If u vote ur a mupppet!

[revol68]

if u vote ur a mupppet! Only the stupidiest cow picks its own butcher. As for strikes being a problem.. well the problem lies with capitalism not strikers!

[G4Z]

I would support unions but at the time they went too far, far too far and they paid the price when thatcher cut their balls off. If it wasnt for the behaviour of the unions then we might have trade unions with some clout now.

personally I will vote liberal as they are the only party that hasnt had the chance to disappoint me. I think that in this climate its the people who dont vote that are the idiots, basically allowing all this to happen and not using your one little bit of power to say something about it.

[revol68]

It is a myht that th unions went to far! how can the working class go to far?? the working class havent went far enough until they throw out the boss the managers and start runnin the means of production themselves!

[revol68]

also u say ur da is a mechanic, however that doesnt make him working class by default( if he works for himself then he is technically not working class, infact the self-employed/small employers where the first to buy into the thatcherite nonsense!)

and oh yeah how exactly did the miners go to far ??? yep striking for ur job is rally going to far!

[revol68]

and by the way it wasnt suppoused to be insulting to u, it was criticism of the myth that the unions went to far. And the unions never went that far, infact the leadership held back the workers militancy.

My point is that under capitalism there will inevitably be strikes because the interests of the bosses and the owners are in conflict. The reason why the unions are so weak today is because they have joined in the chorus of social partnership wereby workers and managment are suppoused to work together, which really means that ur union official sells u out everytime in the name of partnership and industrial relations. And guess what the rationale is behind social partnership?? yep tyhe unions went to far!

[nichomach]

and by the way it wasnt suppoused to be insulting to u, it was criticism of the myth that the unions went to far. And the unions never went that far, infact the leadership held back the workers militancy.

My point is that under capitalism there will inevitably be strikes because the interests of the bosses and the owners are in conflict. The reason why the unions are so weak today is because they have joined in the chorus of social partnership wereby workers and managment are suppoused to work together, which really means that ur union official sells u out everytime in the name of partnership and industrial relations. And guess what the rationale is behind social partnership?? yep tyhe unions went to far!

Now there I agree with you; when you have the government of the day appointing a hatchetman Like Ian McGregor to throw out agreed pay deals and close profitable pits, putting people out of work for no other reason than to break their union, then you know any talk about the unions going too far is crap. In fact the worst years for strike action (strikes called, numbers of workers out) were under Thatcher and for very good reason. The NUM made two very stupid blunders, though; the first being that they struck in summer, and no miner should strike with the sun on his back. The second was Scargill never calling a national ballot, but calling each area out individually. If he'd called a national ballot, he'd have won it, and there'd have been less reason for areas like Nottingham to refuse to strike.

[revol68]

yeah those nottingham scabs should hang there head in shame they really screwed over there fellow miners there, not to mention the whole workingclass and then they whinge about get there windows put in!

[G4Z]

also u say ur da is a mechanic, however that doesnt make him working class by default( if he works for himself then he is technically not working class, infact the self-employed/small employers where the first to buy into the thatcherite nonsense!)

and oh yeah how exactly did the miners go to far ??? yep striking for ur job is rally going to far!

well, my dad actually started off by driving buses and taxi`s before he went to college and trained as a mech. 20 years later he runs a buisness.

and I should also say that yes the miners did go too far, they tried to bring the country to its knees. I am not saying they didnt have a legitimate argument but they went about it in the wrong way, anyway the strike you refer to happened in 1984 when the torys were in power and not labour so I dunno wtf you are talking about, you have gone way off topic because of a minor remark. get a grip.

[revol68]

it doesnt matter how ur dad got his business, Maggie Thatcher was the daughter of a green groccer! And as i said even if ur dad was so working class he mined coal with nowt but a loaf of Hovis and a big mug of tea, he is still wrong regarding strikes. And as nichomach pointed out the worst period for strikes was under the tories. As it is i ididnt go off topic as was responding to ur point about strikes and unions going to far.

and exactly how should the miners have went about making their point? perhaps they should've written letters to the Guardian or Independent or voted Liberal Democrat like ur good self? The miners had a huge amount of public support and if there had of been more militant unions in other sectors of the working class, there wouldve been the possibility of a general strike, as it was the Union leadership did'nt take it far enough, and wished to keep it isolated.

So in considering that the worst period of strikes was under the tories, that u have yet to say how they went too far, except in very broad abstract terms, that u have suggested no alternative means of fighting the attacks of the state on organised labour, u should either go read some labour history or maybe just ask a few more people than ur da about politics.

and i most certainly do have a grip, and most of all i don't have a sad signature involving my name in flames and some bints in bikini's beside it.

[G4Z]

those strikes were never legal, EVER, was never a general ballot so they were wrong. period. as i said I know something about the subect and I think the miners had a valid argument, scargill screwed it up for them because he never held a general ballot. also I agreed that the worst strikes were when the tories came to power, but you cant deny firstly this all started under labour and secondly because of the stratagy she used when dealing with the state of the economy she inherited. I am not a thatcherite at all, I disagree with the way the government at the time dealt with it, was bullying of the highest order, thing is I can imagine blair doing the same...


