Religion: A force for good or ill?

[Smudger]

Nor have catholics done ill in the name of protestantism, or hinduism etc.

Not sure of the relevance. Catholics have done ill in the name of Catholicism, Hindus, etc.

Atheists have done bad, but not in the name of atheism.

[TheAnimus]

So is science, art, football, etc. All have been used as rational for ill, that does not make them inherently a force for ill.

Your comparing religion to football?

I guess both do make a lot of money from their followers.

I have never, once, ever, heard of football been an excuse to burn someone for talking about the planets revolving round the sun. Not even in Millwall.

Science people have had say eugenics, where they have used theories to validate their ideology, however they aren't able to squirm and hide behind "SkyFairy said so" or similar. We are not talking about abstract things here, there are still many people, often with positions of power, who seek to derail scientific progress with their bible backings.

There are going to be bad people, it's not as if that will disappear, but when you try and test morality, we can see that the bible hasn't helped. Gays, still many people clutching a bible say persecute them. Black people, the civil movement in the US was heavily justified by religion. It's hard to form a grown up argument as to why its OK without some "it's our divine right, stop questioning it" ultimately it is this aspect, that is unique to it. It is a belief, but one which can not be questioned by someone else.

If I said I believe in Eugenics, lets do away with the north of england, you'd expect me to be able to justify it and be open to debate.

What if the only justification I offered was "Because God says its the thing to do".

This is why there is such a difference, this is why AFAIK no one has ever burnt a scientist to death, for their atheist beliefs. Sure, nut jobs will have killed people over petty arguments. But we call them just that, nutjobs, because they believe they have a right to kill other people for no reason. Religion is just another label for that, but one which has respect.

[wasabi]

Nor have catholics done ill in the name of protestantism, or hinduism etc.

The Inquisition?

The Borgias?

Witch hunts?

Crusades?

Preventing birth control causing massive overpopulation and destruction of planet's resources?

Factions in N Ireland killing in name of religion?

[TheAnimus]

Preventing use of physical barrier contraception. The death toll for this alone discredits the whole religion to me, they reject scientific method for doctrine which statistically just doesn't work. How anyone can support this action is beyond me.

[peterb]

The catholic church doesn't 'prevent' the use of physical/barrier contraception any more than it 'prevents' sexual relationships outside marriage,

It opposes both, but a catholic who exercises his (or her) free will to engage in sexual relationships outside marriage is just as capable of exercising their free will to use barrier methods of contraception.

However, I will agree that the catholic church's opposition to artificial means of contraception may contributee to poverty and over-population in countries with a devout but less well educated catholics population.

[TheAnimus]

The catholic church doesn't 'prevent' the use of physical/barrier contraception any more than it 'prevents' sexual relationships outside marriage

Utter dangling fun sacks.

They have been directly involved in FUD campaigns of all levels, from telling people "they don't work" to "you'll burn in hell if you use one".

If there was an ounce of honesty in their policy, they would be a simple case of "it's better to abstain, if you can't, use a rubber" instead they go the otherway, actively blocking aid workers. I knew a couple of friends from uni who went to work in this area, they were lucky enough not to need money for life and so they formed a trio and dedicated themselves to charity, one is now in effect a make-shift doctor. But I digress, the point is, directly sanctioned by the location church, they have had their sex ed supplies burnt, one even had her speculum destroyed in front of them. This was done under the eyes of the local minister, but worse yet 'white people' were watching. She has no idea who they are, doesn't want to find out because it might hinder the other health plans they give.

Just look at Mother Teresa if you want to see another horror of church doctrine.

[peterb]

The catholic church regards sex outside marriage as a more serious sin than the use of contraception. If catholics are prepared to risk 'burning in hell' for sex outside marriage, they aren't going to worry about the use of condoms. The catholic church can't prevent either, however much it might condemn both practices.

I know catholics in this country who cheerfully ignore catholic teaching on both subjects. In poorer countries there may be more influence, but that may be as much to do with culture and women's rights than catholic doctrine.

Catholicism may have had a role there as well, but the issues are not as simplistic as you like to portray.

[TheAnimus]

Catholic church regards sex outside marriage as a more serious sin than the use of contraception. If catholics are prepared to risk 'burning in hell' for sex outside marriage, they aren't going to worry about the use of condoms.. The catholic church can't prevent either, however much it might condemn both practices.

The church has had officials going on record to say that aids spreads through the barrier of a condom.

They are possible the most evil force in sex education that charities are doing in Africa at the moment.

