Proportional Representation (UK)

[TheAnimus]

I think before we actually have some kind of PR we should look at how communication has greatly changed in the last 100+ years, yet politics hasn't even evolved with the telegraph.

We have this idea that party members vote as prescribed by the whip with often no idea what they are voting on, having not even bothered to read the cover page because they thought it sounded boring.

If we could do something that stops this abhorrent abuse of democracy, whilst still allows for a cabinet to be formed. Then we could look at different methods of representation all together.

[aidanjt]

And yes the suggestion of electronic referenda on each and every issue would result in unmitigated disaster. We hope for informed and capable leaders able to make decisions best in the national interest, not the effective random-number generator of appeasing 60 million gibbering primates by inviting them to text in whether or not they want to bring back hanging, or how to resolve complex economic issues that fewer than 1% of us could even articulate a coherent opinion on. This is why we have Britains Got Talent!

Who's talking about mobile phones? That'd be insecure.

And to be honest, most policy makers know even less about the current state of the world than most of the 60 million gibbering primates, to them e-mail is some kind of trendy and magical memo thingy, the internet is sheer and utter voodoo entirely.

But here's the thing, if a direct democracy is instituted, the clarity and quality of bills must improve for people to digest them, with that aside, the only thing that really changes is who is approving of bills to be enacted.

[j1979]

You again show how little you understand.

The concept your trying to refer to is a 'Zero Sum Game', now because I'm telling you its not, you might decide to say thats because I can't understand such thing, but to me it sounds like you can't understand the concept of a 'Second Order System' and confuse that with a zsg.

Its no different to a manager living of the back of those he manages. If you'd bothered to think about anything I posted in my previous response, or say googled about the history of futures, you would know its by know means perfect and often perverts the cause of the optimisation task its there to solve. An example would be tulip bubble. But then you say there are negative tangible effects.

So its able to impact the plebs negatively but never positively?

I can't believe I'm having this, your point is so clearly bollocks to the hilt, but it shows we have this bitterness towards achievement which is really crippling. But its up there with some of the twonks who were saying they wanted all the 150k+ people to leave the country, good riddance and all that.... Too stupid to grasp that they're cutting off their noise to spite their face.

I work with a lot of trading staff, Its a job I doubt I could do, my mind wanders after 10 hours of straight thinking, let alone the 16+ some of them where putting in. But hey, why don't you just tell yourself they are living off the back of others with their hard work..... If I didn't know better I'd say thats kind of how a community works? People specialise in certain things, those who do the less desirable and harder jobs become scarse so require extra compensation.

Given how investment banking is kind of the coal face of capitalism, if they could avoid paying 50pence to one of the hot shots, they bloody well would. You should have seen the effort I had to go through to get a pay rise despite having the best performance in my peer group by a factor of 3!

you remind me of that Harry Enfield character.. "Tim nice but dim" minus the nice

[TheAnimus]

Yeh, I've been called all sorts of things, but never that one character before!

No you insult a profession which I'm currently supported by, and many of my friends work directly the job your classing with dole scum chavs.

You say they do nothing, I immediately go to my happy place of systems analysis, and use some labels which clearly show how its not a zsg, yet you just keep insulting me, you festizio!

[SiM]

TheAnimus, it's not worth reasoning with these type of people. They are stuck with their, ususally incorrect, beliefs due to misunderstanding or envy. No matter how often they misstate the facts, the world won't change for them, so let them say whatever if it makes them feel better.

[samcross]

you remind me of that Harry Enfield character.. "Tim nice but dim" minus the nice

I'm sorry, but what part of TA's response did you interpret as being "dim"?

Nice comeback btw

[Blaineoliver]

Proportional Representation led up to Nazis taking power, too many small parties forming coalitions that dont work, causing dire conditions that allowed a strong right wing party to take control...

[oolon]

are you saying 1/3 are right of centre or 1/3 agree with a Tory coalition?

I am saying according to a report on the BBC that like other parties the Liberals have two wings in it, one is left of centre (2/3) and the other is right of centre (1/3). I think its not a impossible stretch to believe that not everyone who votes liberal is left thinking (after all I have voted liberal and am not.). As now many agree with a Conservatives coalition no idea, time will tell. The problem is Labour need active support from the Liberals to govern, The Conservatives just need the liberals not to object.

[SeriousSam]

To say this is a pointless argument because no system is perfect is a fallacy. Even if your claim were true some systems would still be clearly superior to others and given that we must adopt one, we should take some care to pick the best one from those available rather than blindly stumbling on under the one we've 'always' had.