My point about labour was a reference to how I had belived they would be good and I was told by my dad that they would screw things up, and boy they have screwed things up badly. you yourslef have just been saying that the hutton report was a whitewash and a pile of carp, arent we on the same level here? why do you feel the need to argue such a minor point with me, what do you actually think of the hutton report?

also, I think grek dykes comments today are very telling and I hope that this whole thing will lead to an enquiry about why we went to war. Tony is still trotting out the line that he wants to wait for the ISG even tho the former head of the ISG says he beilves the weapons may never have been there. if the weapons arent there how long are we going to wait for the ISG to say "nope they are not here, no way?" Its a big country could take months or years. Tony is stalling for time, He knows the election is coming and if he can avoid an inqury until then he will be sorted. Hell even bush is now holding an enquiry into why there are no WMD when the intelligence said there were. Why wont our government do the same? Is it possibly because as soon as that happens this whole house of cards is gonna fall down?



EDIT: Those bints are actually the girls from hollyoaks, show some respect

[revol68]

correct me if im wrong but do u or don't u support the working classes right to strike, to me it seems u abstractly say the miners were right but at the same time wrong because they never held a national ballot? this is legal bullfluffy bunny, u either support the workers when they go on strike ooru dont u, cant sit on the fence. didi maggie thatcher call a national ballot? did she not sendin those met pig fluffy bunny to crush the strike, did she not deliberately provoke the strike?

and no we aren't on the same level cos of our opinions on the hutton report, i have no faith in the british state to investigate itselfnevermind prosecute itself. I do not believe the UN is a valid organisation, it is made up of all the national ruling classes and therefore representts those interests not those of the vast majority of the globe. I support no imperialist wars wether they have UN backin or not and I want the destruction of class systems, workers self management, i am a libertarian socialist not some wee liberal who thinks their all left and radical cos they are against one war, if otherwise Chirac and Putin would be.

You also can't see the fake radicalism of the liberal democrats and have failed to notice the common thread we all agree on, which ever party gets into power carries the same policies. Tony Blair is carrying out attacks on the working class that Thatcher couldn't dare have done because she lay the gound work of smashing the working class. The problem therefre lies outside of party manifesto's.. its the very nature of capitalism and the state.

I was opposed to the Iraq war because it meant the murder of thousands of working class people by working class people, i also opposed Saddam but realised that a war by the US would only bring more suffering upo the Iraqi working class,and that the way to bring democracy is organic organising not cruise missiles. U on the other hand seem more worried about legalities, whether it is the UN or miners strikes. To me that reeks of middle class liberalism and i bet u supported the bombing of Kosovo cos it was dressed up in nice humanitarian antifascist rhetoric.

i think ur stances on the miners strike and the UN are morally repugnent. Bombs still killl whether they have UN stamped on them or not!

U also try to get some working class credit cos ur grandad was a miner and ur da is a mechanic but as you say ur dad now owns hs own garage, and therefore he is actually petit bourgeois, a class stuck between the working class and big capital and a class that was major supporters of thatchers onslaught against the working class.

btw don't take this personally it's just how i feel about ur liberal sit on the fence views ur probably a really nice guy.


and Natalie Imbruglia would bitch slap all those Hollyoak ho's!

ive also made it very clear what i feel about the hutton report.It is bullfluffy bunny and was always planned as a sideshow from the continued occupation oof Iraq and the rising casualties there. If an Iraqi or working class soldiers life was even a 1/4 valued in the media as some bearded fluffy bunny, without the courage to put his job on the line to try and stop a war, then we might actually get some critical reporting.

[G4Z]

well, I gotta say there is a lot of anger in you there. you are making assumtions about me here and I gotta say they are all wrong. also , please dont drag my dad into this, I just made a comment that he was right about something so can you leave it? He has worked hard to have what he has now and he still does, he gets dirty with his employees just the same...

I dont give a F*** what "class" you think I am in, for me class means nowt, I still have to get up and go to work every day and I dont feel I belong to any class If anything I am in the "cynical" class.

I might be liberal but I have eyes and ears and I see what goes on. all this stuff you just posted already ran through my head months ago. I know that if the liberals get in within 4 years they will probably have broken all their promises too, my point is that they are the only ones we havent tried yet. TBH, I really dont think we live in a democracy anyway because nothing will ever change and nobody will upset the status quo, things will allways be the same no matter who gets into power (unless I do... because for a start I would investigate who the hell keeps installing traffic lights at stupid locations and if he has shares in the company that makes them! (my own little black helicopter theory)).

I dont know why you think I was against the war on a technicality, I never thought this war was a good idea at any point. I said well before hand it was just gonna kill thousands of muslims and increase the chance of another terrorist attack, not to mention risking our soilders lives and costing billions. (nice going blair ) This has been going on for years in various areas of the world, and I have to say i applaud that Lib Dem MP who said she might have been a suicide bomber, because quite honestly if anybody was subjected to what the palastinians have been put through anybody might do it.

[Butuz]

Any more personal abuse and this thread will just dissapear.

