Flash advice

[Saracen]

Ok. I've found more on diffusers, or the Stofen type of diffusers versus a two flash, off camera setup with a remote, and it looks like Bobster's setup would make for better pictures from the start, so back to the drawing board for me, at least for now anyway.

Stofen vs 2 flashes off camera

I could be mischievous and ask .... what about two flashes, on camera, with Stofen diffusers, that being exactly what I often use. But it would be mischievous because I'm talking about macro flash (Canon MT-24 to be specific), and while that's a superb solution for what it's designed for, it's far from a general solution, and is distinctly lacking in power for your use. You can, however, get multi-flash brackets, allowing two (maybe more) conventional flashguns to be mounted sort-of on-camera.

[Saracen]

Maybe I'm using the wrong term when I talk about a diffuser, I thought it was a common photographic term, when I talk about a diffuser I'm talking about something that can be attached to a flash in order to soften the light and/or spread the light ....

No, your terminology is correct, and the Stofens, Wong Lightspheres, mini portable softboxes, etc, are all diffusers, and known as such.

Bobster's comment was, I assume, pointing out, if a tad flippantly, that you can also use convenient light surfaces, like walls, ceilings, etc as a diffuser. After all, if your flash fires directly at a subject you get harsh lighting. But if you bounce it of a convenient nearby surface, you get a far less harsh, less directional, diffuse light.

It's something of a debate between the more purist element, and the gadget conscious. In my view, both camps have a point, and both approaches have their merits.

And, for that matter, many diffusers can be home-built, with varying combinations of wire, cardboard, tracing paper, etc, and a layer (or two) of tracing paper and a rubber band will achieve much the same result as a purpose-built Stofen.

In my defence, on the MT-24, I can fit or remove the Stofens to both flash heads in about three seconds each, and don't have to worry about losing the rubber band. And, given what the flash cost, the cost of the Stofens wadn't exactly a major concern.

[KeyboardDemon]

Thanks Saracen, I am actually more confused than I was when I first started, but that's not a bad thing.

I need to start planning in more detail as I started this post with only a vague idea about what I really wanted to achieve. Thinking about what I want and if I consider Bobster's posts where he has essentially challenged me to think beyond my immediate needs I can now how I would be able to create a portable studio based around a good Speedlite combination, but as I will be using Speedlites I will also be able to use one on its own as a single mounted flash or a multiple units mounted on stands. All this sounded like it was completely overkill for me at first, but then as I started to think about it more, reading and watching videos on YouTube, it reminded me of how I enjoyed being in a studio with lights and flashes when I was at uni, plus if I want to make a bit of extra pocket money as a freelance photographer this would make it easier for me to go into people's homes and set up studio quality lighting. People viewing the pictures will never know the difference, as Bobster has shown with some of his shots posted on the previous page.

[Saracen]

I've often found, over the years, that I start out thinking I've got a grasp of what I want, but when I ask a basic question or two, people throw things at me that make me realise I hadn't been asking the right questions, often because I didn't know enough to know what to ask. This is especially true in a field I don't know, or one I'm well out if touch with, or out of date on.

And when that happens, things often get more confusing before they start to come into focus again, but when they do focus again, it's with a much better understanding of where I'm going.

If that's what happened to you here, one of two things should result. Either you end up going where you originally thought, but with far more confidence, or you realise where you should be going instead. Either way, it's a result!

[KeyboardDemon]

I've often found, over the years, that I start out thinking I've got a grasp of what I want, but when I ask a basic question or two, people throw things at me that make me realise I hadn't been asking the right questions, often because I didn't know enough to know what to ask. This is especially true in a field I don't know, or one I'm well out if touch with, or out of date on.

And when that happens, things often get more confusing before they start to come into focus again, but when they do focus again, it's with a much better understanding of where I'm going.

If that's what happened to you here, one of two things should result. Either you end up going where you originally thought, but with far more confidence, or you realise where you should be going instead. Either way, it's a result!

Thanks, that was so beautifully stated I read it a couple of times, indeed that is what has happened to me, as I said above I was confused but in a good way and hopefully Bobster won't be offended by my trying to get him to explain his reasoning to me, he didn't quite give me the answer I wanted but did get me looking things up to find out just what sort of 'crazy' ideas he was hinting at. I am now pointing my previously rudderless boat in a new direction and this is what I have decided on.

