but a decent one will cost twice as much as a regular board. the ones that i have seen with pci-e so far have been SLI, and lacking any usable 33mhz pci slots. but you'll need to have a greater look around.

if you were to go opteron, getting one 246 and a 2x1gb sticks of RAM would be a good start, and then you have a good upgrade path.

as for cooling, you will need to either stick with air cooling, or have a more advanced water-cooling settup. ie. two 120mm radiators (1 for each cpu), and a decent pump to push the water around. if you want to cool the graphics card and chipset, then you'll have to comprise the loop, or add an extra Radiator. 3 radiators might be too much for the pump, so you might want a seperate pump for that loop, or stick with some decent air cooling.

you can of course have both processors connected to one radiator, but the warm water from one cpu will go straight to the other, meaning the second cpu will run about 5-10C hotter. this probably wont be an issue if you get a decent set-up though. and a decent set-up will require a two or three fan radiator, which will mean some case modding to install.

[Rave]

I was looking at (dual) Opteron mobo's last night actually - there are a few nForce4 ones with PCIe... gah I just don't know!

If you can afford it, it sounds like they'd be just up your street for the type of stuff you'll be doing.

Not my stongest field of expertise, but I think that's not quite right - they may be referring to virtual memory available per process under Windows which is currently at 2Gb by default, with 2Gb for the kernel - this can be skewed to 3Gb for the process and 1Gb for the kernel for things like SQL which eat memory.
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system...AE/PAEmem.mspx

Heh...well I thought I'd throw in a bit of a poke at Windows since I know who your employer is. I'm pretty sure that it is a Windows issue (although I have no idea if *nixes are affected too) but in fact it can address 3.5GB, which isn't so bad as only being able to manage 3GB. Whether the /3GB switch you link to makes any odds I don't know- I've never seen any mention of it in the warnings you find in motherboard manuals.

This is where Windows x64 comes in, it's a topic I'm doing some online training on internally actually and the limits get raised from Mb & Gb up to Tb

Yep, the Hammer architecture supports 40bit addresses, and hence up to 1TB. As I understand it though, Intel's 64 bit x86 processors are still using the PAE kludge which could well be bad for performance with >4GB memory.

Rich :¬)

[Paul Adams]

its true about the RAM, it seems Windows just doesnt want to acknowledge that a PC has 4gb of RAM. i think it is because that so few people have 4gb in a desktop pc, that microsoft doesnt fix it, and that few prospective buyers realise the problem. i dont know why the problem occurs, perhaps it is not fixable, or perhaps it is just a display error.

I've had a look at this and the references I find are manufacturer specific - Windows queries the BIOS for available memory and reports what it is told.
Several boards reserve a 256-768Mb hole at the top end of the 4Gb memory space for virtual addressing, sometimes RAID controllers, sometimes PCI bus addressing, sometimes memory shadowing, so this is flagged by the BIOS as in use.
Or, in the case of onboards graphics chipsets for example, the total memory reported to the OS has the memory for the graphics subtracted first.
4Gb should be addressable on Windows 2000 upwards, BIOS issues notwithstanding.

anyway, with regard to opterons, i think it would be great to have a dual opteron system, as you'll have all the power and stability you need. however, you will have to change almost all your component choices so far and then pay a hefty price premium for the new components. you will need:-

a more powerful power supply
an extended ATX case
different mobo (obviously)
registered ECC memory (more expensive than ddr)
a different cooling solution (a reserator wont do 2 cpus)
possibly different add-on cards.

i havent had much of a look at the boards, but a decent one will cost twice as much as a regular board. the ones that i have seen with pci-e so far have been SLI, and lacking any usable 33mhz pci slots. but you'll need to have a greater look around.

if you were to go opteron, getting one 246 and a 2x1gb sticks of RAM would be a good start, and then you have a good upgrade path.

as for cooling, you will need to either stick with air cooling, or have a more advanced water-cooling settup. ie. two 120mm radiators (1 for each cpu), and a decent pump to push the water around. if you want to cool the graphics card and chipset, then you'll have to comprise the loop, or add an extra Radiator. 3 radiators might be too much for the pump, so you might want a seperate pump for that loop, or stick with some decent air cooling.

you can of course have both processors connected to one radiator, but the warm water from one cpu will go straight to the other, meaning the second cpu will run about 5-10C hotter. this probably wont be an issue if you get a decent set-up though. and a decent set-up will require a two or three fan radiator, which will mean some case modding to install.

Oof, much reading up is needed methinks

This is all my girlfriend's fault for saying "go for it!" when I jokingly said I fancied building a PC to add to the 7 we already have between us

[Paul Adams]

If you can afford it, it sounds like they'd be just up your street for the type of stuff you'll be doing.

It used to be soooo simple to make PC building decisions years ago

Heh...well I thought I'd throw in a bit of a poke at Windows since I know who your employer is. I'm pretty sure that it is a Windows issue (although I have no idea if *nixes are affected too) but in fact it can address 3.5GB, which isn't so bad as only being able to manage 3GB. Whether the /3GB switch you link to makes any odds I don't know- I've never seen any mention of it in the warnings you find in motherboard manuals.

I get that a lot
/3GB just skews the virtual memory that a single process can have for itself, leaving the kernel with 1GB to share between all processes.
There are systems running XP and 2000 Pro with 4Gb of addressable memory without jiggery-pokery. *shrug*

Yep, the Hammer architecture supports 40bit addresses, and hence up to 1TB. As I understand it though, Intel's 64 bit x86 processors are still using the PAE kludge which could well be bad for performance with >4GB memory.

Yeah, backwards compatibility is always going to be an issue - supporting legacy apps and hardware is almost always required or people won't buy or use the stuff you are suggesting... I guess that's why 16-bit apps have continued to be supported unti the advent of Windows x64.
I remember dabbling with assembler programming on the x86 architecture years ago when more than 1Mb was possible - the hassle to get into a flat memory addressing mode was incredible, compared to something like an Amiga where memory was "just there".

[Rave]

You might be right about it not being an OS issue Paul, if so I apologise for slighting Windows. CBA to research it further.

Anyway, for all my pontificating about 2GB RAM, it seems that at least some A64s can manage decent speeds with 2x1GB sticks:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...ad.php?t=56197

Get a Venice core chip and you'd probably be in business.