I won't rescue it a second time. Understand revol68?

Butuz

[revol68]

thank u uve proved my point regarding thatcher, she set out to destroy working class solidarity and she suceeded as witnessed in your view that u dont give a fluffy bunny about class. Class is not a figment of the imangination it is very real,u may chose to believe it doesnt affect u. And as for ur da i wasnt having a go, im sure he personally works hard but the point is that he is a small owner and therefore his views will be informed by that, it is not a moral judgement, nor does it mean u r middle class.

And there is a lot of anger yes because the biggest problem in working class communities is that any notion of class or wider social issues has been destroyed by the im all right jack mentality, were everyone looks out for themselves and screws everyone else. Only by realisng the common class interest can the working class begin to sort out problems like anti-social behaviour, drug dealing and in Norhtern Ireland the sectarian issue.

You can stick 2 fingers up a class if u want but if u really want the status quo to change u will have to realise that the core of this society is class,(by that i mean the separation of those that own the worlds resources and those who maintain and work them in technical speak the fact that capital dictates labour) that is why all the governments we have carry out the same fundamental policies.

oh yeah and just to be a fluffy bunny ll thow in a marx quote (tho ull probably tell me Marx was wrong, cos of the USSR, Cuba,china and bla bla bla)

“The state ... will never see in 'the state and the system of society' the source of social maladies. Where political parties exist, each party sees the root of every evil in the fact that instead of itself an opposing party stands at the helm of the state. Even radical and revolutionary politicians seek the root of the evil not in the essential nature of the state but in a definite state form, which they wish to replace with a different state form.”

and please don't take this personally it isnt meant to be, it is a debate over emotive issues not a personal argument, and i have only brought up the persoanl aspects in reply.

the importance of the miners strike was not the details but the wider issue, it was a battle between the idea of social justice and individualist look out for number 1. the miners lost and and so did working class people all over as communities got ripped apart and working class solidarity was replaced with cynical self interest.

the lack of working class awareness is allowing bullfluffy bunny like racism and sectarianism to grow, pitting the working class against each other.

and once again please do not mistake my anger over these issues as anger directed at u personally.

cheers

[G4Z]

appreciated mate, you have some interesting ideas.

Personally I quite agree with your quote, communisim is a nice idea its just a shame that it doesnt work, the reason of course because behind every system there are people. people are selfish by nature. I understand what your saying about solidarity and I admit it I am out for myself, I want to make a good life for me and that is my priority. Having said that Just because its my highest priority does not mean its my only priority.

Personally I take the view that we should abandon class, race religion and all that other carp and just bin it. forget the very idea of it. of course you allways have a power divide and that is basicaly down to the capatitalism model, its basicaly a pyramid with the few in power at the top an the mass of workers at the bottom. The thing is, If some1 is determined enough they can make it to the top of the model and that keeps everybody working (that and needing expensive consumer goods). I think history has shown that this is the most effective model although the russians did have a good stab at communisim but this really follows the same model with a few in power at the top with everybody underneath equal and therefore the workers.

[revol68]

glad we arent wanting to awp each others head off lol

ur point about class being divisive is true but as u also point out there is a class division in society, u can't stop this division by ignoring it just as u can't stamp out racism, sectarianism or sexism by ignoring it. U have to look at where class comes from and how it is perpetuated and in whose interests does it serve. But ultimately the point of working class awareness is to actually destroy the construct of class. Whilst it might seem paradoxial to focus on class in order to destroy it, it is only the working class fighting for their own interests and liberation can actually deliver a classless society. Likewise we don't tell black people to overlook racism in order to remove it.

Ur point about self interest is true we do tend to look out for our own interests. However looking out for one's interests is not straight forward, and in the case of the working class their real interest is in recognising their collective interest, this was exemplified by the miners who sacrificed so much in order to try and save their communities and their fellow miners (not to mention the rest of the working class facing capitalist attacks), they were acting in their interests but as a group not as atomised individuals.

You also correctly point out that capitalism in theory allows anyone to make it and this is why it is a much more fluid and stable system than feudalism or even the State Capitalist ecomonies like the old USSR. However this openness is for the vast majority of the population just abstract theory.

Now the problem with the human nature is not its natural selfishness ( i don't believe we can make moral judgements like that regarding our nature) an indeed history is ripe with people being aultruistic to the point of stupidity, ie dying for ur country, king or religion. the ruling classes are only able to maintain their power because the working class is not selfish enough, it is not seeing self interest as a social thing. For example most people would sacrifice pleanty for a friend, relative , wife, husband or child. Likewise as said earlier working class people have died and killed each other by the millions in the interests of their masters eg the 1st world war.

What is needed therefore is not some great selfless working class but rather a working class which is self interested as a class (enlightened self interest) and this has been shown many times through history, form the Paris Commune, Spain 1936, Hungary 1956 and Paris 1968 not to mention other fine examples were the working class stood proudly together.

Regarding the USSR, well it was a one party dictatorship with a state capitalist econmoy (the state was the one great employer), now how the 1917 revolution ended up as that is a huge other thread, as is the debate over human nature.