3 YN560 mk II Speedlites
3 stands (I might already have these)

I will also need a set of Softboxes, probably 24", a reflector, a portable background and some backdrops, I was thinking of white, black, grey, one with a pattern/texture and maybe one for chroma key style shooting, but not too sure about the chroma key screen. I think this combination will allow me to take pictures and properly model the lighting instead of relying on a single flash everytime I end up using a flash.

Does this sound ok? Have I missed anything? Should I also be thinking about gels? And most importantly what remote trigger should I be thinking about?

[Bobster]

sorry guys - not been within internet range for the past 2 days...

Nice shots there, Bobster ....though as a pro, I guess they ought to be. There's something I especially like about the girl with platinum and turqoise hair (or wig?). Partly, it's the unusual hair, and partly, that ever-so-slight hint of a pout in her expression. But whatever it is, it's beautifully captured, and shows perfectly what can be done with a relatively simple lighting setup .... and without using three grand's worth of Bowen's studio stuff, and ceiling-mounted lighting rails.

I don't know if you work from a studio, or visit people's home for "on-site" shoots, but do you ever find people expect loads of fancy, complicated-looking stuff from a pro, and worry or look down a bit at it if you use "amateur" gear?

This shot was taken with about £600 worth of Elenchrom lighting using a Canon G9 (was testing the G9 with flash - lighting was setup by a studio user)

I don't think anyone judges me on the gear i use, but they judge based on the results i give them.

Difference between speedlights and studio lights is power of output, speedlights will usually only give about f/8 worth of power at ISO100 - now, at 100% power it takes about 30 seconds to cycle power and you'll be sucking through your rechargeable batts at a rate of knots.. so thats when you'd think about switching to studio power, faster recycle times, more power. However for a portable solution, studio lights need a huge battery to go with them, a right pain in the rear!

Also, when you walk into a studio, you want to see lights everywhere and props or you'd not see it as a professional outfit?

For me, my style I'm shooting 1.4 up to 8, but usually around the 2.8/4 mark so only in certain circumstances will i think about pulling out the studio lights and the long power cables to go with them.. The world is my studio, so i'm portable, but happy to use a studio if the need arises.

Maybe I'm using the wrong term when I talk about a diffuser, I thought it was a common photographic term, when I talk about a diffuser I'm talking about something that can be attached to a flash in order to soften the light and/or spread the light so that it is less direct or not as harsh when it reaches the subject, something along the lines of a Stofen, a rogue Diffusion panel or like one of these, as you can see I haven't worked out which type I want.

This is a great question, it got me thinking. I think it might be partly this that has me worrying about what hardware to get, when people see me pulling out flashlights and propping them onto stands instead of using 'proper' studio flashes they might not think I can do as good a job as a pro using more expensive 'high end' gear.

Yeah, its a misconception that people think a stofen is a diffuser, all it really does is over work your flash, for not that good a result. The Rogue i could be seen used in certain circumstances as it does actually do a pretty decent job at making the size of the flash larger.

Ok. I've found more on diffusers, or the Stofen type of diffusers versus a two flash, off camera setup with a remote, and it looks like Bobster's setup would make for better pictures from the start, so back to the drawing board for me, at least for now anyway.

Stofen vs 2 flashes off camera

ugh.. got to love the internet..

I could be mischievous and ask .... what about two flashes, on camera, with Stofen diffusers, that being exactly what I often use. But it would be mischievous because I'm talking about macro flash (Canon MT-24 to be specific), and while that's a superb solution for what it's designed for, it's far from a general solution, and is distinctly lacking in power for your use. You can, however, get multi-flash brackets, allowing two (maybe more) conventional flashguns to be mounted sort-of on-camera.

Forget Stofen - push it far, far from your mind.. instead for macro stuff, look at something along the lines of a large yoghurt pot, a sheet of kitchen roll and a bracket to mount the flash on so you can twist your light into position

No, your terminology is correct, and the Stofens, Wong Lightspheres, mini portable softboxes, etc, are all diffusers, and known as such.

Bobster's comment was, I assume, pointing out, if a tad flippantly, that you can also use convenient light surfaces, like walls, ceilings, etc as a diffuser. After all, if your flash fires directly at a subject you get harsh lighting. But if you bounce it of a convenient nearby surface, you get a far less harsh, less directional, diffuse light.

It's something of a debate between the more purist element, and the gadget conscious. In my view, both camps have a point, and both approaches have their merits.

And, for that matter, many diffusers can be home-built, with varying combinations of wire, cardboard, tracing paper, etc, and a layer (or two) of tracing paper and a rubber band will achieve much the same result as a purpose-built Stofen.

