Is now an "okay" time to build a new PC?

[TooNice]

I won't be doing any volt modding... Unless its dead easy (e.g. from the bios).

Just for reference... What RAM type of RAM does AlthonFX use? It'll be nice if I can use the RAM I get now for the next upgrade.

[Austin]

Best bang HSF has got to be the Volcano 11 although 12 is due soon.

The P4 800FSB offer exceptional perf and HT really helps things to seem smoother ... but worth the extra £100 or so ... not really ... not unless you really need that extra 5% perf. XP2500+ is better not only because of the cash savings but because it is unlocked you can really optimise your o/c and don't need to guess what your mobo and RAM will need to do. P4C 2.4ghz is one heck of a chip ... but price to perf Athlon still own it. For gaming the gfx card is by far the most critical component, spending the extra cash on a gfx card is much easier if you go the Athlon route.

9600XT is very unlikely to be significantly better than the cheaper 9600PRO, as soon as you factor in o/c'ing the 9600PRO is surely better value although we won't know until final XT hw hits. GF-FX are too flawed and while not awful by any means they are over-priced, basically avoid them. The 9700 (even nonPRO) is significantly better than the Rad9600XT and GF-FX5600ultra (and FX5900 too), if you can get one (that's a true 9700) then it's well worth it. Most 9700nonPRO o/c PAST 9700PRO/9800 speeds, great (but obsolete) cards. As mentioned 4200 are excellent for the money, half the price of the 9600XT & FX5600ultra yet offering comparable speed outside of DX9 and high AA+AF ... will not really devalue either. The ONLY brand I advise avoiding for Radeons is Powercolor, well known for cutting corners, poor build quality, underclocking, cheap parts, implimenting awful castration like 64bit DDR and poor service they are best avoided although you may get lucky, esp with the mid to high end cards like 9600.

Only 'wrong' time to buy is any time you buy too near the top ... given o/c'ability of the mid-range it makes no sense buying top-end anyway.

Finally volt modding can be done from the BIOS but use extreme caution as it can be easy to kill parts, added voltage creates a LOT more stress and heat. AthlonXP (FX are 64bit and pricey) use PC3200, 2 sticks for Dual Channel mobos like nForce2 Ultra400 chipset (5% boost). That's the same RAM that will be used in Skt939 which will replace the Skt754 current Athlon64 use. DDR-II should be with us next year some time, but will be pricey and not wholely worth it (IMHO). nForce2 400 (non Ultra), KT600 and SiS748 are all pretty even but since nF2 400 can be had for £40 (www.dabs.com DabsValue / Biostar) it seems pointless getting anything else. VIA (KT400, KT600) are well known for knocking out cheap but buggy hw while SiS are well known for omitting any o/c'ing facilities (even though 400FSB is all you SHOULD need).

[Alan]

One thing I've been wondering is why the 110 cost TWICE as much as most CM cases.

One of the 110's problems is that when other CM case prices came down, its didn't (this also applies to the 410 and somewhat to the 101) These older cases are made of heavier gauge aluminium for a kick off.

I have a 111 as well as a 110 and the 111 is not a slightly smaller version of the 110 even though it looks it. It is a 201 chassis with a lighter version of the 110 front panel bolted onto it. There are several structural members missing from the 111 but present in the 110 which means that the 110 is vastly stronger than the 201 chassis type of case.

Broadly, in Cooler Master cases, structural rigidity depends upon the drive cages which are continuous from top to bottom which means you can't have removeable ones. The 110 (and 101) have a vertical bar at the back of the case (right side) and another one in the middle rear of the mobo tray. The front panel of the 110 is up to 10mm thick in places. It also seems somehow, classier.

With the introduction of the 2nd version of the 200 and the 201, the prices started to drop, partly because of competition, and partly changes in manufacturing processes which makes the newer version feel less sturdyt (though still good) than the earlier version.

Basically, most Cooler Master chassis consisted of only a couple of chassis with different fascia plates so from the 200/201 chassis you get: 100, 111, 200. 201, 210, 220
From the 101 type chassis you get the 101 and the 110

/A bigger answer than I meant

[TooNice]

Assuming the chip can go that high, can a Volcano11 take the XP2500+ to 3200+ ?
What does Volcano12 provide that Volcano11 doesnt?