Re local representation; you might indeed be of that opinion, but a glance at the speaking and voting record of 'your' MP would very likely reveal you to be wrong. Unless your MP is a front-bench MP (and therefore far more concerned with their career in politics than your local swimming baths) they probably speak once or twice in an average parliament, and whoever they are they vote in line with the party whip. The whip system makes the notion of local representation under our current system a quaint fantasy. And probably, whatever function you seek a local MP to fulfil would perhaps be better performed by a local council with greater powers, which is one of your tory policies anyway isn't it?

I'm not saying that the argument is pointless because no system is perfect, but because there is no way to ensure that is equitable or fair for all. So in reference to the original question PR cannot be the fairest system because it negates the principle of local representation which a significant proportion of the population believe in (though as you point out we don't really have much of it now either).

That's not to say that we can't find a better system to use, and in fact I firmly believe that we should be discussing how we move forward in this respect. However, rather than focussing just on the various existing systems perhaps we should first look at what we actually want from our democracy and then worry about how we achieve it.

[j1979]

I am saying according to a report on the BBC that like other parties the Liberals have two wings in it, one is left of centre (2/3) and the other is right of centre (1/3). I think its not a impossible stretch to believe that not everyone who votes liberal is left thinking (after all I have voted liberal and am not.). As now many agree with a Conservatives coalition no idea, time will tell. The problem is Labour need active support from the Liberals to govern, The Conservatives just need the liberals not to object.

interesting.. so what part of the liberal manifesto do you consider right of centre?

[oolon]

interesting.. so what part of the liberal manifesto do you consider right of centre?

Really I feel like I am feeding the trolls here, so I am going to quit after this one, as your really not interesting in putting any counter arguments just poking fault with I have to say, I notice you didn't respond to my figures, except by claiming all Liberals are lefties. Which really isn't adding enough value for me to continue. I said I was right of centre, I acknowledge the liberals are a left of centre party and I sadly do not have a right of centre on to vote for. I said other people who voted for them could well be too and the BBC put a figure on it (1/3), and I have voted for them because I like a number of the policies. However mostly the part where they are not Labour, and I am in a two way Labour/Liberal marginal does it for me. So bring on PR, the liberals might just get a shock. Frankly though if if the liberals are only ever going to go in government with the Labour party it does not matter how center they are as the result will always be a very left government, they will lose my vote in the future. (not that anyone cares)

[j1979]

Really I feel like I am feeding the trolls here, so I am going to quit after this one, as your really not interesting in putting any counter arguments just poking fault with I have to say, I notice you didn't respond to my figures, except by claiming all Liberals are lefties. Which really isn't adding enough value for me to continue. I said I was right of centre, I acknowledge the liberals are a left of centre party and I sadly do not have a right of centre on to vote for. I said other people who voted for them could well be too and the BBC put a figure on it (1/3), and I have voted for them because I like a number of the policies. However mostly the part where they are not Labour, and I am in a two way Labour/Liberal marginal does it for me. So bring on PR, the liberals might just get a shock. Frankly though if if the liberals are only ever going to go in government with the Labour party it does not matter how center they are as the result will always be a very left government, they will lose my vote in the future. (not that anyone cares)

honestly, i was/am genuinely interested. I struggle with my right wing views that i have on some subjects, and also consider myself left liberal. I was just tring to get to the point that none of us are represented by 1 party and putting forward a case for coalition governments.

i am sorry if you thought i was unnecessarily aggressive or that i did not care what you had to say.. for that i apologise

[acetoo]

Proportional representation is a must. This Alternative Vote thing is to better than first past the post it totally misses the point.

[JPreston]

Yes, AV is another cop-out from the LibDems. The nebulous undefined voting reform we were promised going into the election, we can now see will amount to nothing more than Tory gerrymandering (definite) and AV (subject to referendum). AV is not PR, it is no better than FPTP in fact under many scenarios it's actually less proportional than FPTP.

So if you happen to subscribe to the crazy idea that the result of an election should be in any way proportional to the actual votes cast, there is no way you can vote in favour of it. Just the same as there is no way to vote for a reduction in (or even a stop to the gleeful expansion of) state-funding of religious schools - the very existence of which is probably the single greatest scandal in UK govt - or evidenced-based drug laws, or any other issue where political consensus marches in lock-step with the tabloids rather than either reality or public opinion. And all modern science knows for sure about tabloids are that they contain frequently untrue propaganda, written for idiots with a reading age of approximately 8, who number in the millions and just happen to be overwhelmingly Tory voters