In my defence, on the MT-24, I can fit or remove the Stofens to both flash heads in about three seconds each, and don't have to worry about losing the rubber band. And, given what the flash cost, the cost of the Stofens wadn't exactly a major concern.

I was just trying to judge what KD's interprotation of a difuser was now go throw your stofen's in the bin!

Thanks, that was so beautifully stated I read it a couple of times, indeed that is what has happened to me, as I said above I was confused but in a good way and hopefully Bobster won't be offended by my trying to get him to explain his reasoning to me, he didn't quite give me the answer I wanted but did get me looking things up to find out just what sort of 'crazy' ideas he was hinting at. I am now pointing my previously rudderless boat in a new direction and this is what I have decided on.

3 YN560 mk II Speedlites
3 stands (I might already have these)

I will also need a set of Softboxes, probably 24", a reflector, a portable background and some backdrops, I was thinking of white, black, grey, one with a pattern/texture and maybe one for chroma key style shooting, but not too sure about the chroma key screen. I think this combination will allow me to take pictures and properly model the lighting instead of relying on a single flash everytime I end up using a flash.

Does this sound ok? Have I missed anything? Should I also be thinking about gels? And most importantly what remote trigger should I be thinking about?

I'm a seasoned dyslexic internet user, i have rhino thick skin

If the 560's are the route you want to go, you should look at YN560III's as they now have built in receiver for the YN602/3 trigger (1 less thing to worry about) <- a very cheap solution to get you back into flash

You should think about softbox vs umbrellas with your setups too..

[KeyboardDemon]

I'm a seasoned dyslexic internet user, i have rhino thick skin

If the 560's are the route you want to go, you should look at YN560III's as they now have built in receiver for the YN602/3 trigger (1 less thing to worry about) <- a very cheap solution to get you back into flash

You should think about softbox vs umbrellas with your setups too..

The reference to your ideas with regards to your flash set up were described as crazy in single quotes as that's how I perceived them at the start, however having been given your ideas I thought it best to find out more about it as I couldn't flatly disregard an idea without first finding out what the idea really meant or how it works, and as you can see I have come around to your way of thinking. Since starting this thead I have been speaking to everyone I know that knows anything about photography and have found out that a friend of a friend hires a studio on a regular basis and he said he would invite be along to his next shoot, as he has a model that wants some specific shots for her portfolio. This will help me get some experience and see how a speedlite studio is set up.

[Saracen]

I don't disagree with the yoghurt pot scenario, on principle, but the benefit of the Stofens in that I can have both of them on the flash heads in about 5 seconds. Are there better, home-crafted options? Probably. But they're a lot less convenient, and my with / without shots tells me that the Stofens work, and the limitations of that ....which is when I insert a small sheet of thin but translucent plastic inside them. That's an extra 10 seconds.

Oh, and for my purposes, I'm usually using them with the flash power dialled quite a long way back anyway.

Ideal? No. Useful? Yup.

[KeyboardDemon]

I don't disagree with the yoghurt pot scenario, on principle, but the benefit of the Stofens in that I can have both of them on the flash heads in about 5 seconds. Are there better, home-crafted options? Probably. But they're a lot less convenient, and my with / without shots tells me that the Stofens work, and the limitations of that ....which is when I insert a small sheet of thin but translucent plastic inside them. That's an extra 10 seconds.

Oh, and for my purposes, I'm usually using them with the flash power dialled quite a long way back anyway.

Ideal? No. Useful? Yup.

Looking at the video posted by ThatNikonGuy about how a Stofen's diffuser works, I think using it really depends on what you are shooting and where, his main criticism was that it was used by too many photographers as an all purpose solution, and that is not what it is. In most cases if people are using it in an open space then they are in effect wasting the power drawn from the batteries to power their flash, the first guy I spoke to at Spectrum (the first to suggest a Nissin) also said something very similar and he suggested a Gary Fong Lightsphere and collapsable diffuser as this offers better control of the light from the flash, if you know when you need to modify your setup by adding thin translucent films inside yours then that indicates that you not only understand some of the limitations but also how you can compensate for them.

For me, I really need to get some hands on experience working with a photographer using a similar setup to the one I have in mind in order to see how the results come out and to find out if softboxes or umbrellas or a combination would be better for me, ultimately I'll probably need a set of each and I might even end up using a Stofen in order to flood an area with light from time to time.