No Powercolor... Oh well, there goes the sub £100 9600Pro lol..

So the 110 is sturdier. But is that really useful? I don't move my case very often (and if I did I'd probably consider a shuttle).
If I go for a 110, it'll be the "B" version (with the windowed side panel). Is this one any less sturdy than the original?

Oh and... When can I view the sales/trade forum?

[Rod911]

Originally posted by Austin
9600XT is very unlikely to be significantly better than the cheaper 9600PRO, as soon as you factor in o/c'ing the 9600PRO is surely better value although we won't know until final XT hw hits.

Tomshardware
Tech-Report

Originally posted by TooNice
What does Volcano12 provide that Volcano11 doesnt?

ThermalTake's website. It has links to reviews and information about the product itself.

[luke313]

50 posts to view the for sale forum, BUT please dont spam to get there

[Austin]

Great info on the CM cases Alan, it's a shame we don't see more breakdowns and info like that regarding cases.

Nice links Rod911. So with the 9600XT you should get an intelligent fan, 9500PRO were quiet enough and from what I hear 9600PRO are also very quiet anyway, still a nice feature to have. It's also nice to have an o/c'ing nod from ATI, though not hugely necessary, we'll have to see what CAT3.9's Overdrive feature will bring (hopefully a lot more than 527mhz core). ATI were VERY conservative with the 9600PRO's clock speed, that made it worse that they could have offered perf close to the 9500PRO it replaced. I guess we'll have to see what the lowK and BD can do as most 9600PRO exceeded 500mhz core. Memory clock remains the same 600mhz as on the 9600PRO, a shame really (though predictable) as the 128bitDDR is still a bottleneck to perf. The XT still seems to lack the T-buffer that came about in the 9800 series, although that doesn't seem to have had much of an effect so far anyway. The XT keeps with the 9600PRO's tradition of having no additional power input, in a few cases that seemed to cause problems for some mobo's AGP slots most likely made worse with a faster core on an XT.

In benchmarks we see little that would make the XT seem anything more than what a 9600PRO would yeild with a 500mhz core, a speed which 9600PRO are happy at. It should also be of note that the 9600XT's 500mhz is still 10% slower (due to 4 pipes vs 8 pipes) than the old 9500PRO, still that 10% can easily be made up by the faster RAM and various optimisations. Still we obviously aren't seeing much in the way of DX9 games, most of the titles due out in the next few months are still DX8 based with a little DX9 magic bolted on.

Of course this is still all from ATI's reference boards of 9600XT, not final (public) release hw. I can't help feeling the 9600PRO should simply have had a core closer to 500mhz from the off though, why give nVidia an easy ride? It would seem that from reference hw an o/c from 500mhz core to somewhere near 600mhz core is possible with the XT, most 9600PRO get from 400mhz to somewhere near 550mhz. So the 9600XT's core would be 10% faster (when both are o/c'ed), that would equate to 5% overall perf but I'd expect 128bitDDR even at 650mhz is likely to be a bottleneck. £150 9600XT vs £120 9600PRO ... HL2 and guaranteed stock perf could make it worth it?

[TooNice]

Still, at £150, it might be possible to get a 9700 second hand.. Or a 9700Pro for slightly more. Doesn't look like there is too much premium to pay between the various Radeons until you hit the 9800. And feature wise, I don't think there is much difference is there?

(I know the XT got certain enhancement added to it - but doesn't seem to make enough difference to justify the price IMHO).

[Austin]

Rad9500-9800 are all 99% the same technology-wise. The 9800 have the mysterious T-buffer which is meant to enhance DX9 titles ... but there aren't any real DX9 titles LOL. So basically it's just down to speed, measures by number of pipelines and clock speeds. 9500 & 9600 are bitterly slow and not very o/c'able. 9500PRO, 9600PRO and it seems 9600XT offer very good perf and o/c very well too. 9700 is a great card, better at stock than most o/c'ed 9500PRO-9600XT and when you o/c the 9700 it tends to exceed 9700PRO and 9800, close to 9800PRO. 9700PRO is easily as good as 9800, when both of those are o/c'ed they can get very close to 9800PRO speed. 9800SE is a bit of a turkey, it seems they come in 128bitDDR and 256bitDDR version and are a tad slower and faster than the 9600PRO respectively BUT are not good o/c'ers at all. 9800XT takes things a little further than 9800PRO. Obviously 9500 & 9700 aren't made anymore but you may find a bargain.

