Coward's Tactics

[Blub2k]

At least the Israelis aren't targetting innocent people. Unless you count all the terrorists as innocent?

Eh wrong, read up on the situation , if you need educating on it I would be more than willing to attempt to help. Speaking of only terrorists when speaking of Palestinians is ignorance, just as tarring all jews with the same brush would be anti-semitic.

Also i think you can hear a helicopter gunship coming, i don't think you can hear a suicide bomber untill its too late.

Wrong again, tut tut.

[Blub2k]

Unless you count all the terrorists as innocent?

You do know who Menachim Begin was dont you?

[Shogun]

Ok maybe i should have rephrased that. Israel aren't targetting innocent civilians ON PURPOSE. They don't try to find the most crowded place and then try and blow up as many people as possible. There was a cease fire called either a few months or weeks ago and i wonder if you could tell me who striked first after this?
I am actually jewish from my fathers side of the family. I have lived in the UK all my life. My father was involved in the second world war and has also lived in Israel for about 10 years. After i have finished university i do want to go to Israel and join the IDF for a couple of years (which my father also did). Does this make me a future terrorist?

[Shogun]

On a futher point i think that if the Palestinians want their land back then the Israelis should bulldoze over any agricultural/building work they have done on the land. Then let the palestinians see if they still want the land.

[Blub2k]

Ok maybe i should have rephrased that. Israel aren't targetting innocent civilians ON PURPOSE. They don't try to find the most crowded place and then try and blow up as many people as possible. There was a cease fire called either a few months or weeks ago and i wonder if you could tell me who striked first after this?
I am actually jewish from my fathers side of the family. I have lived in the UK all my life. My father was involved in the second world war and has also lived in Israel for about 10 years. After i have finished university i do want to go to Israel and join the IDF for a couple of years (which my father also did). Does this make me a future terrorist?

I believe that Israel do target innocent civilians daily, that it what collective punishment is.
You should know who Menachim Begin is then, how was terrorist spelled again?
In my eyes it makes you worse than a terrorist because you have a choice, potential child killer definitely. Did anyone ever tell you about the campaign of breaking arms when children were caught throwing stones at IDF? Now IDF they could teach the Palestinians something about cowardice, probably looking through cross hairs from a sniper post.

[Blub2k]

On a futher point i think that if the Palestinians want their land back then the Israelis should bulldoze over any agricultural/building work they have done on the land. Then let the palestinians see if they still want the land.

Well you'll make a good settler then, you already have the mentality.

[Shogun]

Well you'll make a good settler then, you already have the mentality.

No, i just beleive that part of the reason the Palestinians want the land so badly is because of all the amount of work the Jewish settlers have put into it.

potential child killer definitely.

Surely no sane person would shoot children just for fun? I know i personally wouldn't.

Now IDF they could teach the Palestinians something about cowardice, probably looking through cross hairs from a sniper post.

Im sure if the roles were reversed right now then the palestinians would shoot as many people as possible. Don't you think so?

I really do think most of this stems from what the Palestinian children are taught in school and also by their parents. They are brought up to hate the Israelis from a very young age and this has been documented. Also don't you think that the suicide bombers had a choice to blow up kids or not?

[GreenPiggy]

No, i just beleive that part of the reason the Palestinians want the land so badly is because of all the amount of work the Jewish settlers have put into it.

That is ridiculous. I imagine they would be happy if the Israelis took down what they had built and rebuilt the countless homes that have been razed by the IDF.

Palestinians weren't always suicide bombers, it seems that the situation has come about through the continued support of the US for the indefensible Israeli position since the fifties. How many years has Israel had to abide by UN resolutions?

[directhex]

both sides are boiling with rage and hate, fighting both sides of an endless war.

the israeli government, the palestinian authority, it doesn't matter. the sides hate each other to the extent that there will never be peace between them. palestinian blows self up in crowded israeli street, idf bulldozes & kills palestinians in their sleep. it's a cycle of hate. the israelis are using tried & tested nazist techniques, the palestinians are using tried & tested geurilla techniques.

they hate each other, that's not gonna change

the objection i & many others feel is that whilst the palestinians have to fight their corner with dynamite , living in shanty towns, the israelis recieve several billion dollars of military aid per year from the usa to continue their opression.

if the israelis simply wanted to be left alone, then they would have stopped at building every barrier they've built in the past - rather than bulldozing outwards claiming they need the space. keep pushing, what do you expect? the israelis WANT the bloodshed, they really do. the palestinians are angry, desparate, and want to truly hurt the israelis for what they have done. it's called "revenge".

i don't condone the killing of civilians, regardless of the circumstances. it's uncivilized. however, when one of two bastards has a stick and one has an AK47, you can't stand back & claim it's fair.

oh, and will people please stop linking israel to judaism? most genuine orthodox jews have no love for sharon's nazist regime. judaism is a religion. israel is a country. i live in england, not christian.