They ignore science, the WHO and everyone else to force their agenda. They are responsible for horrific scale of suffering a illness. Over 2 million people die a year because of AIDS, over half of them are in Africa. When you consider the global population this is really scary. Entire swaves of africa have 20% to 5% HIV+ rates.

The church doesn't promote abstinence then condoms, they discourage condoms because they fear that condom use would discourage abstinence. Their morals over-ride reality, medical science, statistics and economics.

I never understand why people are OK with this. Assuming condoms could have prevented only 5% use, that is 60,000 deaths per year due to the church. Some people suggest they are 80%+ effective at discouraging condom use in non-north africa. That would be about 900,000 deaths per year. GO TEAM JESUS!

[Zak33]

to be religious is one thing

to belive in religion is another


and a third is to ignore it.

I am in the middle.... and I love it.

I have no religious beliefs BUT I make no bones about this.. I love other people "believing"

becuase I like to understand humans as best I can, and I enjoy people being happy in their life

0iD's reply above is finest..... spiritualism can help.. (and God need not play a part.) but the Christian Crusades and a terror attack on Western Society by a muslim faction horrify me in equal measure.

[melon]

to be religious is one thing

to belive in religion is another


and a third is to ignore it.

I am in the middle.... and I love it.

I have no religious beliefs BUT I make no bones about this.. I love other people "believing"

becuase I like to understand humans as best I can, and I enjoy people being happy in their life

0iD's reply above is finest..... spiritualism can help.. (and God need not play a part.) but the Christian Crusades and a terror attack on Western Society by a muslim faction horrify me in equal measure.

keep in mind , religion as we know it now has changed a lot ( western )

Im happy where I am , and dont mind opposing beliefs because it creates a balance I think is necessary sometimes like your appear to be saying above.

What I want to see is Science and Spiritual unite , because right now I think the lack of this consciousness has been Sciences biggest downfall i.e. in catering to business ,governments that are just abusing technology to suit themselves. ( and at our expense )

it needs to end or we will , and we're already more than halfway there..

[melon]

The church has had officials going on record to say that aids spreads through the barrier of a condom.

They are possible the most evil force in sex education that charities are doing in Africa at the moment.

They ignore science, the WHO and everyone else to force their agenda. They are responsible for horrific scale of suffering a illness. Over 2 million people die a year because of AIDS, over half of them are in Africa. When you consider the global population this is really scary. Entire swaves of africa have 20% to 5% HIV+ rates.

The church doesn't promote abstinence then condoms, they discourage condoms because they fear that condom use would discourage abstinence. Their morals over-ride reality, medical science, statistics and economics.

I never understand why people are OK with this. Assuming condoms could have prevented only 5% use, that is 60,000 deaths per year due to the church. Some people suggest they are 80%+ effective at discouraging condom use in non-north africa. That would be about 900,000 deaths per year. GO TEAM JESUS!

What we need is someone to go over there and give them demonstration , Jesus is away on business , so we'll just have to send you instead.

Your aim is to decrease the population by f _ _ _ _ _ _ them over till theyr understand theirs no harmful effects other than burning bush to be had.

[kalniel]

The Inquisition?

The Borgias?

Witch hunts?

Crusades?

Preventing birth control causing massive overpopulation and destruction of planet's resources?

Factions in N Ireland killing in name of religion?

Indeed, in none of those cases were catholics doing ill under the banner of protestantism or hinduism. They were doing ill under their own.

[TheAnimus]

Indeed, in none of those cases were catholics doing ill under the banner of protestantism or hinduism. They were doing ill under their own.

Seriously, opposing birth control isn't due to the catholicisim? Last I checked CoE were not opposed to it, instead encouraged it, just only as part of their moral idelogy (ie, marriage, abstinence etc).

[kalniel]

Seriously, opposing birth control isn't due to the catholicisim?

I'm saying it's due to catholicism, not protestantism or hinduism.

[wasabi]

Indeed, in none of those cases were catholics doing ill under the banner of protestantism or hinduism. They were doing ill under their own.

Thought your post was a typo. Now I just can't see what point you're trying to make - catholics aren't doing stuff in the name of protestantism or hinduism? So? Huh?

[kalniel]

Thought your post was a typo. Now I just can't see what point you're trying to make - catholics aren't doing stuff in the name of protestantism or hinduism? So? Huh?

Meaning you can't tar everyone with the same brush. It's not anything inherent in religion that causes ill in those cases, or all religion would be causing ill like that as well.