[TooNice]

Okay, here I go..

*First Draft of new PC including price and locations*

From CPU City
(Note: I've never shopped from here. Are they reliable?)

- ARCTIC SILVER 3 THERMAL COMPOUND 3 GRAMS/8736 £4.11

- AMD ATHLON XP 2500+ 333FSB SKT-A OEM BARTON AQZFA £65.80

- ABIT NF7-S V2.0 £79.31
Note: Does this motherboard come with Floppy/IDE Cables? Also, I know its probably being asked before, but whats the difference between this one and the Asus one.. Appart from lacking an extra Nic?

- T/TAKE A1607 XP3400+ VOLCANO 11 XASER RED 5567 £16.39
Note: Do I need a fan for this or is it included?

- Antec TrueBlue 480 Watt PSU £78.72
Note: This is probably way more than I need... But is it enough if, one day, I decide to go for a Prometia/Vapachill (unlikely, but still).

Sub inc shipping: £254.21

From Komplett:
- TwinMOS PC3200 DDR-DIMM 512MB w/Winbond £79.94
Note: Only place I can find those. Any better deal around?

Sub inc shipping: £82.92

From Ebuyer:
- Western Digital Caviar SE 160GB UIDE 100 7200rpm 8mb Cache - OEM £99.40
Note: I mentioned I already had a 120GB WD. But I didn't mention I was a space hog ^^;
Sub £100 for a drive of this size is too good to ignore

- Alps Floppy Disk Drive 1.44MB 3.5 inch internal - OEM £5.69

- Pioneer 4x DVD DUAL R/RW IDE BURNER - OEM £105.16

- Liteon 52x32x52x IDE DRIVE - OEM £26.75

Sub inc shipping: £241.69

Total so far: £578.82

Now suppose I lose my mind and went for a CM110 at Kustom PC, thats another £240 bringing the total to approx £818.82.
Then I need to decide on a GFX card. I can probably get a Radeon 9700 Pro on Ebay and *still* remain under £1000.

Or, I could go for a "cheaper" case (e.g. Black Widow at half the price), a cheap but still decent GFX card (e.g. GeForce4 Ti4200) and get a decent-good 21" refurb monitor to replace my aging (but faithful) 19" Sony monitor. Woah, so many choices!!

Have I missed anything? Appart from keyboard/mouse/monitor/speakers, do I have a complete system?

I've got until end of the month latest to decide, so I still have some time to do some ajustments... But ideally, I'd like to order the items next week.

[BUFF]

CPU City are first rate, IMHO.

- ABIT NF7-S V2.0 £79.31
Note: Does this motherboard come with Floppy/IDE Cables? Also, I know its probably being asked before, but whats the difference between this one and the Asus one.. Appart from lacking an extra Nic?

Yes it comes with flat Floppy/IDE Cables. You also get a SATA adapter with the ABIT that you won't with the ASUS .
Mostly BIOS options.
The ASUS is better laid out but the ABIT seems to have a better sound implementation.
The ABIT has an actively cooled NB, the ASUS is passive.

Have I missed anything? Appart from keyboard/mouse/monitor/speakers, do I have a complete system?

An Operating System?
Unless you are planning on Linux about £65 for OEM Win XP Home.

[luke313]

That is a very good spec so far, but I would go for the Black Widow over the 110, and buy an even better graphics card (eg. 9800pro ), but you have said you aren't a mega gamer, so you may want to go for the ti4200 or slightly better (9600XT), and keep a bit of cash spare for some nice speakers or a few games.

[Austin]

Yep, CPUcity shot to fame when they were one of the first retailers to guarantee TbredB core, most retailers either heglected to give any core info or simply stated Tbred ... rather than the all important TbredB. Anyway many people have used them and so far nobody has had a bad word to say.

Abit NF7-S v2.0 comes with many extras inc IDE-to-SATA convertor, SATA data lead but only one ATA133 IDE lead (cheap sods could have given you 2). The Abit is easily as good as the Asus A7N8X Deluxe, Abit tend to be better for o/c'ing and are less fussy about RAM while the Asus is much quieter as the NB is passively cooled (plus extra NIC). Volcano11 inc the Smart Fan II, one of the best fans you can get with intellignet and manual adjustment modes.