[Shogun]

"however, when one of two bastards has a stick and one has an AK47, you can't stand back & claim it's fair."

Don't mean to be picky but the IDF doesn't use the AK47. Does that mean they have the stick? I get your point anyway What both sides need i think is a change in leadership. The palestinians also need to get rid of arafat. Even though he isn't in the government he still seems to be in the news.

[directhex]

a stick & some miscelaneous item made by Israel Military Industries then. bleh, so much for analogies.

[turkster]

Also i think you can hear a helicopter gunship coming, i don't think you can hear a suicide bomber untill its too late.

What are you going to do, run?

Just because the Isreal's use 'conventional' weapons does not mean they don't target or kill civilians. An air strike is a suposedly clean way to take out a target. I suspect it's considered 'clean' because you don't need to get your hands dirty.

Would you have condemned the French resistance if they had started blowing up Nazis during WWII?
The only difference is that the Israelis have been there for 40 years, not 4

Who said civilians were not targeted by the allies in WW2. 100 of thousands were killed in the air raids which were carried out by both sides. In may cases the target was civilians. After all what else can your target be when you drop bombs on a built up area?

The thing is that the cause justifies the means. I doubt you would have found many English complain about the terrible civilian deaths casued by British bombs during WW2.

Consequently i'm sure both sides of the Palestinian/Isreali conflict can justify their means. To us of course it looks completely different.

[turkster]

a stick & some miscelaneous item made by Israel Military Industries then. bleh, so much for analogies.

Probably one of these


or one of the multitude of Isreali made guns that can be seen on this site.

[Shogun]

"An air strike is a suposedly clean way to take out a target. I suspect it's considered 'clean' because you don't need to get your hands dirty. "

A strike from a helicopter gunship is considered clean because you can actually target who you are trying to kill where as the palestinian way is just indescriminate killing.

[turkster]

Just because you can descriminate who you are killing does not in itself make killing any less wrong.

The problem is that both sides kill civilians. How exactly they do it is relatively irrelevant.

[Galant]

Wow! There's a lot of bashing back and forth here.

A word to all you who would oversimplify the issue. The Israelis cannot be simply as 'occupiers'. The situation is a very complex one with both sides having good arguments to defend their presence there. Ultimately though, focus needs to be placed on how to get to a solution from where it's at, not complain about how things got there.

Both sides do things that are way out of line I'm sure. However, there seems to be such a bias against Israel, and all of the sins of the Palestinians seem to be forgotten.

The fact is, targeting civilians, women, children, and causing such general terror among the populous is immoral and wrong. You might talk about US support of Israel, but within that 'support' there are many clamouring to the support of Palestine. Listen to yourselves; those who would see Israel removed from Palestine, and who say that the mother and her children who were brutally killed recently - deserved it. The UN would love nothing more than to end the conflict and pull the US out of Israel along with Israeli military strength. The reason they cannot is because Palestine prevents them. By breaking cease-fires, bombing buses and discos and restaurants, by maintaining the perceived attitude of "nothing but death to the Israelis", they leave the UN no choice but allow Israel to defend themselves. If the Palestinians quit, would the UN tolerate it if Israel broke cease-fires or committed murders? I don't think so. It would be just the excuse they needed to clamp down on Israel.

Now as I said, I'm sure Israel do more than 'defense', but whilst there are many within Israel, within America, within the UK and within the UN standing in condemnation of Israeli immorality and murder, there seems to be no such stance on the Palestinian side.

I really do wonder about the Arab mindset at times. I don't think it's inconceivable that they will not be happy without the total removal of Israel, possibly even their destruction. They do seem to love hate and death. I'm sure it's not al of them, but it does seem to be a good portion of them, and the majority of their leadership. I imagine that upbringing and anti-israel education plays a large part - but perhaps that's something that Palestine can change to work towards peace with Israel. If that's what they really want.

Back to the original question - Palestinian suicide tactics aimed at the public is wrong. It is immoral and unacceptable. And though it can be argued that you have to be brave to blow yourself up for your cause, could it also be argued that you have to be braver to stop the flow of random murder and choose the longer, more frustrating, but better path of peace and support via the UN etc.???