Antec are tops in PSUs, 480W is a lot of PSU but it's better to go a little over than under, 400W is plenty though. I think Scan do CTW PSUs which seem to be rebadged Antecs. You could look to other top notch brands like Enermax and ThermaTake. Other decent ones are Sparkle, ToPower and S.Flower. TwinMOS with Winbond is top stuff but even the basic TwinMOS that CPUcity do is still great stuff. It makes more sense not to worry about WinBond since you're already buying from CPUcity.

WD are just about the fastest of the PATA drives but it's very marginal. When you take noise or heat into account it is worth checking out Maxtor and Seagate's offerings. I'm not too sure about Pioneer for DVD, most people prefer NEC or Sony, IIRC there was a very good deal in the Hexus Bargains section. You shouldn't need a CDRW if you get a DVD Writer as they can do CDs, just a little slower. For £27 it is worth it if you burn quite a few CDs, LiteOn are tops too.

Gfx card is THE most important part when gaming is involved. 4200 is exceptional value but when you're spending £1000 it makes sense to get at least a 9600PRO if not something closer to a 9800. Also rem that good quality speakers, mouse and keyboard can really make a diff in the day-to-day use of your PC. Your 19" is fine, you could snap up one of those bargain refurbed 21" though. Also rem that a decent printer, scanner & d.camera can really add to the versatility of your PC.

[TooNice]

What brackets are provided for Asus/Abit motherboard? I seem to remember seing the Asus one which packed a lot into one bracket. (USB/LAN/Audio/Othet things I forgot).

I am dodging Scan as my one and only experience with them had been poor (leaved a bad after taste - even though it could've been worse).

My WD1200JB has worked reliably.. And since I've never had a particularly quiet computer (my current one is so loud I hardly hear my WD1200JB!) I don't think noise is too much of an issue. The 160Gig version seem to provide a good space:speedrice ratio.

Still, if anyone knows where I could get a Hitachi Desktar 7K250
That one seem to have taken over the leaderboard on storagereview.com, so I am considering it.

PSU wise, how much power does a typical Prom/Vapo consume? (full system).

Speakers wise, I am still waiting for some reviews of the Gigaworks. I'll probably settle for the 5.1 version, but thats assuming it doesn't cost over £250, and not before Christmas/new year anyway.

I've just bought a ex demo multipurpose printer/scanner/copier on dabsexchange yesterday (Epson CX5500 - or something) for £70, so thats done.

Finally, can the Twinmos in CPUCity take a 2500+ to 3200+ with decent/good timing?
(I know nothing is guaranteed - but does it stand a good chance? It'll save a bit from buying those Winbond from Komplett).

[Austin]

Brackets are about the same, certainly nothing notably different. WD is way mroe preferable to Hitachi, even if the Hit it faster and cheaper. I'm not sure about the reqs of P/V but I can't see how a 480W Antec PSU couldn't handle things. TwinMOS of at least PC3200 can easily take an XP2500+ to XP3200+ as it's rated to run at 400mhz, most people find it can handle fast timings too and can even o/c well if needed. IMHO grab the TwinMOS from CPUcity, so long as you buy at least PC3200 it will not be limiting for you.

[ERU]

If your l@@king for cheap i made this system the other week:

2.5ghz CPU 333mhz - £69.49 ebuyer
Coolermaster Aero 7 Lite - £17.57 OcUK
Maxtor 120gb sata HDD - £87.91 ebuyer
TwinMos x2 256mb pc3200 - £66.92 OcUK
Ge-force ti4200 - £67.36 ebuyer
Creative Inspire 5100 5.1 speakers - £42.89 OcUK
Abit NF7-S v2.0 - £86.36 OcUK
Cheap scanner - £26.44 ebuyer
21" B grade Monitor - £55.00 ACcomputers
Leather chair - £35.00 Viking.com
P&P - £7.49 ebuyer, £9.75 OcUK
*I had a case already but you can can a Chieftec Dragon for £45.00 from most places.

This system will easily overclock to a 3200+ and then some more. It is stable as a rock too The Lite is apparently better then the normal copper Aero too.